Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Frost]

The Point about Familiars and Leadership is this:

lvl 20 Wizard + lvl 18 Wizard + lvl 16 Wizard + lvl 14 Wizard + lvl 12 Wizard + lvl 10 Wizard + lvl 8 Wizard + lvl 6 Wizard + lvl 4 Wizard + all their familiars > lvl 20 Monk + lvl 18 Wizard + lvl 16 Wizard + lvl 14 Wizard + lvl 12 Wizard + lvl 10 Wizard + lvl 8 Wizard + lvl 6 Wizard + lvl 4 Wizard + all their familiars.

And the fact that Every Monk wants a Wizard Cohort and no Wizard wants a Monk Cohort should tell you something.

[Signmaker]

The Point about Familiars and Leadership is this:

lvl 20 Wizard + lvl 18 Wizard + lvl 16 Wizard + lvl 14 Wizard + lvl 12 Wizard + lvl 10 Wizard + lvl 8 Wizard + lvl 6 Wizard + lvl 4 Wizard + all their familiars > lvl 20 Monk + lvl 18 Wizard + lvl 16 Wizard + lvl 14 Wizard + lvl 12 Wizard + lvl 10 Wizard + lvl 8 Wizard + lvl 6 Wizard + lvl 4 Wizard + all their familiars.

And the fact that Every Monk wants a Wizard Cohort and no Wizard wants a Monk Cohort should tell you something.

Cookie for the mathematical insinuation. True thus far, too.

[Talic]

can't comment on these since I do not have the books with these fabled prestige classes. All I know that the ability to get several rounds of actions at once in non-core is also available for non-casters (belt of battle, time stop, shapechange etc)

Those tricks can be used with Planar sheperd as well. And Belt of battle, which can give a couple partial actions, or 1 full one each day, at the cost of a swift, pales in comparison to the sheperd, who can go 10 full rounds, complete with swift actions, to your 1, every round of every day. Even time stop and shapechange PALE in comparison to it.

Though I find it odd that you use two spells as the availability for non casters. Just sayin.

Isn't Incantatrix from the same rules expansion as that allowing the pun-pun trick (Forgotten Realms campaign)? Anyhow, that rules expansion seems to have been full of such errors.

No. Pun Pun requires a creature which does not exist in Forgotten Realms. It's either Dragonlance or Burning Sands, I forget which. And PS is from Eberron.

In spells:
Celerity/Foresight, the 2 spell combo which means you NEVER beat the caster to going first. EVER.

Hmmmm. What about time stop, teleporting near the wizard and activating AMF next to the wizard? That's quite complicated, insn't it?

You begin casting. Wizard uses immediate action to cast celerity. Wizard eats you.

Shivering Touch line, which change 300 hp into 18 dex, and then deal 25 dex damage.

Touch spells can be stopped by various means. And since most of them are quite low level, a simple globe of invulnerabiltiy helps. But there are likey many, many more (vs shivering touch, a ring of counterspell could help; or spell immunity).

Easier methods are simply being something immune to ability damage. Further, 2 of your 3 solutions again, involve spellcasting. You can't UMD everything in 1 round, you know. Still, the spell can lay low CR 20 creatures, EASILY, in 1 casting. As a low level spell. That is a broken ability.

Utilizing not 1 or 2 metamagics at a discount but 9-10. Yes, you can Maximize split empower twin fell drain an enervation, and have it in a 4th level slot. Result? 20 negative levels on a ranged touch attack. Again, this changes HP into levels, and then kills you without a chance to resist.

see above.

Again, that there are defenses doesn't stop it from being overpowered. The same could be applied to a polar ray, disintigrate, finger of death, etc etc. And an incantatrix can easily pick any of those. The defense against 1 will not defend against the other. 300 damage with 4 neg levels, or 20 negative levels, or 4 saves vs disintigration and 4 negative levels, or... well you get the point. It's easy to do with incantatrix. That's why metamagic abuse is called abuse.

There's a difference between "strong" and "cheese". For example, Island in time and time stands still are very strong maneuvers. They're not cheese though.

True, I guess also for most non-core spells. Core, in any case.

No, Island in time and Time stands still leave opponents able to act. For example, they can cast immediate action spells. They are fundamentally different from time stop in this regard. The upside is that you CAN affect your opponent, whereas with time stop, you cannot. There is a bit of give and take, you gain something, lose something else, it more or less balances. Abilities such as the PS or Incantatrix's powers are all gain, no drawback, when compared to the closest similar thing. (Incantatrix closest thing is metamagic rods, which are expensive, limited in use, and only available for select Metamagic feats. Incantatrix is universal, less limited, and can be used with any metamagic feat. All benefit, no drawback.)

Other things could include Power Word: Pain (at low levels).

Mind blank. Range. Concealment.

Mind blank is an 8th level spell. Power Word: Pain was listed as being broken at low levels. I'd say that 15th level qualifies as "not low".

Just saying. By the time you could reliably purchase a scroll of mind blank, even to UMD, Power Word: Pain is no longer a threat.

Range is possible, though it's hard to get that after the spell is being cast. If you stay more than 30' back from any caster at low levels, just for fear of this spell, that says something.

Concealment only works if its total. The spell allows no save. It requires no attack roll. It just deals a massive amount of damage at low levels. (2d6 per round for 4d4 rounds, if your HP are under 25, time drops as your HP go up).

Further, there was the option for empowering familiars with spells for even more spells. And shapechanging into a choker for even more on top of that. And sharing that shapechange with my familiar so it can do the same thing. Combined with Arcane Spellsurge, I could have quite easily have slung 6 spells in a round, no problem.

You do realise that once you use your familiar actively in combat, there is no use for a DM to houserule that leadership is out? So the non-casters get even with a simple feat. Or get an intelligent magic item.
In other words, a level 20 core joker monk could do the following:
Get leadership feat for some kind of high-level companion able to also cast or do stuff. Then an intelligent item able to cast while the monk acts. Then the monk UMDing shapechange to get the choker ability. Then a time stop...and so on.

