"But I just wanted to be liked!" Charm Person and ethics

[Solo]

I'm sure someone has allready mentioned this, and I haven't read the entire thread yet. I just wanted to point out that this scenario isn't necessarily perfectly accurate. If the wizard really just wants FRIENDS, and is using charm person to get them...

It would be like showing up to a party, spiking peoples drinks, and then having deep discussions about the universe with them while they site in slack jawed awe.

Still not cool, but it's not quite the same as giving someone a roofie and taking them off into seclusion.

Then, one day, the wizard figures out how to cast "charm person" and various other spells that make them irresistable to the CHA 17 cheerleading bards.

I await your response.

[Collin152]

Where is Collin152? I thought mind-taking was his schtick.

On Holiday, Dammit!

Enchantments are not evil!
Just the way they are used!

Likewise, charming girls isn't innatley evil.
I still wouldn't do it.

Now don't go discussing mind altering spells while I'm out of state, or you'll find your mind a little less... Un-raped.

[Mewtarthio]

Likewise, charming girls isn't innatley evil.
I still wouldn't do it.

What if you'd run out of mind rapes for the day?

[SoD]

What if you'd run out of mind rapes for the day?

Get a wand? Or several...of course, you charm the wand salesman to give them to you in the first place...

What would be interesting, sorcerers don't always have full controll of their powers for quite a while...haveing a sorcerer geeky type guy who doesn't realise he's charming people with the use of italics texts.

Even he doesn't understand why the hot, uh, charismatic girls like him.

[Blanks]

This discussion boils down to a few questions:

What is the value of free will?
Immense or low?

What is the nature of Charm person?
Sort of like dominate, sort of like perfume, or homebrewed rules?


I'm on the "Free will has an immense value, no matter what" side. Thats just my basic value.

Regarding charm person, I think it is more like Dominate than perfume. As someone pointed out, with Charisma checks you can make people do something they otherwise wouldn't.
(And wether that is "talk to me", "come to this dark room with me" or "be my slave" is just a matter of degree, not different things altogether)

[Khanderas]

Think of it in a different way, does this make the Jedi mind trick also far more questionable?

The intent is quite another.
"theese are not the droids you are looking for" (because if they were you would try to kill me and then I would have to kill you for doing your job).

[Collin152]

What if you'd run out of mind rapes for the day?

One: The spell used is not in question, but rather the target. Wink wink.

Two: Mindrape is the gift that keeps on giving. You only need it once.

Unless you're me.
In which case, after running out of Mindrapes, I use a liberal combination of Detect Thoughts and Suggestion.

[Tokiko Mima]

One: The spell used is not in question, but rather the target. Wink wink.

Two: Mindrape is the gift that keeps on giving. You only need it once.

Unless you're me.
In which case, after running out of Mindrapes, I use a liberal combination of Detect Thoughts and Suggestion.

Or you could use an extended Hold Person and Programmed Amnesia?

Ask your parents permission before doing this at home, kids.

[Collin152]

Or you could use an extended Hold Person and Programmed Amnesia?

Ask your parents permission before doing this at home, kids.

Hold Person lasts as long as they fail saves, so no extending there. Plus, more fun when the guy is allowed to move.
If I can cast Programmed Amnesia, why not Mindrape?

Trust me, when the mind altering spells go flying, you will wish I just left it at a suggestion. I am the master of Enchantment on these boards, and I can jury rig horrible rape out of nigh any of the spells in my arsenal. Otto's Irresistable Dance... doesn't specify what the dance is, for instance. I know of a few choice dances to force upon you.

[Rutee]

See, if Collin supports it, and it involves the mind affecting spells, you /know/ it's wrong

Sidenote though, you don't get to choose the target's dance with Otto's Irresistable Dance. The compulsion merely forces them /to/ dance, not to dance X" So target chooses.

[AKA_Bait]

Sidenote though, you don't get to choose the target's dance with Otto's Irresistable Dance. The compulsion merely forces them /to/ dance, not to dance X" So target chooses.

