Erf 118, Pg 106

[Vanguard]

Ruthlessness! (Can't wait for the next few comics!)

Enfrikintence.

[DarkNewton]

Anyone else think Parsons new sword is Conan-rific?

[dragongirl13]

I did the maze. Oh man, I can't wait to see how this comes out.

Red eyes... ULTRACOOL!

[SteveMB]

Anyone else think Parsons new sword is Conan-rific?

Just an off-topic observation -- great avatar!

[Glome]

My problem with the dwagon debacle was that Parson made an apparently pointless risk. The wounded dwagons and the donut were placed in such a manner that Jillian, in moving directly towards Ansom, went directly past the dwagons, and that Ansom could move from his starting position to the center of the donut to the wounded dwagons...

This thread here explains why this isn't a problem, you might want to read through it for your answer
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88843

[dr pepper]

Leadership, Combat, Ruthlessness.

Seems to sort of echo an earlier set:

Leverage, Synergy, Paradigm.

[Richbin]

This thread here explains why this isn't a problem, you might want to read through it for your answer
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88843

You sir, are the very incarnation of hilarity
Kudos and salutations to you

humour, cynicism, sarcasm, another set!

[xopher.tm]

People need to lighten up.

Quoted For Truth.

[Zolem]

My interpretation was that if the dwagons were further away they would not have had sufficient move to take out the rest of the siege. Putting the dwagons over the lake was the best option without using more move. Using more move meant croaking less siege. Croaking less than 100% of the siege meant that Ansom was still a threat.

Truth be told, we don't have enough information to determine whether or not Parson could have put the dwagons anywhere further away. To do that we would need full information on the dwagon's move, the position of the siege, the effective move of the column, the placement of archery units throughout the column, etc.

For all we know, those Dwagon's had 0 move left for the turn, so that's the best defensive location in the world he could have retreated to.

Huge assumptions being made here... we don't know how much of a leadership bonus Parson is getting from the sword (could be as little as +1).

Second, this is not a 'Deus ex Machina' because we all knew it was going to happen. We didn't know the details, but we didn't have to. We knew that the sword was coming, and we knew it would improve Parson's chances of victory. That is not a 'Deus ex Machina', in any sense of the phrase (if a car plane lands and titans get out, telling Ansom to leave GK alone, THAT would be a 'Deus ex Machina' in every sense of the term).

As for the comic being plot driven, of course it is. It's story. Whatever made you think it wouldn't be plot driven?

lol best definition of Deus Ex Machina ever. The term origionates in Greek Theater, whereing actors dressed as the Gods would be lowered via a lift (machine) and do stuff just like that, providing a direct solution The End. I personaly think it'll be a higher bonus that+1 (I'm personaly going for +10) but it's from the natural evolution of the story liek you said. Before, everyone was excited about the 'sword bonus', then as soon as Ruthlessness came in with it, they wanted it gone. They wanted the leadership bonus and/or combat ability, they just didn't want the third effect so they're now crying to have it taken away. And I think they were expecting it to be more charecter than event driven. Not in a war arc. Maybe after the battle we can get a lot more charecter based plot, but right now it's based around events and how they affect the people in the battle.

Jilian does not know how far away from Ansom the dwagons are. They don't know how much move the dwagons had left when they stopped attacking. All they know is where the dwagons were last seen, and where the B dwagons are. As far as they know, the A dwagons flew all the way around and are behind Jillian.

Well, probably not, they'd have a good idea how much move they used, so they could narrow down the area a good bit bassed off that.

[Zeku]

Oh lawd. What have I done.

Regardless of the binary, holistic, ineffable, or morally improbable status of Parson's PerfectWarlordiness, he definitely made some brilliant decisions which were then partially ruined by someone else's judgement error, or lack of faith.

These are the facts. Standing upon this fully visible foundation, there's really nothing left to discuss.

[Occasional Sage]

To be fair, they have made suggestions (notably moving the wounded dwagons further away from the column), but it is an untestable hypothesis to claim that doing so would have been better. We simply do not have enough information either way. So it is a matter of whether or not you give Parson the benefit of the doubt.

I choose to do so, because it makes the story more interesting.

And *that*, right there, might be the best Razor I've seen yet.

[ishnar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_sacrifice

Wow, that link makes Bent Larsen sound like an idiot.