And the wizard can use Leadership as well, for more wizards, with more companions. Every one from level 15 up can get 6 actions a round. Every one below that can have 4-5. All of these characters can have intelligent items, for additional actions as well. See? Everything you just described can be used by the mage, in addition to what he's doing. Now his small army has twice as many actions as your small army. At least.

These are optimal options I could have done that would have been much more combat viable.

I don't know...the mageslayers could have done more as well. Likely this race of arms never ends...

Only way I could have seen Mage slayers doing more is if they all used ToB as well as Eldariel did. If I'd gone Incantatrix or PS, it would not have mattered. Either one would have killed all three of them before they could even act. While they were still flat footed. Regardless of whether or not they had Dex to AC. Regardless of any buffs, abilities, or powers they had. 1 spell takes out any blink type effects, 1 spell negates AC, 1 spell kills. Planar sheperd gets 10 actions. So that's 3 per mage slayer.... 9 actions. Check. (to go first, begins combat with wild shape active, for dire tortoise form, ensuring a surprise round that he acts in, no matter what)

Incantatrix: Foresight/Greater Celerity prior to the 1st player's turn, after the match begins, For a full round action. With the Arcane Spellsurge already on, cast shapeshift (form immune to stunning), and a metamagicked time stop (maximize is my favorite). Drop the spell which negates blink effects, true seeing, and the like, off a scroll, if needed. Shapeshift into a choker. On last round of time stop, True strike(swift), and delay. Choose to go immediately when time stop ends. Use your 2 standard actions, blast one with the kill spell (95% kill rate), Time stop again. Repeat for slayer 2 and 3. All three die before they act. Yes. I could have done this. There's a reason I didn't. Whether they had greater blink, deathward, antimagic field, globe of invulnerability, spell immunity, or what have you up, the kill spell just changes. That's it.

Alternately, invisibility spheres with summon spells. Yeah, those mage slayers can pinpoint invisible creatures, but what about when there's 25 invisible creatures?

You get a listen check per invisbile creature. Or get some see invisibiltiy effect. Not that difficult.

Listen checks will detect and pinpoint them. However, when there's 25 of them, you now have 25 pinpointed invisible targets. Think of it as a Mirror Image. The critters aren't there to be offense. They're there to confound non-magical detection. Magical detection was repeatedly foiled in the challenge.

Mages have a lot of options. I thought up the 5 most effective strategies I could, and then didn't use those. AFTER I went 3 on 1. AFTER I went into an enclosed area. So yeah.`

Yes, mages have a lot of options. And thus can also do many more mistakes.

And, when they choose to use the ironclad strategies, the opponents don't even get a chance.

OK everyone. What I admit is the following:
At very high levels, magic becomes all-important. Casters have way better access to it. But non-casters (sometimes also in the form of supernatural abilities) also get it. And there are many spells that block plenty of other spells, so being able to work more spells or choose from more spells often does not help at all.

WRONG. As there are many spells that block other spells, there are also many spells that hurt opponents. Many have different spells that are defended against. Having more spells either increases the number of spells your opponent must defend against (meaning he needs more spells to be successful), or allows the player to defend against more different offenses.
Name me one spell that protects from every one of the following spells: Orb of fire, Enervation, Acid fog, polar ray, disintigrate, power word kill, black tentacles. Assuming Caster has a true seeing. Assume that if you have to roll a save, you roll a 1. In other words, stop every one of the above effects with one spell. If you can, then you have a point about spell versatility not being important.

And once you allow non-core material, the matter gets even more complicated. It's open-end, an endless race of arms, so to speak, to see which build can get more powerful than the other.

To which, short of Pun-Pun, full casters can win. See above.

What it does not show, though, is that casters in core are always more powerful than non-casters. Or for that matter, that the monk is the weakest of all, unable to keep up.

They aren't "always more powerful", true. But they DO have a higher power threshold, and, at high levels of optimization, the ability to kill almost anything at high levels, before it even has an action. The same cannot be said for non-casters.

In other words, there is a point in optimization where Casters can attain a power level that noncasters simply do not and cannot reach. That level is the ability to remove 95% of the luck from the game, making almost any roll irrelevant, and the ones that aren't, succeed on a 2 or better... Before the opponent acts.

[AmberVael]

Name me one spell that protects from every one of the following spells: Orb of fire, Enervation, Acid fog, polar ray, disintigrate, power word kill, black tentacles. Assuming Caster has a true seeing. Assume that if you have to roll a save, you roll a 1. In other words, stop every one of the above effects with one spell.

Teleport!

"Brave Sir Robin ran away.
Bravely ran away, away!
When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
Bravely taking to his feet
He beat a very brave retreat,
Bravest of the brave, Sir Robin!"

[Idea Man]

Name me one spell that protects from every one of the following spells: Orb of fire, Enervation, Acid fog, polar ray, disintigrate, power word kill, black tentacles. Assuming Caster has a true seeing. Assume that if you have to roll a save, you roll a 1. In other words, stop every one of the above effects with one spell. If you can, then you have a point about spell versatility not being important.

Wall of X, where X equals a solid.

Teleport was good, though.

[Talic]

Ok, so far every "protection" effect involves disengaging from the combat, either by fleeing (caster just overcame you by forcing you to flee), or by putting a solid wall between you and caster. If the wall doesn't enclose you, then a caster will be able to maneuver around it and still hit you, so either you flee, or you trap yourself?

Not so good so far.

I mean, really. You should know that both of the methods of "protection" above are merely different ways to cower, either hiding in some dark corner, or under a magically created rock.

Next?

[Frosty]

In higher levels, I find that the safest way todo combat is to do it through Astral Projection. Cast it from your own demi-plane, and go into the Material Plane and have fun!

