Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Freelance Henchman]

Wasn't there something about the smoke from the smoke bottle forcing Fort saves or start choking (and taking nonlethal damage at some point)? If that is indeed the case, what's the maximum time anyone can be expected to be able to hide in the smoke before they go unconscious, after which they are easy prey for anything that wanders into the smoke?

[Signmaker]

Wasn't there something about the smoke from the smoke bottle forcing Fort saves or start choking (and taking nonlethal damage at some point)? If that is indeed the case, what's the maximum time anyone can be expected to be able to hide in the smoke before they go unconscious, after which they are easy prey for anything that wanders into the smoke?

If there's one decent thing about the monk, it's probably the saves. Such saves should be easily made by the monk, though I do believe the choking was contested. Difference in opinions of wording. Left moot.

So, about Arcane Sight....doesn't that almost completely negate any hiding advantage? All the caster has to do is flit around on his flying steed, wait for a blip on his aura radar, and then Glitterdust the fool.

As to the druid being the only one reliably able to dispurse smoke, are you serious?

The bottle must be resealed by a command word, after which the smoke dissipates normally. A moderate wind (11+ mph) disperses the smoke in 4 rounds; a strong wind (21+ mph) disperses the smoke in 1 round.

Gust of Wind. 50 mph. There's also Wind Wall, that won't dispurse the wind but still contain it.

OR. The wizard can invest its many, many skill ranks (high Int, whodathunkit), and throw some in UMD. More than you possibly can. And guess what? I'm preeeetty sure the wizard can make the UMD check for a Control Winds spell. And hey, if the wizard has ranks in UMD? Might as well toss some wands to the familiar too. But that's just me.

The problem, as it has always been with the monk, is that any item it uses to try and get an advantage is easily countered by the wizard. Be it scrolls, wands, or simply investing low level spell slots to decent counter tactics, the monk is hard-pressed to gain the advantage it needs. After all, with a Phantom Steed in play, the monk may never even reach the wizard.





May I humbly suggest a possibility? This is inspired by another thread that came up a few days ago.

Bring some shuriken to the fight. Not the normal ones, of course, but enchanted ones. Possibly Spell-Storing ones, if the presiding DM will alow them (Filled up, preferably). Of course, I doubt that such a practice would be allowed, because all it would take is a Scorching Ray shuriken or three to take out the wizard. At least, though, a monk with Far Shot can throw a shuriken up to 100 feet away. That's something, right?

[Frost]

@Frost: I kindly ask you to stop make assertions that already have been shown wrong. The joker monk outgrapples most creatures in levels 1-8. It keeps up in damage output with fighters and rogues at higher levels. And the upcoming duels will show how well he fares vs wizard casters. Definitely the joker monk will not always use the smoking bottle and run away. Please stop maintining such narrowing down of a long build description and 50+ pages of discussion.
If you still do not believe, pick a monster outside the core rules of CR 1-20, and I'll show you how good the chances of the joker monk of the same level are.

I was actually just referring to your only response to full casters, not to all monsters.

That said, I'll happily send a Giant or two your way with non-associated Cleric levels.

But instead of the BS where you tell us how you would so easily defeat X, how about you play your level X Monk against my CR X creature. If you want me to use none-core, I'll find some crazy golem or dragon or something and we'll fight it out.

[Andras]

Re: smoke

Smoke Effects
A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

For the record, a lv16 Giamonk's Fort save is +11 without items (as determined a few pages ago). So that's not particularly an issue unless this really drags on.

How the giamonk sitting in the smoke is planning to spot the wizard better than divination spells would is beyond me, though...he might well choke to unconsciousness first (unless he decides to stop the bottle, in which case this is a moot point).