Bent Larsen has remarked [1] that giving up the queen for rook and two minor pieces is sometimes called a "queen sacrifice", but since a rook plus two minor pieces is more valuable than the queen, he calls this nonsense.

I think he totally forgot that the pieces represent people. It doesn't matter how much the King is compensated for ordering another piece to it's doom. If losing his queen gains him 10 pieces, the queen is still dead.

I object to the term Sham Sacrifice for the same reason.

[Occasional Sage]

Not only that, but there's two exits. One (the sad Parson) goes to the back of the mountain, while the other (the happy savage Parson) ends at the front of Gobwin Knob, where the enemy is coming from.

The one by "sad Parson" is the entrance. The route through the maze passes through each of his magic items, in the order he received them. The sword has the maze exit to "happy savage Parson."

Symbolism, anybody?

[jami]

Anyone else think Parsons new sword is Conan-rific?

"Crush your enemies. See them run before you! HEAR THE LAMENTATION OF THE WOMEN!" Best line evar!

[Occasional Sage]

"Crush your enemies. See them run before you! HEAR THE LAMENTATION OF THE WOMEN!" Best line evar!

I thought it was "the lamentation of their women"?

Either way, yes. Ya'll need to reference it in the next couple of Erfs.

[tomaO2]

Usually don't answer multiple posts but...

Because 'surmise' means 'guess or conclude with insufficient evidence'. Ansom didn't know, but he decided to proceed as if they were low on move. This was strategically speaking the right decision, because if they had a lot of move left, they would have been too far away for him to find them. Better to take action on the possibility of success than to give up because you assume there is no chance of success...

I thought the argument was based on what we knew. That there was uncertainty as to why Ansom was acting the way he did. There is no need for that, it's because he figured the dwagons were low move. He wasn't certain they were low move but he was acting like he was. At that point, is there a real difference?

They were at the lake edge at one point of the conversation, but they were busily crossing the border. Moments later, they found the dwagons. When they find the dwagons, they are over the lake.

That said, I don't see that they would be entering that lake at the hex in question - it must have been their next hex.

And yet, the dragons had not yet been seen. I would guess that the rule is, you don't see out of forest hexes, light or heavy.

It's a confusing bit. I had first assumed that you could see the hex in front of you when it's not a forrest hex but I'm not so sure anymore. However, if you can only see what is in your hex, then how can you, for instance, see what's next to you. For example, when your looking across from the walls of Gobwin Knob to the enemy and vice versa. Clarification would be appreciated.

Some "regulars" were so disappointed with the way things were depicted in the strip that they even stopped posting here (surfing half-orc comes to mind).

I certainly did. This bit really choked me up. I would have stopped reading the comic altogether for at least a few months, except it's pretty hard when you to visit the site to look at the other comic you read but I eventually decided that since it's acknowledged that they can't win without some defections from that allies, that is acceptable to me.

Hardly a dead horse though. I came up with some observations that I had never read before when I was talking about it the first time. Besides, it's been awhile since it was mentioned last. It was an extremely important scene. It did a complete reversal of the standard trope. The guys with the small army are suppost to be able to come up with brilliant harrasing moves on the unstoppable juggernaut that is coming to kill them. People LIKE it when the little guy wins. When David takes down Golith. Bad enough when it fails but when it backfires like it did here... What do you expect?

The funniest thing about it all, mind, is that all these people who call Parson's Donut of Doom stupid all do so with the benefit of hindsight and that NONE of them have offered a plausible alternative plan he could have used.

The plan was basically good but where he positioned his dwagons is what we have a problem with and everyone appears to agree that it was a mistake (the only disagreement is the degree). There has indeed been talk as to how it would have been better. Namely by not putting it so near to where Jillian would be coming from.

The lake hex was a trap of sorts because it allowed him to be potentially found twice. If Ansom had discovered them, then he still had enough troops to kill the wounded dwagons, he avoided that. However, Jillian found him instead and there was still enough troops to kill him. Maybe Parson could have killed him back but no one wanted it to come to that. Therefore he should have picked based on what was least likely to be searched rather then what stopped the most troops from killing him if found.

One nuke kills you as easily as a hundred.

Anyone else think Parsons new sword is Conan-rific?

Yes, but too small. Really wish there had been a fourth part.