Yeah, but come on, its just much more fun if you make the Dragon do the Chicken Dance than the White Boy Shuffle and mechanically I don't think there's any real difference.

[Rutee]

Yeah, but my players would probably want to do something either fantastically cool as a dance, or stunningly lame (The Elaine Dance), and I wouldn't want to deny them the option..

[Collin152]

See, if Collin supports it, and it involves the mind affecting spells, you /know/ it's wrong

Sidenote though, you don't get to choose the target's dance with Otto's Irresistable Dance. The compulsion merely forces them /to/ dance, not to dance X" So target chooses.

I object!
I'm True Neutral, so you can't generalise alignments based on me!

Now, generally speaking, when the spell doesn't specify some detail that generally has no mechanical effect, you get to pick it.
What your magic missile looks like, whether your prismatic spray looks like a rainbow or a headache, and so forth.

But if you insist, suggestion.
It may be low level, but it's a miracle worker.

[ashmanonar]

No, but I'd kick his ass anyways.

This is where I'd bring in the Crusader/Warblade Dwarf with Moment of Perfect Mind, Iron Heart Surge (Wait, that doesn't even work against half the stuff that could be used...crap.), the Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Protection feats, and a Magebane spiked chain.

Byebye Sorcerer.

Yeah, but my players would probably want to do something either fantastically cool as a dance, or stunningly lame (The Elaine Dance), and I wouldn't want to deny them the option..

It forces them to do the Macarena.

Their own people would want to kill them.

[Krrth]

If you look at just the mechanics of D&D, perhaps, but if you start adding reasonable fluff it can start looking pretty grim very quickly.

Coincidentally, I've been reading my way through the Dresden files over the last few months... it has an interesting presentation on what makes up black magic.

To be fair, if you use the Dresdenverse ethics/morals, using charm person gets you killed. Of course, I understand (and agree) with the reasons behind it, just not the "one strike and you're beheaded" policy.

[AKA_Bait]

To be fair, if you use the Dresdenverse ethics/morals, using charm person gets you killed. Of course, I understand (and agree) with the reasons behind it, just not the "one strike and you're beheaded" policy.

Well, I think that's sort of the point. It's to illustrate how draconian and unforgiving the White Counsel can be.

[Zeful]

I read a book on a very similar subject. In the book the protagonist is a fairly normal teenaged girl with a crush. She stumbles across a book of spells and messes around with a love spell, making all the guys at her school infatuated with her, including her jock crush. She makes a few other mistakes before undoing everything. Everything goes back to before any of this happens with two exceptions, she's got two new friends, and a new boyfriend, the jock. Even after being given his free will back, he chose to stay.

This brings up an important point: If you would ,under normal circumstances, befriend someone, how would charm person be wrong?

[Collin152]

This brings up an important point: If you would ,under normal circumstances, befriend someone, how would charm person be wrong?

Shortcuts are a form of cheating.
Cheating is wrong.

Furthermore, normal circumstances become irrelevant when you cast the spell, as you have changed the circumstances. The spell goes down, they might not want to be your friend now.

That's why we have three lovely spells to help us out: Modify Memory, Programmed Amnesia, and Mindrape.

[AKA_Bait]

This brings up an important point: If you would ,under normal circumstances, befriend someone, how would charm person be wrong?

Well, I'd think because you can't know that they would befriend you until they did. Once they did, there is no need for the spell.

Also, the spell makes them stay your friend too, even if you start doing things that they would disapprove of.

[Krrth]

Well, I think that's sort of the point. It's to illustrate how draconian and unforgiving the White Counsel can be.

That is most likley one of the reasons. I think the other reason, the one where that rule got implimented in the first place, was that once you start messing with someones free will-no matter how slightly- You start down "the dark path". It might take repeated castings, but it still wrong.

[Zeful]

Well, I'd think because you can't know that they would befriend you until they did. Once they did, there is no need for the spell.

Also, the spell makes them stay your friend too, even if you start doing things that they would disapprove of.

There only you friend for the duration of the spell, which I'm pretty sure isn't permanent.

