Erfworld 119, page 107

[ishnar]

Funny you should say that... I just last week started studying Theory of Communication and Philosophy of Language (just a coincidence that I'm doing those simultaneously). One fundamental idea present in both is that there is no universal 'true' language. We all speak our own personal language at all times. Understanding comes from the overlaps of personal languages.

Even the standards of English spelling and grammar that we (native speakers) were all taught in school were reverse engineered from written texts (predominantly Shakespeare, from my understanding).

True as far as it goes, however.

If you decide that "for you" red is the color of grass and that bottom light on a traffic light, then you are creating needless opportunities for mis-communication. Understanding, comes from conforming to a common standard, not overlaps. If understanding came from overlaps of personal language, then children would have to be born already speaking language, otherwise they wouldn't have anything to overlap with.

There is no one true language because living languages are constantly changing. But they don't usually change by one person asserting his personal definition of a word. They change by one small group using a word and a new fad is created, then another group conforming, then more and more groups conform until the groups have grown enough in size that conforming is no longer seen a fad, but a standard. Same with Jargon, except the words are not seen as slang, so they are adopted quicker if a need is present.

[surtt]

The former was established during Jillian's account by the flashback panel of Wanda... mmmm.... where was I... oh, yeah, the theory about the Faq raid being the same as the mission Stanley was on when Saline got croaked. That's pure guesswork, as far as I can tell -- if anything, the scene in the flashback panel of that mission suggests that the target was not Faq -- the "Smurf Village" doesn't look anything like the "oriental" Faq city we saw.

We don't even know for sure Stanly had anything to do with Faq. Jillian admits she is not certain, her only real evidence is Wanda turning up in GK.

[Kish]

But we do know that Gobwin Knob does also have Jack. Two casters from Faq popping up in the same place after it falls, apparently to dwagons? More of a stretch to call that a coincidence than just one caster.

[Snow]

I think Wanda was the one who betrayed FAQ.

Why?

She's (one of?) the last members of the Croatan tribe, not the FAQ tribe. Given she was one of the members of FAQ's officers, I can only assume FAQ had a militaristic history that subsumed Croata and forced her to work for them. So when Stanley presented an opportunity, she took it.

By saying that you made me realized Sizemore is from the plaid tribe as Stanley. And sizemore was already in FAQ.

[SteveMB]

By saying that you made me realized Sizemore is from the plaid tribe as Stanley. And sizemore was already in FAQ.

No, he wasn't -- he was popped during the reign of King Saline IV and inherited by Stanley when he took over.

[surtt]

But we do know that Gobwin Knob does also have Jack. Two casters from Faq popping up in the same place after it falls, apparently to dwagons? More of a stretch to call that a coincidence than just one caster.

I didn't say it's not likely that Stanly was the one, I just said it is not certain.
Maybe whoever had the hammer before Stanly raided Faq and carried off the casters.

[fendrin]

The former was established during Jillian's account by the flashback panel of Wanda... mmmm.... where was I... oh, yeah, the theory about the Faq raid being the same as the mission Stanley was on when Saline got croaked. That's pure guesswork, as far as I can tell -- if anything, the scene in the flashback panel of that mission suggests that the target was not Faq -- the "Smurf Village" doesn't look anything like the "oriental" Faq city we saw.

We also see many other 'visions' in that sequence. Some are events from the past, some are potential future events. Really, we cannot presume that any of those images have any basis in reality. Indeed, they could even be Parson's mental images, not Sizemore's... making them based exclusively off of the words being said and Parson's limited knowledge of the subject matter.

I shouldn't have said that it was 'likely', I guess I just got carried away with the symmetry ('You croak my King and I'll croak yours').

If understanding came from overlaps of personal language, then children would have to be born already speaking language, otherwise they wouldn't have anything to overlap with.

Not so; as children learn their first words, they are forming their personal language. The overlap between their personal language and any given adult's personal language will be shaky at best (one baby I know called anyone she cared about 'Mama' for about two weeks, before also learning 'Dada'), but the human brain is rather adept at using context to shape one's understanding of words, even if those words are not being used in a way that is congruent with the interpreters own personal language.