[Talic]

In higher levels, I find that the safest way todo combat is to do it through Astral Projection. Cast it from your own demi-plane, and go into the Material Plane and have fun!

With of course, the possibility that some DM's rule that AMF severs the connection, slaying you instantly.

[Frosty]

You're a high level caster. You see anyone cast AMF anywhere near you, you celerity, Timestop, and do bad things to the enemy afterwards when you are a safe distance away.

[Talic]

Point is made. And when you run out of memorized celerity spells? Well the last one's for a Celerity, Standard Action, Dismiss the Astral Projection spell. Begin again tomorrow.

[Frost]

With of course, the possibility that some DM's rule that AMF severs the connection, slaying you instantly.

That's BS in line with Giamoco's attempted rulings. I don't think anyone ever would argue that unless they just really hated Astral Projection and wanted to kill their players for using it.

[Griffin131]

@Fenix_of_Doom:
Thanks for the link!
As for admitting that flurrying grappling checks is not RAW, I do not need to. It's RAW. Only if you think (as you apparently do) that a modified car is no longer a car, then you may think that it is not RAW. And we both saw it does not matter: no-one around here is arguing anymore that the monk cannot or should not be able to do it. He can. So let's leave it at that.

this hurts so much typing with a partially broken wrist after my motorcycle accident yesterday, but...

Giacomo, noone has agreed with you. You are the last person claiming that this is RAW. You are the only one convinced that a modified <blank> is still a <blank> in all cases. Its like a Venn diagram -- some things (that don't spell out "base attack bonus") the two are interchangeable. Some things they are not.

That you could cast wall of force with effect inside is only due to Rules Compendium updates that Lord Silvanos found.

And? It is still The Rules (tm)

Shapechange...I vaguely remember a lot of posters having a problem with that spell. But anyhow, if you have it, so do also the non-casters.

Why are you convinced that devoting so many resuorces a) into UMD and b) into acting like a damn caster is so awesome an idea for a non-caster?

Hmmmm. What about time stop, teleporting near the wizard and activating AMF next to the wizard? That's quite complicated, insn't it?

Celerity, you don't get to cast Time Stop.
Educate yourself about the spells, then post ways to counter the combo.

You do realise that once you use your familiar actively in combat, there is no use for a DM to houserule that leadership is out? So the non-casters get even with a simple feat. Or get an intelligent magic item.
In other words, a level 20 core joker monk could do the following:
Get leadership feat for some kind of high-level companion able to also cast or do stuff. Then an intelligent item able to cast while the monk acts. Then the monk UMDing shapechange to get the choker ability. Then a time stop...and so on.

You do realize you just compared a semi-useful class feature with one of the most overpowered feats ever? Theres a difference there...

You get a listen check per invisbile creature. Or get some see invisibiltiy effect. Not that difficult.

Okay. You know of 25 creatures. Which one is the mage?

OK everyone. What I admit is the following:
At very high levels, magic becomes all-important. Casters have way better access to it. But non-casters (sometimes also in the form of supernatural abilities) also get it. And there are many spells that block plenty of other spells, so being able to work more spells or choose from more spells often does not help at all.

Wrong. Only the last sentence tho.

And once you allow non-core material, the matter gets even more complicated. It's open-end, an endless race of arms, so to speak, to see which build can get more powerful than the other.

Rarely, if ever, have I seen an optomized non-caster that can beat an optimized caster.

What it does not show, though, is that casters in core are always more powerful than non-casters. Or for that matter, that the monk is the weakest of all, unable to keep up.

Only to people that refuse to see it.

[AmberVael]

Ok, so far every "protection" effect involves disengaging from the combat, either by fleeing (caster just overcame you by forcing you to flee), or by putting a solid wall between you and caster. If the wall doesn't enclose you, then a caster will be able to maneuver around it and still hit you, so either you flee, or you trap yourself?

Not so good so far.

I mean, really. You should know that both of the methods of "protection" above are merely different ways to cower, either hiding in some dark corner, or under a magically created rock.

Next?

But isn't running the Joker's strategy? I mean, that's why he has all that extra move speed, and his eversmoking bottle, and his hide ranks and superior invisibility...

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi again,

I'll try to answer to as many issues that you raise as possible.
First of all, though, my arguments on non-core stuff is mostly only based on what evidence you provide to me. Some prestige classes that provide 10 extra rounds of actions definitely sound unbalanced to me. Similarly, a low-level no-save spell like power word pain probably is likewise unbalanced.
This is an argument that I have no desire to continue, only this:
- in core the stuff is balanced, because most of what you assume is easily possible for wizards turns out in my view to be much more complicated in realitiy (e.g. contingency)
- outside core, I have tried and will try to come up with (often even core only!) ideas that should imo at least put some doubts into hastily saying "this combo always wins" or "non-casters stand no chance".
If someone puts massive efforts into truly optimising a monk build, alongside prestige classing with non-core material, I bet there are also quite awesome results.

The Point about Familiars and Leadership is this:

lvl 20 Wizard + lvl 18 Wizard + lvl 16 Wizard + lvl 14 Wizard + lvl 12 Wizard + lvl 10 Wizard + lvl 8 Wizard + lvl 6 Wizard + lvl 4 Wizard + all their familiars > lvl 20 Monk + lvl 18 Wizard + lvl 16 Wizard + lvl 14 Wizard + lvl 12 Wizard + lvl 10 Wizard + lvl 8 Wizard + lvl 6 Wizard + lvl 4 Wizard + all their familiars.

And the fact that Every Monk wants a Wizard Cohort and no Wizard wants a Monk Cohort should tell you something.