[AKA_Bait]

There only you friend for the duration of the spell, which I'm pretty sure isn't permanent.

Yes, but in that interum they still aren't going to take actions to stop you from doing whatever thing you were doing, so long as you give them some very thin justification, which a real friend might.

[Frosty]

Sidenote though, you don't get to choose the target's dance with Otto's Irresistable Dance. The compulsion merely forces them /to/ dance, not to dance X" So target chooses.

But...but...but...I want my Power Word: Pole-dancing Striptease

Sidenote query: Is it wrong to use Suggestion to cause someone to think about their deepest fantasies and their preferences in mates so you can use Detect Thoughts to get this information and then using that info to seduce said person normally?

[AKA_Bait]

Sidenote query: Is it wrong to use Suggestion to cause someone to think about their deepest fantasies and their preferences in mates so you can use Detect Thoughts to get this information and then using that info to seduce said person normally?

You don't think that making the suggestion to think about their deepest fantasies might, you know, tip them off that you are trying to seduce them?

[Frosty]

I use Telepathy, and make my voice sound different. Or I use one of those spells that combine Sending with a Suggestion (I think it's Demand). He or she will have no idea who is making the suggestion. And the info is probably good for a while, so I can even wait a few days before the actual seduction.

[Collin152]

You don't think that making the suggestion to think about their deepest fantasies might, you know, tip them off that you are trying to seduce them?

Take a level of Mindbender. Make your suggestion Telepathic.

Note that this is not using the telepathic suggestion class feature, just the telepathy. You only need a new medium to convey your suggestion.
That's why it's a pointless class feature.

Also, it is totally fine to do that. I suggest you go and do that right now. While you are at it, gather up all the girls in the world in the process. Doesn't matter which side of it they're on.

Edit: My worthy foe, your Ninja skills are great, but can you dodge a Mindrape?

[AKA_Bait]

Frosty and Collin: It bothers me that you have thought this through so much.

That said, it would be about as wrong as sneaking into her house, reading her diary and checking all the adult sites in her computer history I suppose. It's an invasion of privacy, and wrong, but not really really really really wrong.

[Inyssius Tor]

Well, I think that's sort of the point. It's to illustrate how draconian and unforgiving the White Counsel can be.

No, there's really a very serious reason behind each of the Laws. Here's the rationale behind the relevant one:

Spoiler

Show

The Fourth Law
Never Enthrall Another.
A close cousin of the Third, the Fourth Law goes beyond the simple invasion of another's mind to outright mastery over it. Here, enthralling is any effort made to change the natural inclinations, choices, and behaviors of another person. And due to its cousin Law, it's pretty easy to see the Fourth as an extension of the concepts there—a case of more equals worse.

It's easy to see someone who uses mind magic to turn a handful of free-thinking people into their sex slaves as a bad guy, but this is definitely one of those situations where the paving stones of good intentions are particularly slick. Much like the Third Law, the Fourth is an easy one to want to break for all the best of reasons. Plenty of people out in the world—possibly even your friends—make bad choices. Magic could give you the power to change those choices. Know someone who's tearing their life apart with drugs? A simple compulsion to make them afraid of touching the stuff could set them on the straight and narrow.

Of course, the problems here are substantial. To change someone's mind enough to force a different course of behavior, you have to hit them with some pretty vicious psychological trauma. Worse, you may not even realize you're doing it at the time. It might sound relatively harmless to implant an aversion to, say, fatty foods to help someone lose weight, but the effect is a lot like wrapping someone's legs in barbed wire in order to keep them from walking to the fridge.

Why so violent? A lot of it comes down to the principles of free will. The thing that makes mortals fundamentally human is free will; when you enthrall someone, overriding their will with your own, you've robbed them of their essential ability to be and act human.