Also, because I missed it before:

The joker monk outgrapples most creatures in levels 1-8

Levels 1-8 (the cutoff is closer to 5 or 6, usually, but regardless) are usually considered much more balanced in general than levels beyond. On top of this, I'm not entirely convinced it still couldn't be done better by a fighter with enchanted armor spikes. Hell, you could give him cross-class UMD too and use all the same tricks, but without the MAD.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Hmmm. I checked the general AoO rules. Indeed grappling is listed in the table as one of the actions triggering the AoO based on being able to threaten (btw in that same table, grapple is EXPLICITLY listed as taking the place of regular attacks including more attacks in full attack; so much for being able to flurry in a grapple). So the centipede would be able to grapple from 20ft reach without triggering AoO...or rather, not, since the enlarged monk with a spiked chain has a reach of 20ft as well. So, yes, while I now think that the grapple AoO is dependent also on reach, please, I beg of you all, drop this centipede thing.

- Giacomo

emphasis mine

Your interpretating this part of the text wrong, it is about initiating grapples, and yes you can use your flurry to initiate grapples, it however says nothing about what can or can't be done in a grapple.

[Arakune]

@ryuan: the idea to summon several creatures for giving bonuses by joining the grapple is also a good idea, but the more rounds the caster spends in summoning, the more vulnerable he'll be to joker monk counteratactics. I'd not recommend it.- Giacomo

First, it's not recommended for core conjurers as I already posted, thanks for repeating my point. Second, this is a duel with two buff rounds, more than enough to summon the centipede.
Third, for a pure conjurer/summoner, augment summoning and a ring of mighty summons make incredible sense, and as a conjurer you may want to invest in transmutation spells. Haste, Bull's Strenght, slow...

Or, if you don't prepared then, from scrolls, wands or staffs.

[Signmaker]

emphasis mine

Your interpretating this part of the text wrong, it is about initiating grapples, and yes you can use your flurry to initiate grapples, it however says nothing about what can or can't be done in a grapple.

You know, I don't think that part was ever resolved when it first came up on page #(What, you expect me to actually leaf back through?).

The question would be, then, are the sub-options listed in grapple (for when you actually grapple) considered "Special Attack Options", and are thus applicable to a flurry? Or is it that only the initiation of a grapple can be flurried?

[Eldritch_Ent]

I've always interpreted it as "The initial grapple attempts may be flurried, but once you're grappled everything else is a special action."

[Griffin131]

You know, I don't think that part was ever resolved when it first came up on page #(What, you expect me to actually leaf back through?).

The question would be, then, are the sub-options listed in grapple (for when you actually grapple) considered "Special Attack Options", and are thus applicable to a flurry? Or is it that only the initiation of a grapple can be flurried?

Only the initial grapple check can be flurried, as once you're "in" a grapple, you are explicitly limited by your Base Attack Bonus, not your Flurry of Blows Modified Base Attack Bonus.

[Signmaker]

Only the initial grapple check can be flurried, as once you're "in" a grapple, you are explicitly limited by your Base Attack Bonus, not your Flurry of Blows Modified Base Attack Bonus.

Good to know.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Yep it's true, by RAW you can't flurry in a grapple, however by RAW you can't speak in a grapple unless it's part of the verbal component of a spell(although this is a very strict reading of RAW), and in the grapple challenge(still looking for players btw) we allowed it anyway as it is reasonable to give one of the weakest classes in the game a bit of help.
If I would create a monk fix I'd also change this ruling as part of it.

[Sir Giacomo]

emphasis mine

Your interpretating this part of the text wrong, it is about initiating grapples, and yes you can use your flurry to initiate grapples, it however says nothing about what can or can't be done in a grapple.

Ah, you are correct, that part is truly about the initiating grapple section - since it refers to the AoO entry (and grappling checks themselves do not trigger AoO). That you can flurry grapple checks, though, is already proven elsewhere (see my FAQ in the guide, it refers to the PHB, the 3.5 FAQ, and the Rules Compendium).
You can houserule to not allow it, but it should have no place when discussing the joker monk here, which is based on the core rules.

@mostlyharmful:
It's a pity, after all that I have posted and written in the guide itself you appear not to see ANY potential in the joker monk to have a chance vs a wizard. It's best to wait for the duels then.