Frost, the point about familiars and leadership is only this: once you have a familiar, you receive a penalty to your leadership score. So you get a better cohort without a familiar.
Then, the cohort is entirely designed by your DM. While it is fairly reasonable to assume that you say broadly "I'd like to have a monk or a wizard as a cohort", in no way will you get to choose the feats. And for the infinite leadership chain, you'd need to.
Some DMs may allow it, but only in certain kinds of campaigns.
The main advantage of caster cohorts, btw, is that they can stay at home and still be useful - by creating magic items for you at a lower price. In combat, though, it depends on the level and your own class what kind of cohort you'd choose.

By your logic, one can say this:

"You do realise that once you use your druid wildshape actively in combat, there is no use for a DM to houserule that shapechange is out?"

A familiar is quite underpowered compared to the leadership cheese. It's powerful in its own right, but you can't make that leap of logic. It's just....moving on.

A familiar is a class ability. One that comes WITH THE CLASS. Like a package deal. Feats, especially freelance ones like Leadership, are extra. If you don't like the fact that a wizard can use his familiar intellectually for an advantage (They DO have potent Int scores), that a wizard can use his OWN CLASS BENEFITS to utilize a strategy, isn't it warped that you would preach the value of Use Magic Device, a skill that isn't even in a Monk's class skill list?

Maybe you don't see this the way I do, but from my point of view, your issues with a wizard's familiar contradict your own ideas on how to make an 'ideal' monk.

You may wish to separate class abilities from the feats the class receives, but if, say, a class ONLY had as a class ability a familiar and everyone could get something similar with only a feat, that would say something about that ability?
In turn, what is it now for you? Do you think a familiar is extremely powerful because it can provide your caster with extra actions, or is it weaker than leadership? Try to be a bit consistent here, please. You cannot boast about how uber a wizard is due to the extra actions of its familiar and then say leadership is out, because that's way too powerful. This is the true parallel to the shapechange/wildshape issue. And not the strange intro that you gave.

Basically, what you appear to be thinking is this: familiar or wildshape are class abilities and thus are deservedly part of that classe's power. However, the moment someone gets this stuff via feats and items, and even in (arguably) more powerful form, you cry foul. This is highly inconsistent.

In any case does not matter whether it's a class ability or not. It is an extra npc run by the DM. And giving one character a companion and denying it to the other via a feat use is simply unfair.
The only fair thing to do as a DM is that, for instance, you limit the number of npcs somehow tied to the characters to one per character. So the druid has his animal companion, the sorcerer his familiar, the paladin his mount, and the rogue a faerie dragon via leadership. What is the problem about that?
The familiar DOES have some advantages (like share spells), but cohorts otherwise are more powerful in combat and other things, plus you do not lose XP when they are killed.

I don't think this works, at least as stated. You can't enter an Antimagic Field under the effects of Time Stop, and by casting it around yourself you would be effectively entering one.

Not to mention that casting it this way would result in the effects of Time Stop coming to a halt, leaving you in exactly the position you wanted to avoid: letting your opponent have the next action. I'm guessing stepping outside the AMF and letting loose with wall of stone retaliation would be in order.

In any case, this situation wouldn't happen because immediate actions happen at any time, as long as the wizard isn't flatfooted. With Foresight available as a buff, it just isn't possible to attack a wizard in a way that doesn't result in the wizard getting the first round of spellcasting.

Well, the way I see it, the following happens: you cast AMF inside the time stop (note that you do not enter it, you create it around you). This instantly ends the time stop. Now, normally you'd have the surprise on the wizard -but foresight is up. However, foresight is magic and instantly suppressed by the AMF that came into being outside of time. Hmmm. Difficult call.
Then, the best thing that could happen for the wizard is that initiative is rolled. In any case, celerity would not apply, since the wizard would be unable to cast it in the AMF, intermediate action or not.
Plus, foresight does not last all day. You'd need to have it up all the time, eating away quite a few of the prescious 9th level spell slots.

Uh... I'm just curious, does anyone else think it's silly that a magical item can activate an anti-magic field?
Anyone?

Well, allegedly there exists a torc of AMF, so it is found feasible by rules outside core. It's also a simple intuition: Basically, if the item allows you to cast the AMF, then the item's magic is suppressed, yes, but not the spell itself (otherwise, the AMF spell would negate itself, too, but it does not - see the spell description).

But anyway...
Yes, Giacomo, your Joke(r) could obtain all these high-level spells (AMF, death ward, true seeing, mind blank, etc) in use-per-day items. Or heck, even in scrolls.

Yes, at long last, another one accepts this. Thanks!
But please do not ridicule my build without any evidence.

But it gets to a point where you simply cannot say, "oh, he has [spell] in an item at all times." He'd end up with no money to buy wands, equipment, nothing of any consequence.

A mind blank custom item would cost around 43,200, plus materials. I do not see this as prohibitive. Of course a non-spell caster cannot safeguard vs all threats (no wizard can, either, btw). But it is much easier when there are a few immensily powerful defensive spells available that the non-caster can concentrate on.

Because for every item the Joke(r) buys, there is another spell he'll need to have covered. And another.

The same for the wizard. And the wizard has to get up all kind of additional defenses up due to low hp, low saves, low AC low anyhting permanent.

Because the wizard can just keep on listing off spells and counters, strategies, and if worst comes to worst, he can retreat from battle and come back later;

Like any non-caster with superior move, skills and/or the relevant magic items.

you simply cannot just say "oh I'll get him in an anti-magic field." If doing that were as easy as you make it sound, Anti-magic fields would be considered too powerful. But they aren't, because a decently high-level wizard *will* see you coming, and *will* either get out or kill you in your sleep.

Oh, I can say that easily. AMF is such an extremely powerful anti-magic spell (sic!), it cuts through almost all a wizard can turn up as if through hot butter.
I do not know whether the "mageslayer" builds vs Talic's lvl 20 wizard used AMF (I have not read through the whole duel thread yet), but they should.

