Erfworld 119, page 107

[headhoncho]

You don't even understand the difference between primary magic and and dabbling in magic...You ignored my post in favor of your own cherished beliefs. I can't see how I could politely debate anything you have to say on the subject when you totally dismiss what I say. So I won't, it's pointless. You don't want debate, you just want to argue.

With your sweeping generalizations, your belief that everything that comes out of your mouth is somehow TRVTH, and your dismissive attitude toward others, I'd say you're the one who is just looking for an argument, and isn't interested in a reasoned discussion.

Of course, given that you're the same person who seems insistent that Parson is stupid despite all evidence to the contrary simply because he doesn't share your and Stanley's obsessive attachment to dwagons, the above doesn't surprise me.

That there is no foreshadowing whatsoever that units can change their types and Wanda would have HAD to have changed her caster type because why else would Jillian refer to her as a predictamancer?

Maybe because Jillian is careless with her words? Or genuinely sees her that way? And maybe foreshadowing is merely a literary tool, and not a law?

Look, I frankly think it's unlikely that Wanda was the predictamancer. I think it's more likely that the predictamancer was either slain in the attack on FAQ, or was slain or deserted subsequent to capture, or has gone barbarian. But my belief is a far cry from the type of bizarre insistence you seem to bring to just about every discussion. And it's entirely possible that the writers could make this happen in a way I would find satisfying. Mostly because it's a peripheral point, and hardly central to the plot or the story.

[AgentPaper]

@AgentPeper: Fine prove it. Show me something that is completely out of left field. Show me an instance where foreshadowing was not used on a very important matter. Something that seems contrary what we thought we knew. The story is like three quarters done now. Find me something.

What? You completely missed my point. I'm not trying to argue with you on that. Sure, if you think he's trying to avoid anything that we didn't see coming 10 panels in advance, then this is something that isn't going to happen. However, some of us take a less extreme view of that. Just because he doesn't want to make the story unpredictable doesn't mean that there won't be a twist or two. I mean, if I could tell you exactly what was going to happen the rest of the story, that's a pretty boring ass story, and Rob's a better author than that. Still, that's our opinion, and you have yours too. So unless you have something to add other than shoving a quote in our face and your interpretation of it, then please, bugger off. (respectfully)

[grumbleboom]

According to Sizemore, he got it after he became a warlord but before he became Heir Designate.

Thanks Fendrin forgot about that one.

[Charlicat]

I think it's more likely that the predictamancer was either slain in the attack on FAQ, or was slain or deserted subsequent to capture, or has gone barbarian.

Just a thought...maybe the Predictamancer predicted the attack on FAQ well enoungh to run, run, run to the Magic Kingdom.

1) Which city needs a veil this turn? FAQ
2) Will the veil be pierced? YES
3) Can the defenders successfully repel the attack? NO
4) Will my side fall? YES, YES IT WILL

C-ya Banhammer!

(Although personally, I like the Wanda theory and also thought the Arkenhammer Chaos wake was an AWESOME idea.)

[The Old Hack]

MAJOR EDIT:

Sorry Steve, you are correct. I thought he was accusing me of lying. Mainly because I got so angry I didn't read his whole post carefully.
Okay Hack, they stated that they want to tell a story not make unguessible twists. I don't know any other way to interpret that statement. Except to say that they are not going to toss things out completely from left field. There will be clues in what has been written as to how things will end. You're not offering an alternative, I doubt you really disagree with me. Don't get snarky.

Eh, Steve is right. I was being way too snarky there and I apologise for that.

(I think I must be in an unusually foul mood, I am being way over the top grouchy in my posting. Time for me to take a break from it until I cool down.)

[Talgar]

If FAQ was betrayed, and im not fully convinced that it was, could Jack, the Foolamancer have been the traitor? he had the means to do it, being part of the predictamancer-foolamancer vieling strategy. and if he liked Jillian, that could explain why she managed to be out of FAQ when it was conquered.

[fendrin]

If FAQ was betrayed, and im not fully convinced that it was, could Jack, the Foolamancer have been the traitor? he had the means to do it, being part of the predictamancer-foolamancer vieling strategy. and if he liked Jillian, that could explain why she managed to be out of FAQ when it was conquered.

Theoretically, however I would think that Jack would have been less likely to betray Faq because of his crush. I mean, why would he do that when it would mean they may never see each other again?

For that matter, he doesn't seem to have had a motive...