Just some more general remarks (also answering some of Vexxation's concerns, welcome to the thread btw):
The belief that casters (in particular the arcane kind) are overtly powerful is a delusion that comes from not applying tall the rules, or not playing the encounters of the group to full potential.
Sure, the wizard has more MAGIC. But the PERMANENT, NON-DISPELLABLE abilities for combat (hp, base saves, BAB, combat feats, spc abilites, class skill choices) are all on the sides of non-casters.
So what happens is that the arcane caster first has to make up for ALL of these shortcomings to even survive, then as he rises in level, to compete in combat. The strength of an arcane caster, the way I also read the Batman's guide by logicninja is to buff, strategically plan, control, use divinations, and deceive the enemy. But (and I know I'll receive tons of opposition to this), I guess he is weaker in the levels 1-10 in terms of combat than the non-caster classes. Still, many posters around here believe the wizard is not batman - but superman. And this imo is not backed by the rules and how the game assumed to play out by the rules.

Dozens of pages ago there were questions by Cenghiz about scenarios, one for a lvl 4 party (attacked by dire wolves), another for a 5-member lvl 10 party attacked by 7 hieracosphinxes, to see how the joker monk would fare. I only did the first one (which convinced Cenghiz that the joker monk is a viable build also for normal adventuring).
For the lvl 10 encounter I had difficulty imagining a level 10 wizard walking (or even overland flying) with his group and surviving the initial surprise attack of this creatures able to see in the dark and attacking from hidden positions in a dungeon. Only hour/lvl buffs can help a wizard fairly reliably vs these challenges on an adventure/in a dungeon/wherever. (Darkvision finally came to my mind, with which the wizard might have had some chance to act first).

The problem starts where wizard players only learn the nice, powerful offense spells, but do not raise up their defense first - and this happens in my view because DMs normally are faced with the decision: if I let this encounter play out as it should be, the wizard will be killed right away. I can't have that, so he escapes (relatively or even not all) unscathed and can influence it greatly with his offense.
- So there hardly is ever any surprise (the funny idea that a spot check is only there to set the DISTANCE of the encounter, ah will I ever recover...)
- enemies will not foil spellcasting in the many ways available (even mundane, check out the guide)
- spells are considered gained back automatically overnight and are always enough for all encounters (making the spells/day limit of the rules rather superfluous)
- archers, the great casterbane, are allegedly stopped by a simple windwall (even flying, when the windwall cannot be to protect since it needs to rest on the ground)
- encounters are set in such a way that an enemy will never retreat/regroup to attack when the advantage is theirs (and the spells of the wizards are over).
etc.

The result is predictable: the wizard player believes he can get away with everything. Or worse, it convinces him it's great to post a wizard class thread termed "GOD" and looking down on all other classes, as done in the WoTC optimisation boards.
It is only this kind of play which I think can lead to gross misperceptions that wizards simply fly up and "rain death from above" and same level CR mean nothing for them the moment they get fly and invisiblity (hey guys, these spells are min/lvl duration!!! And besides, an increasing number of opponents get fly, see invisibiltiy, high listen skill, ranged attacks or spells of their own).

The problem is that the moment someone points out these obvious misperceptions (and I'm not the only one, even in this thread) and also supplies an allegedly weak class with all the means to exploit the many wizard weaknesses (or those of other casters), it is met not only with objective arguments, but with with highly emotional resistance.
What is apparently especially difficult to accept for those who believe in wizard uberness is that according to the rules (although not often applied on the boards), magic is actually quite easily available also to non-casters via fellow pcs, npc casting (including cohorts via leadership feat) and magic items (including those only usable with UMD, but which provide very cheap access to ALL 1-4 level spells).
Meaning, the big alleged monopoly of casters on magic isnt' really one.

I hope that at one point or another some of you will at least try out some of what I posted, like DMfromtheAbyss has announced (DMfromtheAbyss, I'll PM to you the builds as soon as the duels have started).

- Giacomo

[Frosty]

we allowed it anyway as it is reasonable to give one of the weakest classes in the game a bit of help.

Someone that needs to speak...Truenamer?

[Fenix_of_Doom]

I didn't want to go into this subject in the grapple thread, but I have no qualms with settling this matter here,

Well let's disassemble your FAQ then

Spoiler

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Throughout this thread, you'll find a lot of denial, sometimes based on different playing experience, but sometimes also on rules misperceptions. This lists tries to clarify the latter. I already once did a summary after 32 pages.
Basically, many posters started their criticism based on assumptions that by now I proved to be false. And still they never change their views, which is in part responsible for the length of this thread.