I will just try to address those ones, just... because

Just as a kind reminder: please do not edit into what I post and pretend that is what I posted (i.e. alleged "monk grandeur"). That is simply bad style. Thanks.

1- Celerity let's you use and immediate action to interrupt anything and start your turn (as if you won the initiative), provided you are not surprised/flat-footed. Guess what foresight do?

Guess what foresight is? Right! Magic! Suppressed in AMF

2- I can just have my Moment of Prescience activated, or a quickened true strike? If you want to overkill, MoP: +25 MAX, or true strike for a +20. Let's see, +2 dex, +8 BAB, +20 insight, +30 total. Unless you can have more than 40 touch AC at 16th level (45%~55% of chance of dodging), you are screwed

You can have that all activated, but it all is suppressed in an AMF. Hence its usefulness.

3- Now the monk (or anyone else) have globe of invulnerability too? Unless he have it at all times, he have to beat initiative of the wizard to use. And let's not forget that the globe line makes immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere. See the immobile part? Not so much effective unless you can use ranged attacks or make the wizard stand right next to you and don't move at all. Super easy

Oh, the monk could use magic (wands, scrolls, other items). Although that appears extremely hard for those wizard uberness believers to accept. Spellcasters casts spells. Everyone uses magic. It's that simple.
Ah, and do not underestimate the powers of shuriken... One volley of those at higher levels and the wizard is dead.

4- Even if the globe can be used that way, you responded about using it against abused metamagic (because they can be ultra powerful and still take a little less spell slots than normal). Guess what, that ultra-metamagicket-to-death spell can have one more: Highen spell. Or a different one to put it at 5th level slot. The 4th level enervation of doom are the most WEAK one from his arsenal.

Ah yes, of course. Once an argument of wizard uberness is brought back to the realm of the realistic, it is of course only "weak" compared to what they could do. Similarly, Talic's level 20 wizard only lost because he did not really optimise him. Etc.
That said, yes, getting another feat and replacing a more powerful spell slot with said spell may be an option. Against THAT particular defense of a non-caster. Again, arms race. But no easy win.

5- How, o God HOW! A non-caster have access to abusive metamagic? Or access to a Ranged (need spell or class feature) maximized/empowered (need item or feat and ability to cast spells) shivering touch (20~25 dex damage per use) at manageable cost? Or an enervation of doom? A wizard can have a wand of those by making it himself (and cheaper). If your character are buying lot's of these you are running out of money fast

I would never think about trying to let a non-caster do what casters can do best (e.g. attacking spells). I only provide them with the spells and magic that synergise with what they already can do well.

6- Non-casters have 1-3 builds that can make it annoying for the DM. Full casters have dozens of sets of spells, builds and extra options to break the game. Even with powerful magic items, who make then? Remember: if your non-caster may have access to it, a full caster already abused it.

Well, outside of core that may be the case. And with mundane items, who made them? A wizard will have at some point in his career needed to eat. Does this mean his class is weak?

7- Why you rule out leadership? Full. Caster. Cohort! . An empowered familiar is strong because you make it strong by sharing your spells, casting spells on him, giving him a magic item. It's the same as a shapeshift druid with natural spell and lot's of summoned critters: he used his own power to make it work. Now a cohort, you get all the benefits of the above tactics... for FREE . Okay, now that's scary.

Yep, more of that inconsistency. Familiar with wands and doubling spells for caster is good. Leadership allowing spells for non-caster is bad.

8- SM II + Invisibility sphere x2 + SM VIII (1d4 type) + Invisibility sphere xN Equal lot's of decoys and lot's of high hitters, while the wizard start to really land some huge spell of effect.

See invisibiltiy. Listen. Raise up concealment of your own (eversmoking bottle anyone?). Go, wizard, go with your huge spell of effect!

---------------------
Now Giacomo, can you give me the math of the highest UMD score you can get, how reliably you can use it? If that answer come in the lines of "Rogue" or "Bard", then I guess my job is done

Of course, rogue and bard can raise UMD highest (they even have some nice CHR synergy most of the time, in particular the bard).
But you're missing the whole point here. UMD +19 is all that a non-caster needs to make SAFE use in combat of ALL lvl 1-4 spells. UMD +0 (at least 1 rank) is all that a non-caster needs to make use of ALL lvl 1-4 spells OUTSIDE combat.
And as I have shown, you can get +0 and higher UMD already at level 1 (all classes can), and +19 is possible even for a CHR 8 character by level 15; by level 11 (or even earlier), depending on circumstances.

That's about it for now - will respond to other posts later.

- Giacomo

[AmberVael]

Frost, the point about familiars and leadership is only this: once you have a familiar, you receive a penalty to your leadership score. So you get a better cohort without a familiar.

1) This is easily negated by the leadership mechanics. A -2 penalty for the familiar is simply negated by a +2 bonus elsewhere. In the end, yes, you're going to have a lower leadership score, but if you want to get the highest cohort level (which is the point of leadership being argued here) then only having enough to have a cohort 2 levels below you is the real importance, which is done just as easily by a wizard as anyone else, despite having a familiar.

You may wish to separate class abilities from the feats the class receives, but if, say, a class ONLY had as a class ability a familiar and everyone could get something similar with only a feat, that would say something about that ability?

It would say that the ability is probably as powerful as a feat.
But of course, your argument is irrelevant since that isn't the case at all.

You argue that all the classes are balanced, thus one class's abilities should be equal to the abilities of another class. If you argue that a wizard cannot use their familiar to full effect, then you have to say one of two things:
1) Wizard is more powerful than other classes due to possessing and using a familiar.
2) You're sabotaging the Wizard's ability to act as powerfully as other classes, thus making them weaker than other classes.

What's the case, Giacomo? Do you think core is balanced or unbalanced? On option one, if Core is balanced, then Wizards can use their familiars normally without being penalized, because the familiar is balanced out by other class abilities.
If core is unbalanced, then you can hamper the Wizard class by dictating what the familiar can and can't do, so as to put it on par with other classes.