[Vreejack]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][COLOR="Indigo"]
It's a confusing bit. I had first assumed that you could see the hex in front of you when it's not a forrest hex but I'm not so sure anymore. However, if you can only see what is in your hex, then how can you, for instance, see what's next to you. For example, when your looking across from the walls of Gobwin Knob to the enemy and vice versa. Clarification would be appreciated.

The bats can apparently see just into the outer edge of the adjacent hexes, just enough to identify the terrain type. This I judge from the blown -up maps of the original scouting expedition, which clearly showed the outer edge of the dwagon lake Ansom and Vinnie originally missed.

[warmachine]

For me, this strip is the best evidence so far that Parson is in a coma-induced hallucination. In a world without children, Parson's items come in the guise of children's toys but accompanied by more adult language. The meal creation seems too close to Parson's personality to be a natural process of that universe. The latest meal tells Parson the attitude he needs to win the battle. It seems more likely Parson is regaining the will to live and the meals come from his subconsciousness, rather than a natural process can read people's values and beliefs and issue advice for their current situation.

[LordVader]

"Crush your enemies. See them run before you! HEAR THE LAMENTATION OF THE WOMEN!" Best line evar!

Actually, I've heard a better real-life one off Warseer.
"What I desire is to slay my enemies, drive them before me, hear the lamentations of their women and hold their mothers and daughters to my bosom" or some such. I think it was one of the steppe warriors' lords. Nice guy.


I really hope that Erfworld is not a hallucination. It would cheapen the whole experience and the whole comic, making it empty and hollow; the characters that we loved would all be shown to be nothing but a mirage. I know that I'd be disgusted with Erfworld if this happened.

But, as we see scenes from Erfworld before we meet Parson, I retain hope that it is real, and not a hallucination.

[Grubsnik]

Hmm, time for an alternate theory about what "ruthlessness" means.

It is a self-altering buff for Parson. It provides him with the same fatigue-less qualities as everyone else in Erfworld, as well gets rid of the "what if i die here" thoughts that have been circulating in his mind.

Even with the sword granting Parson the ability to handle himself combat, he would still be a badly overweight nerd, who (most likely) prefers his violence at tac-screen distance.

[teratorn]

I think it was one of the steppe warriors' lords. Nice guy.

It's probably based on a passage from a book by Harlod Lamb, GENGHIS KAHN: THE EMPEROR OF ALL MEN:

Originally written by Harlod Lamb

One day in the pavilion at Karakorum he asked an officer of the Mongol guard what, in all the world, could bring the greatest happiness.

"The open steppe, a clear day, and a swift horse under you," responded the officer after a little thought, "and a falcon on your wrist to start up hares."

"Nay," responded the Kahn, "to crush your enemies, to see them fall at your feet -- to take their horses and goods and hear the lamentation of their women. That is best."

Of course this might be based on some historical notes, but that I don't know.

[Richbin]

But, as we see scenes from Erfworld before we meet Parson, I retain hope that it is real, and not a hallucination.

However, we do know that he had been working on just such a world for months now. It is entirely possible that he spawned this universe i nhis subconsciousness.
And it would not spoil it for me, however, I suspect that this is not what the author has in mind - this is only volume the first. This would imply that there shall be more tales. If ever that would indeed be the case, we would only find out about it at the very end of the telling, simply to make it impossibile ever to go back again (no more sequel for you!)

[The Old Hack]

The plan was basically good but where he positioned his dwagons is what we have a problem with and everyone appears to agree that it was a mistake (the only disagreement is the degree). There has indeed been talk as to how it would have been better.

By suggesting piddling alterations with the benefit of hindsight, not by proposing something entirely different in nature from scratch. Even "Wait another turn for Ansom to come closer so as to have Move enough to withdraw everything to the safety of GK" would have been more original. It might not have worked as Ansom would likely have reorganised his flyers by then, but it would at least have been a greater difference.

Namely by not putting it so near to where Jillian would be coming from.

Ah. Which all these people complaining happened to know about because they had the benefit of hindsight. Now, if they had objected to the plan before Jillian's Turn, I might have been more impressed with them...

[One Skunk Todd]

Anyone else think Parsons new sword is Conan-rific?