NOTE: For general monk and core game misperceptions and fallacies (imo) check below the chapter II.2. "Monk Myths"

1. Can the monk flurry his grappling checks?
Yes. More grappling attempts are based on base attack bonus, and the monk's flurry results in a modified base attack bonus (see the monk class description). Check also the 3.5 FAQ p. 20 which clearly outlines grappling as a possibility in a flurry to do in place of an attack.
And for those remaining doubters, Lord Silvanos is quoting the Rules Compendium to support the notion that you can flurry in a grapple.

As elegantly displayed by a previous poster modBaB=!BaB so if a piece of text states you only get extra attacks from BaB than modBaB has no effect.
FAQ's are nice, but contain errors, most importantly, they are not a part of RAW, I've said before I think allowing FoB in a grapple is a good house rule, but we are arguing RAW here so you're out of luck.

Now for the quote from Lord Silvanos:

A creature that has a high enough base attack bonus can use a fullround action to make a grapple check for every extra attack its base attack bonus would allow it if it were a character. That means such a creature can make two grapple checks if its base attack bonus is +6 to +10, three if +11 to +15, and four if +16 or higher.

This mentions the exact opposite of what you claim, it specificly mentions that only higher BaB can give extra attacks, which is supported by the SRD:

Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.

On top of that Lord Silvanos actually said:

So under a very literal interpretation of RAW the answers to the following questions would be:
Q: Can FoB grant an extra grapple action?
A: No.

I think ideally the RAW should have made greater allowance for other actions in a grapple and I think ideally the answer would have been:
Q: Can FoB grant an extra grapple action?
A: Yes.

In other word, by RAW no FoB in grapple, at the table: allow FoB in grapple.
Good job on mispresenting his words though.

[Griffin131]

- archers, the great casterbane, are allegedly stopped by a simple windwall (even flying, when the windwall cannot be to protect since it needs to rest on the ground)

................|...mage
................|...
archer........|...

Oh look, the wall is on the ground AND between the mage and the archer! Whoda thunk it?!

[Sir Giacomo]

Fenix_of_Doom,

you're simply wrong.
1) A modified BAB is still a BAB (a modified car is still a car, a modified computer is still a computer, etc.)
2) I did not misinterpret Lord_Silvanos. He said under "a very literal translation of RAW" and clearly signalled that he would read and apply it otherwise to avoid inconsistencies. Imo it's not a even problem, since the modified BAB entry and the 3.5 FAQ clarify the matter entirely.

The fun part is: basically, we are of the same opinion: the monk can flurry in a grapple.
Only that you wish to appear very generous by "allowing" the monk to use his flurry for grapple checks, although the PHB and the 3.5 FAQ clearly point out it's RAW.

Will not be able to post until Monday most likely.
So the debate continues then!

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

Round 1

................|...mage
................|...
archer........|...


Round 2
................|...mage
................|...
................|....archer


Oh look, the archer just went through the wall and continues shooting? Wow!

- Giacomo

[Griffin131]

Round 1

................|...mage
................|...
archer........|...


Round 2
mage.........|...
................|...
................|....archer

Fixed. Oh, and a modified BAB is not a BAB.

Buy a car. Modify the car by adding a turbo. Take your car in for warranty work after you blow the motor. Since the modified car is fundamentally different from the original car, you won't get the warranty work. Modifying something means it is fundamentally different from what it was originally.

edit:
To go with rules instead of money...

Millions of people in the US are fans of Nascar. If the rule for a car to compete is an unmodified intake, and the intake gets modified... you can no longer compete. If the rule calls for a base attack bonus, and you have a modified base attack bonus, you can't compete.

[Frost]

Round 1

................|...mage
................|...
archer........|...


Round 2
................|...mage
................|...
................|....archer


Oh look, the archer just went through the wall and continues shooting? Wow!

Oh look, the archer doesn't get a full attack, and now he cries because he can't penetrate DR, or hit the displaced Wizard, or really anything, including kill the Wizard if he somehow could hit him, since it's one arrow.