[Talgar]

motive! ugh, the one part of crime solving i always miss out on. though it has occurred to me that we dont know what Jack is like when he isnt linked or demented. still, it is unlikely, though possible, that he betrayed FAQ

[The Old Hack]

I have it! Actually the fall of Faq was caused by Ansom's armourer's unit second-in-command's girlfriend's garrison commander's former junior Lookamancer's apprentice's henchman's mount's stablemaster, in a diabolical plot aimed at causing the downfall of Wanda's one-time Lackey's most hated rival's quartermaster's roommate's pen pal's squad leader's tschotchke's saddlemaker's imaginary friend! It all hangs together if only you think about it!

[Eugenitor]

This thread makes the baby Buddha cry.

[fendrin]

I have it! Actually the fall of Faq was caused by Ansom's armourer's unit second-in-command's girlfriend's garrison commander's former junior Lookamancer's apprentice's henchman's mount's stablemaster, in a diabolical plot aimed at causing the downfall of Wanda's one-time Lackey's most hated rival's quartermaster's roommate's pen pal's squad leader's tschotchke's saddlemaker's imaginary friend! It all hangs together if only you think about it!

My head 'asplode.

[Justyn]

... Two days and the thread has already degenerated almost to the point where I have to play the Hitler card. Don't make me play the Hitler card. Seriously, get back on track.

[Oracle_Hunter]

... Two days and the thread has already degenerated almost to the point where I have to play the Hitler card. Don't make me play the Hitler card. Seriously, get back on track.

Meta Godwin'd!

[dr pepper]

Warlord Owange
In the Thwone Woom
With the Cwub

[The Old Hack]

... Two days and the thread has already degenerated almost to the point where I have to play the Hitler card. Don't make me play the Hitler card.

I'll see your Hitler and raise you a Genghis Khan and a Napoleon.

[Cybaster]

Hoo boy, not good. If Jack knew Jillian and had a crush on her, and Stanley awakens him right into the choke point where Jack sees Jillian again... Well, let's just say that Stanley is screwed if the awakened Foolamancer isn't bound by loyalty rules anymore...

I could totally see Jack awakening to realize that Stanley is forcing him to fight Jillian, but since he's no longer Stanley's Foolamancer, Jack casts an illusion to isolate everyone, subdues Stanley, and hands him over to Jillian for butchering --- all before Parson commences his attack. That might be the final deathblow Ansom needs to achieve total victory.

[Grubsnik]

Jack casts an illusion to isolate everyone, subdues Stanley, and hands him over to Jillian for butchering

I'm pretty sure that even though stanley is a small annoying "thing", you don't want to go hand-to-hand fighting with an experienced overlord wielding an arkenhammer.

I think the "plot-twists" Rob wants to avoid are the ones you never saw coming. Like Ansom dissolving the coalition and going home, because his playtime were up, or the Titans showing up and killing the entire coalition and giving the arkenpliers to Stanley, since he did after all, have the divine mandate for it.

[Justyn]

...or the Titans showing up and killing the entire coalition and giving the arkenpliers to Stanley, since he did after all, have the divine mandate for it.

Now that is a true Deus Ex Machina.

[kreszantas]

This is TOTB: For those who do not want to believe or think that in my prior post that Sizemore is not shown in the frame right after Jack, Wanda and Branhammer.

1) Sizemore is a master tunneler
2) Preferes Philosphy over warfare
3) Branhammer and Saline were allies
4) He would know of FAQ existance by merely being an Envoy or diplomatic unit.

Stanley would not need to have Wanda to be an active predictamancer to betray FAQ, Sizemore would do quite nicely and Stanley would have some knowledge of his units activity based where they are located as Overlord.

Stanley could have taken it unaided in the very beginning of his quest he had to abandon it since he kept GK as his captiol since only 1 capitol per side.

[MattR]

To Toma02

1) Quote: ''Here is the quote. "There are some webcomics that want to fool the reader, and put a high price on unguessable twists; we actually just want the story we're telling to be understood."

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...49&postcount=5

Satisfied? Take this quote to heart. It's the key to figuring out how things will end.’’

I see plenty of things mentioned in the comic that would let us speculate that Wanda is the predictamancer without it seeming like it draws on no evidence. The story is so well written it leaves the matter open to debate for now.

2) Quote: ''Your whole theory lies in Wanda being able to change from being a Predicamancer to a Croakamancer. Where is the evidence for such an outrageous claim?

Yes, Wanda can certainly handle a wide variety of magics but FAQ needed a specialised unit, not an amateur. Not one mistake can be allowed and we have certainly seen Wanda make mistakes outside of her specialty. It's not enough. Nowhere NEAR enough.’’