Try to be consistent here.

[Griffin131]

Well, the way I see it, the following happens: you cast AMF inside the time stop (note that you do not enter it, you create it around you). This instantly ends the time stop. Now, normally you'd have the surprise on the wizard -but foresight is up. However, foresight is magic and instantly suppressed by the AMF that came into being outside of time. Hmmm. Difficult call.
Then, the best thing that could happen for the wizard is that initiative is rolled. In any case, celerity would not apply, since the wizard would be unable to cast it in the AMF, intermediate action or not.
Plus, foresight does not last all day. You'd need to have it up all the time, eating away quite a few of the prescious 9th level spell slots.

Somehow, without surprise, you get within AMF range of the wizard before init is rolled. You maybe win init, where you Time Stop + AMF. That ends your turn. I take a full round action to Withdraw, then an Immediate action to Celerity. I then Time Stop and wtfpwn you. If you start far enough away that im not in the AMF, then I celerity as an immediate action if you win init, or Time Stop if I win init.

[AlterForm]

Gia: Where are you getting 43200 for a custom item of mind blank? Going by the magic item creation guidelines, we have a level 8 spell with minimum CL 15 times 2000 base with a 1/2 modifier for duration. 8 * 15 * 2000 * 0.5 = 120,000 gp.

[Kurald Galain]

Gia: Where are you getting 43200 for a custom item of mind blank?

It's probably a partially charged item of mind blank

[Arakune]

Just as a kind reminder: please do not edit into what I post and pretend that is what I posted (i.e. alleged "monk grandeur"). That is simply bad style. Thanks.

1- Celerity let's you use and immediate action to interrupt anything and start your turn (as if you won the initiative), provided you are not surprised/flat-footed. Guess what foresight do?

Guess what foresight is? Right! Magic! Suppressed in AMF

2- I can just have my Moment of Prescience activated, or a quickened true strike? If you want to overkill, MoP: +25 MAX, or true strike for a +20. Let's see, +2 dex, +8 BAB, +20 insight, +30 total. Unless you can have more than 40 touch AC at 16th level (45%~55% of chance of dodging), you are screwed

You can have that all activated, but it all is suppressed in an AMF. Hence its usefulness.

3- Now the monk (or anyone else) have globe of invulnerability too? Unless he have it at all times, he have to beat initiative of the wizard to use. And let's not forget that the globe line makes immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere. See the immobile part? Not so much effective unless you can use ranged attacks or make the wizard stand right next to you and don't move at all. Super easy

Oh, the monk could use magic (wands, scrolls, other items). Although that appears extremely hard for those wizard uberness believers to accept. Spellcasters casts spells. Everyone uses magic. It's that simple.
Ah, and do not underestimate the powers of shuriken... One volley of those at higher levels and the wizard is dead.

4- Even if the globe can be used that way, you responded about using it against abused metamagic (because they can be ultra powerful and still take a little less spell slots than normal). Guess what, that ultra-metamagicket-to-death spell can have one more: Highen spell. Or a different one to put it at 5th level slot. The 4th level enervation of doom are the most WEAK one from his arsenal.

Ah yes, of course. Once an argument of wizard uberness is brought back to the realm of the realistic, it is of course only "weak" compared to what they could do. Similarly, Talic's level 20 wizard only lost because he did not really optimise him. Etc.
That said, yes, getting another feat and replacing a more powerful spell slot with said spell may be an option. Against THAT particular defense of a non-caster. Again, arms race. But no easy win.

5- How, o God HOW! A non-caster have access to abusive metamagic? Or access to a Ranged (need spell or class feature) maximized/empowered (need item or feat and ability to cast spells) shivering touch (20~25 dex damage per use) at manageable cost? Or an enervation of doom? A wizard can have a wand of those by making it himself (and cheaper). If your character are buying lot's of these you are running out of money fast

I would never think about trying to let a non-caster do what casters can do best (e.g. attacking spells). I only provide them with the spells and magic that synergise with what they already can do well.

6- Non-casters have 1-3 builds that can make it annoying for the DM. Full casters have dozens of sets of spells, builds and extra options to break the game. Even with powerful magic items, who make then? Remember: if your non-caster may have access to it, a full caster already abused it.

Well, outside of core that may be the case. And with mundane items, who made them? A wizard will have at some point in his career needed to eat. Does this mean his class is weak?

7- Why you rule out leadership? Full. Caster. Cohort! . An empowered familiar is strong because you make it strong by sharing your spells, casting spells on him, giving him a magic item. It's the same as a shapeshift druid with natural spell and lot's of summoned critters: he used his own power to make it work. Now a cohort, you get all the benefits of the above tactics... for FREE . Okay, now that's scary.

Yep, more of that inconsistency. Familiar with wands and doubling spells for caster is good. Leadership allowing spells for non-caster is bad.

8- SM II + Invisibility sphere x2 + SM VIII (1d4 type) + Invisibility sphere xN Equal lot's of decoys and lot's of high hitters, while the wizard start to really land some huge spell of effect.

See invisibiltiy. Listen. Raise up concealment of your own (eversmoking bottle anyone?). Go, wizard, go with your huge spell of effect!

---------------------
Now Giacomo, can you give me the math of the highest UMD score you can get, how reliably you can use it? If that answer come in the lines of "Rogue" or "Bard", then I guess my job is done

Of course, rogue and bard can raise UMD highest (they even have some nice CHR synergy most of the time, in particular the bard).
But you're missing the whole point here. UMD +19 is all that a non-caster needs to make SAFE use in combat of ALL lvl 1-4 spells. UMD +0 (at least 1 rank) is all that a non-caster needs to make use of ALL lvl 1-4 spells OUTSIDE combat.
And as I have shown, you can get +0 and higher UMD already at level 1 (all classes can), and +19 is possible even for a CHR 8 character by level 15; by level 11 (or even earlier), depending on circumstances.