So are you going to take me up on my MM versus Joker Monk of same CR challenge?

[Ulzgoroth]

Er, to be fair, that response only denies a full attack, since they can step through the wall and then shoot.

Actually, not even that since they can stand next to the wall and 5-foot step through it if you're on the wrong side. (though not on the round immediately after the wall goes up)

I think Giacomo is probably underrating the usability of Wind Wall, but that there is not a good argument. You need to somehow make crossing the wall difficult.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Fenix_of_Doom,

you're simply wrong.
1) A modified BAB is still a BAB (a modified car is still a car, a modified computer is still a computer, etc.)

Well it boils down to that then; is BaB the same as modBaB and how far can you modify before it's no longer BaB, to go from your example, if I replace the wheels of a car for skis and remove the engine, is it still a car? what if I made a hovercraft out of it? or an airplane?

To conclude the way I read the PHB the table is just there for easy reference and the wording "the modified base attack bonus is displayed" simply says the numbers in the table represent your BaB modified by FoB.

2) I did not misinterpret Lord_Silvanos. He said under "a very literal translation of RAW" and clearly signalled that he would read and apply it otherwise to avoid inconsistencies. Imo it's not a even problem, since the modified BAB entry and the 3.5 FAQ clarify the matter entirely.

1 well he never said FoB is possible per RAW, so that's were your wrong.
2 although this is interpretation on my end, when I read his msg I get the feeling the "very literal interpretation" referred more to the speaking and manoeuvre using as those are simply not included in the text as options and not so much the not getting attacks from anything but BaB clause.

The fun part is: basically, we are of the same opinion: the monk can flurry in a grapple.
Only that you wish to appear very generous by "allowing" the monk to use his flurry for grapple checks, although the PHB and the 3.5 FAQ clearly point out it's RAW.

Yes we are, funny how that works isn't it?

[Frosty]

Well, he doesn't really need a full-attack. Manyshot, anyone?

[Griffin131]

Er, to be fair, that response only denies a full attack, since they can step through the wall and then shoot.

Actually, not even that since they can stand next to the wall and 5-foot step through it if you're on the wrong side.

I think Giacomo is probably underrating the usability of Wind Wall, but that there is not a good argument. You need to somehow make crossing the wall difficult.

Make it more than a 5ft step away. You get to place the wall. Its always been a delaying tactic more than an invulnerability tactic, in my experience.

[Signmaker]

Giacomo has gotten quite bold on his latest post, but while I do commend his attempts to disillusion us from the powers that are wizards, he has failed miserably.

Why?

While the common shootdown for the monk is that he cannot possibly gain any real advantage through items because of a wizard's "Oh no you don't" class ability (Spells, oh wow!), he tries a similar approach by saying that gasp! a wizard needs to focus on nonmagical things to survive, and that focusing on the offensive, he doesn't have the time use defense.

Wait, what?

Sure, the wizard has more MAGIC. But the PERMANENT, NON-DISPELLABLE abilities for combat (hp, base saves, BAB, combat feats, spc abilites, class skill choices) are all on the sides of non-casters.
So what happens is that the arcane caster first has to make up for ALL of these shortcomings to even survive, then as he rises in level, to compete in combat.

The problem starts where wizard players only learn the nice, powerful offense spells, but do not raise up their defense first - and this happens in my view because DMs normally are faced with the decision: if I let this encounter play out as it should be, the wizard will be killed right away. I can't have that, so he escapes (relatively or even not all) unscathed and can influence it greatly with his offense

Okay, time for some good ol' fashioned common sense. First off, which PC can accrue the most wealth? Wizards. Why? Craft(Alchemy), and Create Wondrous Item. Therefore, their costs to purchase scrolls, potions, and wands, all very CASTER-LIKE items is mitigated. What does this mean? This means that the wizard now possesses far more spells at his disposal than just the ones he has memorized. If we allow partially-charged wands (what a shock!), the variety of spells he has is even greater. And what's the clincher? He need not UMD a large majority of spells, and the ones that he must he has FULL RANKS TO DO SO. Which leads in to familiars UMDing, which escalates in to wizards being one of the best UMDing classes, etc. etc, not my real point.