What evidence do we have that casters have a label attached to their butt saying they are such and such a specialisation of caster. The character bio can’t be used to prove everything conclusively as they were written right at the beginning of the comic and wont mention many plot elements. They would never say things like: Wanda - Croakamancer (Ex-predictamancer of Faq), but it doesn’t exclude it from being true.

3) Quote: ‘’Keep it simple, keep it with what's knowable. The plot will be shaped by the details that have already been revealed. Not wild flights of imagination.’’

And then you say….

''First, Stanley attacked FAQ, then he goes of with all the casters except, possibly, the predictomancer. Second, King Saline IV and the Predictomancer are assassinated…’’

Where is YOUR evidence that a predictamancer or in fact any unit besides King Saline was assasinated? That seems like a flight of imagination to me.

4) Quote: ‘’Your like the little Beckler fan that cannot believe that Beckler is actually Chaotic Evil because you really like the guy. ‘’

My god, oots comic is posted on the same site… you can clearly spell… do you realise how badly it harms your argument or how disrespectful it seems when you misname a character like that?

5) Quote: ’*sighs* It's the simplest explanation. The author LIKES simple explanations. ‘’

Just before Parson initiated the Dragon Donut plan is there honestly anyone on these boards who knew what he was going to do for certain? No? The writer might like simple explanations but if it fits in with the context of the story he will certainly do the unexpected.

6) Quote: '’There was no mention of any other casters at FAQ and we know that this war has been going on for a short time. ‘’

Lets think about the casters that Jillian has referred to: a predictamancer (with no name and no clear picture of the individual in faq), foolamancer called Jack (with picture in faq) and wanda (to quote Jillian ‘’a caster’’, with picture in faq). Working off your logic you’ve just made the ‘Wanda is the predictamancer’ theory even stronger. Until another caster/predictamancer from Faq is introduced Wanda is the predictamancer by default as we know casters are rare. Kudos.

7) Quote: ‘’If I am wrong, it's because what was written has led me down the wrong path.’’

Exactly how could the writer do that if he holds to the quote you proposed from the beginning? To refresh your memory here is the quote: "There are some webcomics that want to fool the reader, and put a high price on unguessable twists; we actually just want the story we're telling to be understood."

8) Quote: ‘’Fault lies when a person's wishes are placed higher then what the evidence states. An example of me doing that was when I thought Parson had placed himself directly in the path of return of Jillian. I found that error and corrected it. Myself. Can you change your mind or are you steeped in your own dogma to try and grow?’’

It took many posters on this board days and pages of writing to get you to change your mind, don’t fool yourself into believing you changed your mind on your own. It was changed by confronting you with the facts. Please place credit where credit is due… with the dedicated members of this board who like to help out people who have lost their way.

9) Quote: ‘’I don't appreciate repeating myself. You obviously never read my previous post a few pages back that talked more detail on this thought. I was referring to this statement to reinforce that the coup had to have taken place after FAQ was taken. ‘’

Well I’ll repeat what I said awhile back. If Saline was in charge when FAQ was squashed it would make more sense that he would ultimately be the one being blamed for the attack.

10) Quote: ‘‘Your so caught up in this insane idea that people can change their professions that you have no idea how completely foreign it would be to Erfworld. Did Stanly choose to be a pikeman? No, because there Is. No. Choice. Even Parson cannot "choose" what he wants to be. He will never be anything but a warlord. Ever. Even if he's sent out as infantry, he's still a warlord. You are popped in cities and whatever your designation is, that is what you are for the rest of your life. Period. The only exception to this rule is when your promoted. So Stanly can be promoted to a Warlord or even an Overlord but even then that's not his choice. That is the choice of the city's king, the ONLY unit type that appears to truly have free choice.''

People are already discussing the theory that casters maybe popped with a randomly assigned specialisation... I don’t think it’s a stretch that it may be they’re popped with random levels of ability in the different areas of casting. A caster might begin with no specialisations at all and undergo training to actually become a caster of a certain subject if they show aptitude e.g. Dirtamancy. If that is the case Wanda as the Predictamancer would have been able to acquire training to do her job well.

11) Quote: ‘’So in your mind, Wanda somehow set up the situation where she destroys FAQ, puts Stanley on the throne and then makes sure that her new kingdom is completely destroyed by making enemies along the entire Western hemisphere? That would make her even dumber than Stanley in the master planning department. There is a relation here between FAQ and Saline but that's Stanly, not Wanda.’’

If she is/was controlling Stanley with a similar spell to the one that was outlined to be on Jillian she can’t command Stanley only nudge him in the right direction and hope he takes the hint. Stanley looks like a difficult person to nudge when his mind is set on something.