That's about it for now - will respond to other posts later.

- Giacomo

And yet, it's the truth

1- Interesting, now tell me why a spell that says I'm never surprised let's someone sneaking behind me and taking me be *gasp* surprise! And I doubt you can use your ring of superior invisibility inside the AMF. Even if it does, it will work like this: you get closer, the foresight warn "DANGER, get out of where you are!" -> Celerity -> Get out and see either you or nothing at all (in this case thinking the enemy is invisible is obvious for an 20+ int char) and the mayhem begins (by that I mean, the non-caster is already dead if that wasn't clear enough).

2- See 1. Also, the enervation of doom are the weakest one. What about orbs of doom? Do HP damage, dazes, pass the AMF?

3- Globe of invulnerability is useless for meele combatants. For ranged attacks there's wind wall and/or protection from arrows. Or iron guard. Or anything else. Suppose your monk at 16th level throws lot's of shurikens: that's +12/+12/+12/+7/+2 base, more with high Dex, and mediocre damage unless you have high Str too (1d2 + Str mod for standard shurikens).
Suppose and Dex 20, Str 20: +17/+17+/+17/+12/+7, 1d2 + 5 damage.
Congratulations, you managed to be 5 times useless in the same round because of a second level spell that the wizard can/will have prepared. If the monk have magic shurikens (say, +4), then you need a third level spell to make your tactics useless. And there is the default blur, displacement, etc that can you the wizard hard to hit. There are many other ways, but these are the most common.

4- The only problem with the arms race against non-casters and casters is the the non-caster are at huge disadvantage, something you conveniently ignore.

5- Attacking spells are not the best a wizard can do. The best a wizard can do is to gather information via divination spells, know what to do with days of advance, do his job with minimal risk and profit. In the unlikely chance of being caught by "surprise", he have enough defenses dispose any treat that's not another full caster.

6- No, outside of core you can have 1-3 non-casters builds that annoy the DM. Things like the Dungeon-Crasher, the Trip-Lock figther, the Uber-Charger. But with only core you already can break the game with spell sets (build? not so much with only very few PrC).

7- Your logic is flawed in this regard: if you are allowing leadership to non-casters, then why full casters can't have it? And if all your cohorts/cohortsxN are full casters, then it's more a race of "who have the most powerful full caster". Let's say the mini-army of full casters cancel each other, now it's the "original" full caster vs the non-caster. Back to square one. Also, leadership just give a, albeit less powerful, a full caster with all his spells for FREE. Let's say it again: FREE, where the familiar are using the caster own spells, own items, own WBL to become usable.

8- Gust of wind? Shatter the eversmoking bottle? Black tentacles in the middle of the ever smoking bottle area effect? cloud kill? acid fog? incendiary fog? web? any combination of above? And god help you if you try to go away from that ever smoking hiding shell, and be facing lot's of monsters with readied actions and a wizard with more at your face?
------------------------------------------------------

And how long it last again most of the UMD effects outside the combat again? Not so much. Things that may be useful, like a wand of mage armor, cost too much for what a simple armor can make. And since you can't 'take 10' in a UMD check, you actually need to roll to see if you can use the wand. You said a +0 zero is enough? Let's see:

Wand of mage armor: 11 int min, wand DC (20), CL1 use: pretty good and last quite long.
UMD checks: 20 to use wand -> 5%. Good luck with that one.

Scroll if mage armor: 11 int min, scroll DC (21), CL1
UMD check: 21 to use scroll, Never can activate it OR same as the wand use if the DM rule that nat 20 is always a success.

Now, you didn't show anything because no one agreed that you can use an MW UMD tool, or even if you can use, you can have a MW UMD tool that can be used at all times. An alchemist lab is a MW tool, but hardly you can carry it with you, or use it in a rush.

I understand that using magic items to enhance your usefulness is good, but frankly, if you want that buff, ask you party wizard. You will run out of money fast, the thing can explode in your head, when you really need it you can fumble...

And last, if a non-caster can use it, a full-caster already abused it. Just think about it.

[Signmaker]

You may wish to separate class abilities from the feats the class receives, but if, say, a class ONLY had as a class ability a familiar and everyone could get something similar with only a feat, that would say something about that ability?
In turn, what is it now for you? Do you think a familiar is extremely powerful because it can provide your caster with extra actions, or is it weaker than leadership? Try to be a bit consistent here, please. You cannot boast about how uber a wizard is due to the extra actions of its familiar and then say leadership is out, because that's way too powerful. This is the true parallel to the shapechange/wildshape issue. And not the strange intro that you gave.

As any physics teacher would say, it's all relative. Leadership, as you know, is extremely powerful, and a familiar pales in comparison. However, a familiar in itself is quite powerful. Amazing, wildshape and shapechange follow the same general idea! Gasp!

Basically, what you appear to be thinking is this: familiar or wildshape are class abilities and thus are deservedly part of that classe's power. However, the moment someone gets this stuff via feats and items, and even in (arguably) more powerful form, you cry foul. This is highly inconsistent.

Wrong. You argue that all (Core) classes are balanced (You actually used 'stuff', might want to change the wording a tad) . As I've said, PACKAGE DEAL. You get the wizard, you get the familiar. Do not throw universal feats (Such as Leadership, effective for ALL CLASSES) in to the picture when you compare classes. And likewise, do not deny the wizard his own class benefit, because that would be gimping the wizard, who, according to your 'balance' theory, DOES NOT REQUIRE GIMPING. Of course, most of us don't agree that classes are balanced, and that familiars do become an issue when extra actions become available to an already powerful class.

In any case does not matter whether it's a class ability or not. It is an extra npc run by the DM. And giving one character a companion and denying it to the other via a feat use is simply unfair.