Second. Quite a few 'offensive' wizard spells happen to be 'defensive' at the same time. Go figure! Evard's Black Tentacles. Cloudkill. A wizard is fully capable of defending himself at the same time that he's humiliating his opponent. An enemy that's bogged down from several spells happens to be one that's easily Scorching Rayed. This is not certain RPGs, where there is a very distinct rift between defensive and offensive spells. In the case of DnD, certain spells were designed to be both. And as you know, the best cliche phrase is a good meme. Err, defense/offence.

Lastly, on archers being casterbane. Seriously? I mean, seriously? The only casterbane archer is one that shoots trick arrows at them. How many core archers stock themselves with spell storing arrows of Scorching Ray, Hold Person, and the like? Not many (Smart, though). The damage that an archer can output is significantly less than a meleer, especially factoring in the hampering of a Wind Wall. Being reduced to one arrow a round (or Manyshot arrows which come with a substantial penalty) is not fun. Especially when the wizard follows up by blasting you with spells at the same time that you have to dodge back and forth between a layer of wind. A smart wizard will even make the wall cylindrical, with a large enough radius that there is always one direction the wizard can go that the archer cannot take a 5-foot step to get a full round of arrows in.

And now I wait for Giacomo's response back.

[mostlyharmful]

@mostlyharmful:
It's a pity, after all that I have posted and written in the guide itself you appear not to see ANY potential in the joker monk to have a chance vs a wizard. It's best to wait for the duels then.

Nonsense, the guides got lots of good ideas in it and at lower levels some of them are very good, nothing particularlly relating to Monk per say but there you go. Ok, I take exception to some of the ones that adversely affect the party and there's a few issues around cash and action expenditure but the idea of a grapple/UMD skirmish character with back-up skill-monkery makes for an ok 5th wheel, not great at any one thing but able to contribute to some extent in most circumstances. Certainly a lot more fun mechanically and tactically than a straight down the line fighter type build. Where I take exception is your idea that not only can this Casterlite build idea take on a high level Wizard, it's able to stand up to one worth calling Batman and even occasionally win.

A wizard at low levels if their mates don't protect them, sure the Gonk has a chance, if they sneak up or otherwise get the drop they're pretty much sure of a ganked magic user. Against Batman not so much.

[Frost]

This is core remember, Manyshot is crap.

And yes, it only protects him for a few rounds, but then again, it's not like the Wizard needs many rounds to kill an archer.

Also note that it doesn't have to be a straight wall, you can make it weave around and fly nearly directly above it so that even if he is adjacent to one part of the wall, you can move so that he has to move more then 5ft to hit you.

[Signmaker]

This is core remember, Manyshot is crap.

And yes, it only protects him for a few rounds, but then again, it's not like the Wizard needs many rounds to kill an archer.

Also note that it doesn't have to be a straight wall, you can make it weave around and fly nearly directly above it so that even if he is adjacent to one part of the wall, you can move so that he has to move more then 5ft to hit you.

5' radius cylinder being the easiest shape. With clever steed maneuvering (Hey, that wizard has how much int again?!), the archer will be forced to move at least 10 feet. Unless said archer is large/huge. But then, how many PC races are there like that in core?

[Frost]

5' radius cylinder being the easiest shape. With clever steed maneuvering (Hey, that wizard has how much int again?!), the archer will be forced to move at least 10 feet. Unless said archer is large/huge. But then, how many PC races are there like that in core?

I usually just use this:

Spoiler

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_____............_____
l.......l...........l........l
l.......l_______l........l
l...........................l
l......._______.........l
l.......l..........l.........l
l____l...........l_____l

Each side about 10-15ft depending on level. Much better against multiple enemies.

[Vortling]

Question for your Giacomo. Do you consider any books outside of core balanced?

[Talic]

His typical position has been yes, though with the addition of non-core, you add in so many options that it's less about the character and more about the ability of the player to sift through 47 different books for more combinations.

In other words, keeping it simpler makes the arguments more limited in scope and more manageable for one person arguing against 40.