12) Quote: ‘’I also have a suspicion that the real player in all this is the Arkenhammer but I'd rather not advance any theories on that until we have more proof that the Aakenhammer is inteligent, other then the fact that his profile lists him as having "Bad taste in friends". The idea that it would set up this entire thing to get Stanley in charge seems more likely to me then am Erfworld subordinate actually plotting against a ruler that has been so good to him. How could he get past the Duty inhibitions otherwise?’’

You pointed out just a little earlier that if Wanda was in charge of the whole situation and let things get this bad she’s dumb. If your theory about the ‘intelligent’ hammer is correct wouldn’t that make the hammer dumb too?

Also do you think anyone is actually friends with Stanley? and if the hammer was manipulating Stanley is it being a friend to Stanley? I'm pretty sure its just a humorous turn of phrase.

--------------------------------------------------------------

To Lamech

‘’If she had practiced she wouldn't have screwed up.’’

The only mistake Maggie pointed out was that Wanda didn’t protect herself from the backlash. Within the parameters of the spell nothing seems to have gone wrong. Maggie never criticized that the spell failed through inept casting and were not sure if she suffered backlash intentially to spare the person she cast it on.

Incidentally reducing your Overlord to a cabbage or killing him outright would be an insanely stupid idea... which would explain why shed suffer through it as much as any 'love' she feels for Jillian.

[Savant]

Feels like it's getting a little hostile in here...

With that out of the way, here comes the opinions:

I don't think Wanda is the Predictamancer. It is possible that she can perform it, but I feel it puts Wanda too much into the role of all around supercaster and that would feel a bit out of place imho. She has said so herself that while she can manage quite a number of magicks, that she has no interests in them.

regarding the comment made previous I feel that while the Rob may not want to hide upcoming plots, that doesn't stop him from disguising them somewhat so that you need to be diligent enough to catch the clues so to speech, which makes the suspense that much more captivating.

My own predictions?

Banhammer's Predictamancer may have died at Faq, escaped, or even just been stuck frozen (Banhammer's kingdom was said to have 2 additional cities, and while Faq may have been wiped the other two would be stuck in suspended animation until the capital is reclaimed.)

Loyalty however would prevent Jack the Foolamancer from turning on Stanley.

Another problem is how did all of a sudden Wanda get Jack's name? In one of the blogs Parson puts, the graphic shows Jillian a stone floating in the air.

Perhaps Wanda has her lackey under control again?

[fendrin]

@MattR -

Yup, you hit all the highlights of the post I didn't want to write. Correction: I wanted to write it, but it would have had much more invective, which would have been bad all around. Well done.

[dr pepper]

Whoa! Can we tone down the personal stuff here? Toma, you are not the enemy here. Matt neither.

Kudos to the authors for making us care so much, but so far each reveal has made a lot of sense, and yes, left some of us feeling vindicated and others blindsided. It only shows that there is more to the story than any of us can easily deduce. But isn't that what we want?

Someone will always turn out to have figured wrong, it might even be you. Or me.

But that's ok, it doesn't make anyone a villain or a troll.

[dr pepper]

I'll see your Hitler and raise you a Genghis Khan and a Napoleon.

I'll see your napoleon and raise you a drum torte.

[dr pepper]

This is TOTB: For those who do not want to believe or think that in my prior post that Sizemore is not shown in the frame right after Jack, Wanda and Branhammer.

1) Sizemore is a master tunneler
2) Preferes Philosphy over warfare
3) Branhammer and Saline were allies
4) He would know of FAQ existance by merely being an Envoy or diplomatic unit.

Um, ok. Where do you get #3? And how do you get the part in #4 about Sizemore being diplomatic? That seems a strange function for a dirtomancer.

But assuming that, are you suggesting that Sizemore the Plaid took advantage of his diplomatic status to tunnel over to FAQ (either directly from GK or maybe from just beyond the chokepoint), so that he could participate in Banhammer's Permanent Symposium on Truth and Beauty?

[kreszantas]

Um, ok. Where do you get #3? And how do you get the part in #4 about Sizemore being diplomatic? That seems a strange function for a dirtomancer.

But assuming that, are you suggesting that Sizemore the Plaid took advantage of his diplomatic status to tunnel over to FAQ (either directly from GK or maybe from just beyond the chokepoint), so that he could participate in Banhammer's Permanent Symposium on Truth and Beauty?

This was merely a set of statements to go with this http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0091.html in panels 4 and 5. Since Jami's art has changed quite abit over the life of the comic you can sorta see a similar features in the last panel of http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0097.html

This would explain his displeasure with the warfare as well along with his unit doing the damage they did put the lasting impression on Sizemore. Allies can be formed and switched at anytime during their turns and it is very possible. Remember the alliance has multiple factions all working together so who says that can not also happen.