Class ability. Druids have it too. Rangers too. Sorcerers too. Paladins too. And in non-core, partial arcane casters do too. As a feat. Which is not leadership (Obtain Familiar). Again, package deal, and a universal feat such as Leadership (Able to be taken by any class) is not making things fair and square. You claim that I am inconsistent? My entire argument can be summed up in two words. Yours is that

A. Extra characters are unfair
B. If a character comes with a companion, Leadership should be an option to any classes that don't.

I'm sorry, if I have a squirt gun when you only have a water balloon, taking out a garden hose is hardly being 'fair'.

The only fair thing to do as a DM is that, for instance, you limit the number of npcs somehow tied to the characters to one per character. So the druid has his animal companion, the sorcerer his familiar, the paladin his mount, and the rogue a faerie dragon via leadership. What is the problem about that?
The familiar DOES have some advantages (like share spells), but cohorts otherwise are more powerful in combat and other things, plus you do not lose XP when they are killed.

Again, you are stating that Leadership is more powerful. And yet you're giving it to a class that is, by your theory, 'balanced' compared to another? Inconsistent, you are. If a monk needs Leadership just to trump a wizard's familiar, obviously something needs to be sorted out.

[ericgrau]

I humbly suggest people create new threads to discuss monks, each titled according to the appropriate tangent. Same for fighters, 4e, bards, w/e.

169 page threads based on some poorly informed user's ranting? Thumbs down.

[Worira]

So you'd rather have 169 1-page threads? Thumbs down.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I humbly suggest people create new threads to discuss monks, each titled according to the appropriate tangent. Same for fighters, 4e, bards, w/e.

169 page threads based on some poorly informed user's ranting? Thumbs down.

Get used to it, this is a popular topic. More threads about it will just clog up the front page.

[Stupendous_Man]

8- Gust of wind? Shatter the eversmoking bottle? Black tentacles in the middle of the ever smoking bottle area effect? cloud kill? acid fog? incendiary fog? web? any combination of above? And god help you if you try to go away from that ever smoking hiding shell, and be facing lot's of monsters with readied actions and a wizard with more at your face?

hey, a friend and i were having a debate, can you use telekinetic sphere to ddisarm a smoking bottle?

[Skjaldbakka]

I haven't read through all of this, so forgive me if this has been brought up already, but the Cosmopolitan feat, combined with a monk 15/sorc 5 with Ascetic Mage would be a pretty viable way to run this kind of build. That would make UMD a class skill (with a +2), and also give an incentive to have a high Cha.

Starting at level 3, you'd have 1 or 2 sorceror levels, so you don't have to worry about buying enlarge person wands.

Also, I like the idea of Chill Touch on a grapple build. Ray of Enfeeblement is also nice.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Also, I like the idea of Chill Touch on a grapple build.

how so? it deals one whole strenght damage on a failed save and does a pathetic d6 damage, you also need to make a touch attack at -4 in a grapple which together with your probably not so good BaB/str makes it all but certain to hit your opponents.

[Skjaldbakka]

1) You can cast chill touch and just hold the charge until a fight starts. Then you can flurry to get your multiple charges of it off, potentially dealing multiple points of strength damage on top of your unarmed attacks, thus making it easier to win a grapple against your target. Probably more efficient to just go with Ray of Enfeeblement, then move into melee, but I like to mix up my strategy a little to break up the monotony. Also, if you use RoE first, you might be able to drop your target's strength to 0, against weak targets with poor fort saves.

2) Divine Power can be placed in a wand. UMD is a class skill for this build. You only need it against the large, strong opponents you face, since casters have a very poor grapple, compared to your (pre-buff) average grapple.

3) Strength is likely 2nd or 3rd priority with this build, possibly even 1st priority. You really only need Strength and Charisma, and not a horrid Con.
So, 15/14/13/12/10/8 would be Str15/Cha14/Con13/Dex12/Int10/Wis8

Which is kinda sad until you hit level 3 and pick up Ascetic Mage, since your wisdom sucks.

[Sir Giacomo]

I haven't read through all of this, so forgive me if this has been brought up already, but the Cosmopolitan feat, combined with a monk 15/sorc 5 with Ascetic Mage would be a pretty viable way to run this kind of build. That would make UMD a class skill (with a +2), and also give an incentive to have a high Cha.

Starting at level 3, you'd have 1 or 2 sorceror levels, so you don't have to worry about buying enlarge person wands.

Also, I like the idea of Chill Touch on a grapple build. Ray of Enfeeblement is also nice.

Wait...is this truly happening? Someone making a constructive comment on my build? THANK YOU!

Will include a link to that in the original guide above when next I update it.

Having said that, yes, the ascetic feats are good ways to multiclass a monk. In core, a single level dip into bard or rogue can help - depending on what you wish the build to achieve.

Then, the touch spells are quite good for grapplers, if you do not cast that often, since you can hold the charge indefinitely.
Shocking grasp gives you also a +3 to attack vs metal armoured foes. Touch of Idiocy can (when used with rod of maximisation) ruin the day of any caster.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

how so? it deals one whole strenght damage on a failed save and does a pathetic d6 damage, you also need to make a touch attack at -4 in a grapple which together with your probably not so good BaB/str makes it all but certain to hit your opponents.

An added d6 damage at low levels is already quite good. You also can try an unusual "turn undead" with a grapple.
The touch spell is btw triggered the moment you initiate the grapple with a touch attack, so you do not need to do a -4 touch attack later.

@Skjaldbakka: Yes, divine power is only really useful when you wish your monk to compete in combat with the full BAB classes (or whenever going against the biggies). Some posters doubted that a 50 charges divine power wand (21,000gp) will last through the whole campaign, but I'd say it would.

- Giacomo

[Stupendous_Man]

more wands/ scrolls?