This is where another of the Fourth Law's cousins—the Second—comes into play. Changing someone's behavior is a lot like changing someone's body. In both cases, the target you're changing is a lot more complex than your understanding of it can manage. And if there's one conceptual thread that runs particularly strongly through the first four Laws, it's that the mind is more or less equivalent to the body in terms of what should and should not be done with it. Like the body, the mind is vast and intricately complex. When you decide to take that complexity on with something as crude and simple as a compulsion, psychological trauma is inevitable. In the end, it's much like trying to fix a computer's motherboard with a hammer. Even if you get it working the way you want, chances are you've messed something else up pretty bad along the way.

[Mewtarthio]

Everything goes back to before any of this happens with two exceptions, she's got two new friends, and a new boyfriend, the jock. Even after being given his free will back, he chose to stay.

This brings up an important point: If you would ,under normal circumstances, befriend someone, how would charm person be wrong?

You can't underestimate the power of cognitive dissonance. Even a short-term charm spell could be enough, in the real world, to make someone your friend even though they never would be without magic. They are compelled to obey your commands, so they make up their own justifications for their actions. If you, for instance, use enchantment magic to seduce someone, then the morning after they will believe they slept with you of their own free will; therefore, they must really like you (or at least find you attractive).

In short, that question is irrelevant, as short of divination spells (I cast detect potential friend!) there's no way to tell if they would have liked you anyway, not even by seeing how they treat you when the spell wears off.

Sidenote query: Is it wrong to use Suggestion to cause someone to think about their deepest fantasies and their preferences in mates so you can use Detect Thoughts to get this information and then using that info to seduce said person normally?

Well, it's obviously a pretty big invasion of privacy. The suggestion spell itself is iffy--At best, I'd consider it to be tantamount to a rather mean-spirited prank. Using that information to pretend to be someone your target would be attracted to is decietful and morally wrong. If you just use this combo to find people with, say, mutual fetishes or something, then it's still wrong, but not quite as bad as before: They were, after all, keeping that information private for a reason.

[AKA_Bait]

No, there's really a very serious reason behind each of the Laws. Here's the rationale behind the relevant one:

Spoiler

Show

The Fourth Law
Never Enthrall Another.
A close cousin of the Third, the Fourth Law goes beyond the simple invasion of another's mind to outright mastery over it. Here, enthralling is any effort made to change the natural inclinations, choices, and behaviors of another person. And due to its cousin Law, it's pretty easy to see the Fourth as an extension of the concepts there—a case of more equals worse.

It's easy to see someone who uses mind magic to turn a handful of free-thinking people into their sex slaves as a bad guy, but this is definitely one of those situations where the paving stones of good intentions are particularly slick. Much like the Third Law, the Fourth is an easy one to want to break for all the best of reasons. Plenty of people out in the world—possibly even your friends—make bad choices. Magic could give you the power to change those choices. Know someone who's tearing their life apart with drugs? A simple compulsion to make them afraid of touching the stuff could set them on the straight and narrow.

Of course, the problems here are substantial. To change someone's mind enough to force a different course of behavior, you have to hit them with some pretty vicious psychological trauma. Worse, you may not even realize you're doing it at the time. It might sound relatively harmless to implant an aversion to, say, fatty foods to help someone lose weight, but the effect is a lot like wrapping someone's legs in barbed wire in order to keep them from walking to the fridge.

Why so violent? A lot of it comes down to the principles of free will. The thing that makes mortals fundamentally human is free will; when you enthrall someone, overriding their will with your own, you've robbed them of their essential ability to be and act human.

This is where another of the Fourth Law's cousins—the Second—comes into play. Changing someone's behavior is a lot like changing someone's body. In both cases, the target you're changing is a lot more complex than your understanding of it can manage. And if there's one conceptual thread that runs particularly strongly through the first four Laws, it's that the mind is more or less equivalent to the body in terms of what should and should not be done with it. Like the body, the mind is vast and intricately complex. When you decide to take that complexity on with something as crude and simple as a compulsion, psychological trauma is inevitable. In the end, it's much like trying to fix a computer's motherboard with a hammer. Even if you get it working the way you want, chances are you've messed something else up pretty bad along the way.

I think my point was missed. I wasn't talking about the White Counsel being draconian because they punish people for using mind altering spells. I was talking about how the punishment being death was draconian.