I was thinking the same thing:

http://www.mycoolcollectibles.com/im...46_7458832.jpg

[drachefly]

It's a confusing bit. I had first assumed that you could see the hex in front of you when it's not a forrest hex but I'm not so sure anymore. However, if you can only see what is in your hex, then how can you, for instance, see what's next to you. For example, when your looking across from the walls of Gobwin Knob to the enemy and vice versa. Clarification would be appreciated.

The proposal was that forest also prevents your looking out, at least unless special effort is made to look in that direction - a move attempt, say, which would be blocked by water in the case of ground units. That would be why the lake, being surrounded by forest, would actually be a decent hiding place. None of the units swarming around the donut would be looking lakewards.

[teratorn]

However, if you can only see what is in your hex, then how can you, for instance, see what's next to you. For example, when your looking across from the walls of Gobwin Knob to the enemy and vice versa. Clarification would be appreciated.

When Webinar is going after Jillian with his group of heavies, they see a road in front of them but they wait until it's their turn to enter it, so I'd guess it's another hex. I think you can seen into neighboring hexes, but only the edge for the things are huge. Ansom's map is consistent with that, at the time I guessed where the dwagons were based on the patch showing what could very well be a lake.

[Osgiliath]

Oh man I waited a while for there to be a new comic checking 3 times a day for answers to the MANY questions that are swimming around in my head to only find MORE questions. I can't WAIT for some resolutions. At least they're not pulling off a, "There she is step 4" on us.

Something no one else pointed out (and if someone did no one on the first page did) didn't anyone else find it amusing that Parson got a full day's dose of Luckamancy from Luck Charms? Really nice touch from the author.

Anyone think the author would want to make a game system using the rules from erfworld? Of course, after this comic has finished its first installment since it LOVES to spice up the comic by using rules which we did not know existed.

Just a thought ^^

Oh and it is nice to know that the summon spell DID goof up in summoning Parson, and that he wasn't SUPPOSED to be here or something. Too bad there won't be any new toys for Parson for breakfast anymore. This must be what the "Special" warlord item that the Subway meal listed. Anyone else have an opinion if the team composition is a product of the summoning spell, just as the glasses, mathamancy arm guard and the sword?

[sihnfahl]

Anyone think the author would want to make a game system using the rules from erfworld? Of course, after this comic has finished its first installment since it LOVES to spice up the comic by using rules which we did not know existed.

This was brought up back when the comic first started. The authors, if I recall, admitted that they weren't tabletop gamers and had no idea how to make a game like this; however, they didn't rule out fans coming together and hashing out the rules and such on their own. Provided, of course, that the authors get a little something in return for introducing the world.

It got enough attention that the comic Weregeek made a page where Erf game pieces showed up.

Oh and it is nice to know that the summon spell DID goof up in summoning Parson, and that he wasn't SUPPOSED to be here or something.

No, it didn't goof up in that he wasn't supposed to be here. It did exactly what was advertised. However, Parson, as a human from Earth, wasn't adjusted by the summoning spell to fit into Erfworld conventions (stats, abilities and the like) and was left as-is. The meals have been popping with items to counter that little mess-up - to give him artifically (through Erfmagic) what he lacks naturally (things he'd have had if he were Erfian).

[Doug Lampert]

Anyone else think Parsons new sword is Conan-rific?

"Crush your enemies. See them run before you! HEAR THE LAMENTATION OF THE WOMEN!" Best line evar!

I'm sure if he were alive Gengis Khan would appreciate that compliment toward what are reputed to be his words.

Meanwhile Robert E. Howard never put those lines into Conan's mouth. A movie scriptwriter may have, but he stole them from someone else.

[tomaO2]

Ah. Which all these people complaining happened to know about because they had the benefit of hindsight. Now, if they had objected to the plan before Jillian's Turn, I might have been more impressed with them...

The difference is that Parson had the benifit of foresight. Jillian had 52 moves for her group and I already demonstrated that it most have taken at least 50 to get to Ansom's hex. We couldn't know that until the move was already done but Parson did. He knew the range of Jillian's group and could have put his units outside of it. It's not difficult. We know he calculated it because he said "Ansom's air units mostly can't reach". If a bat had found him because Ansom wasn't fooled by the doughnut formation... Well, that's how it goes but he was one hex beside the route that was Jillian's most efficient route back to Ansom. He took a needless risk for the perceived and illusionary protection of a lake hex when he should have just concentrated in picking the best hiding spot he could.