Like I said I was Thinking Outside The Box on that one.

[AgentPaper]

That is not Sizemore. A few reasons:

1: It doesn't look like him. This is up for debate, though, and even if it wasn't him, it would be possible he was there without being shown here. Still, I don't see the resemblance besides a few common characteristics. It could be his dad, or brother, or some other relative, but the features are slightly different from all other times we've seen him, in important ways.

2: The person in the picture has armor in the same style as the other soldiers we see in the very same page. That, combined with the text speaking about how the soldiers were clerks, makes it pretty certain that the soldier is an example of said "soldier-clerks". Still debatable, but only marginally.

3: Here's my trump card. If a caster like Sizemore, even if just a dirtamancer, was in FAQ, Jillian would almost certainly have known. Which she does not, seeing as she thinks, "only Stanley and I know where it is."

[Lamech]

I'm going to make a bunch of conclusions and guesses...
1)The predictamancer betrayed FAQ; I assume that Banhammer was not told about the dwagons from the frantic nature of the message. Do to the predictamancers lack of mistakes otherwise, this must have been a betrayal.
1a) (Assuming 3 is right) The predictamancer will show up again, she/he probably wouldn't have betrayed Banhammer just to get him/herself killed.

2) I think that Banhammer was told his kingdom was doomed as an attempt to manipulate Banhammer, and a self-fufilling prophecy. Probably to make banhammer give up on defense. Archers and blastity spell probably could have stopped the dwagons. This klog implies the coalition air-force is stronger than the dwagons, and the coalition air was almost wiped out. Of course, maybe the predictamancer was asked a direct question and had to answer it, or wanted some other manipulation.

3) Wanda is probably not the predictamancer. While it would answer many questions, I think it would create bigger problems. Why hasn't Wanda used her predictamancy at all? She used thinkamancy on Jillian, so if she had the same level of predictamancy she should have used that as well. Although its possible she developed an extreme hatred of it, so it is a possiblity. Or her talent level was mearly enough to predict for three hex's at high difficulty.

4) Jack isn't going to betray Stanley, out of love for Jillian. That would a) be out of left field since we had minimal warning, and b) Jillian didn't stay anywhere near Jack, but if she argued she probably could have stayed in the kingdom. He might want to kidnap/mind-control her or extract revenge, but I doubt he will suddenly betray Stanley. Best case senario for Jillian he ditches and viels himself and Jillian.

P.S. I would rate this in desending order of certainty 4,1,3,2. Feel free to pick them apart.

[CaptC]

3: Here's my trump card. If a caster like Sizemore, even if just a dirtamancer, was in FAQ, Jillian would almost certainly have known. Which she does not, seeing as she thinks, "only Stanley and I know where it is."

The very page you reference defeats this point. Obviously Jillian is not speaking exactly, but is referring to Stanley in a larger sense, as in "Lord Stanley's side knows where it is."

Because it seems likely Wanda is also aware of Faq's location.

I agree with your other points, though. Sizemore wasn't in Faq. My (non-story) related reason is simply this: If that's a picture of Sizemore, the picture and the text have no possible relationship with each other. And I don't believe the author's would do that. If they did, it's too much like a trick intended to obfuscate, and I believe them when they say they aren't looking to write the story that way.

[Aquillion]

I don't understand why people are still looking for these long convoluted stories to how Faq fell. It's not like there's anything complicated there... Ansom was surprised it had lasted as well as it did. Casters are simply not a perfect defense.

Stanley had a good Lookamancer under his command. That's it. That's all there is to it. One day she looked out the (proverbial) window and saw a kingdom that would be easy to take, so he took it.

Could there be more to the story? Sure. But I don't see where people are acting like it's the lynchpin of the plot or some vital necessary thing that will explain everyone's motivations and radically change how we view every character. We don't need any plot twists like that; all the characters have been adequately explained already.

If the details of the fall of Faq are gone into, I doubt they will be more than a few brief panels (probably from Wanda's point of view.) But I just don't see it as very important, certainly not worth this much argument.

I agree with your other points, though. Sizemore wasn't in Faq. My (non-story) related reason is simply this: If that's a picture of Sizemore, the picture and the text have no possible relationship with each other. And I don't believe the author's would do that. If they did, it's too much like a trick intended to obfuscate, and I believe them when they say they aren't looking to write the story that way.

To be fair, though (while I don't think that that's Sizemore) they did do that with Wanda at one point. Granted it was immediately conformed explicitly on the next page.