This is getting quite a bit beyond the scope of this thread, though, so we should probably either make a new thread or just drop the discussion.

[The Old Hack]

That's pure guesswork, as far as I can tell -- if anything, the scene in the flashback panel of that mission suggests that the target was not Faq -- the "Smurf Village" doesn't look anything like the "oriental" Faq city we saw.

As an aside, if I were an Overlord or Ruler in Erf, I would neither rest nor relent until every smurf village in existence had been razed to the ground, all life in them extinguished, and the ruins sown with salt.

[dr pepper]

Instead of "compels" you could use "impels", "influences". "suggests", "nudges".

[dr pepper]

As an aside, if I were an Overlord or Ruler in Erf, I would neither rest nor relent until every smurf village in existence had been razed to the ground, all life in them extinguished, and the ruins sown with salt.

Please don't. You'd be creating a bunch of salt licks, which attract my little ponies. And those in turn, attract princess sparkles's, which usually have portable mini karaoke machines. Trust me, smrufs are important to the overall ecological balance.

[The Old Hack]

Please don't. You'd be creating a bunch of salt licks, which attract my little ponies. And those in turn, attract princess sparkles's, which usually have portable mini karaoke machines. Trust me, smrufs are important to the overall ecological balance.

*screams, disbands all his units and flees in blind panic*

[DarkNewton]

I really like the concepts being kicked around here about Wanda being a predictamancer, but I think there would be some major gaps that would prevent it.

Hiding it from Stanley. He's the boss there has to be some ability for him to inventory what resources he has.

Hiding it from Ansom. If she was the predictamancer, Jillian would know, and would have almost /had/ to have given Ansom some clue that his enemy had a predictamancer on their side, and his strategy would have had to account for taking that unit out, and quick.

Hiding it from Parson. He was given a list of Gobwin Knob forces, which specifically stated Croakamancer.

Now all of these really resolve down to a single point, which is namely warlords can see unit's stats/classes, I would think that 'type of caster' would be apparent but again, simply 'caster' may be all it presents. Now if it didn't present discipline, it would further seem to lean towards the mindset that you simply choose to pop a caster and then you need to direct them to specialize in something. Which further then allows for wanda to conceal her predictamancer nature from stanley, and to have switched disciplines, take up her preferred discipline of croakmancy, and dabble in the other forms of magic.

You know, that might be exactly why the magic kingdoms exist, you pump your caster off to a turnbased package and they come back all disciplined like. Magic Bootcamp!

[SteveMB]

Please don't. You'd be creating a bunch of salt licks, which attract my little ponies.

And then you have a whole new war starting....

[Tahnru]

I just wanted to toss my two cents in (all of these subject to my overlooking something):

1. Wanda, Jack, and Jillian are the only Erfworlders to have eyes with distinct corneas and scleras. I've taken this to strongly indicate shared heritage.

2. Wanda can manage a wide range of magics outside of Croakamancy - she's just uninterested in anything else.

So far, everything points to Wanda being the Predictamancer of FAQ, with nothing to detract from that.

[fendrin]

Now all of these really resolve down to a single point, which is namely warlords can see unit's stats/classes, I would think that 'type of caster' would be apparent but again, simply 'caster' may be all it presents.

Hmm.... considering we know that there is a method for a unit to go from Piker to arlord, Warlord to Heir Designate, and of course Heir Designate to Overlord, it's really not that far of a stretch to imagine there being a spell or or other method for casters to change their specialty.

Think about it... if the Magic Kingdom can create a spell that searches across all of creation for an individual meeting certain parameters and teleports said individual to the caster, what can't they do?

[Justyn]

Hmm.... considering we know that there is a method for a unit to go from Piker to arlord, Warlord to Heir Designate, and of course Heir Designate to Overlord, it's really not that far of a stretch to imagine there being a spell or or other method for casters to change their specialty.

Think about it... if the Magic Kingdom can create a spell that searches across all of creation for an individual meeting certain parameters and teleports said individual to the caster, what can't they do?

Invent indoor plumbing and cistern toilets?

[Lamech]

I really like the concepts being kicked around here about Wanda being a predictamancer, but I think there would be some major gaps that would prevent it.

Hiding it from Stanley. He's the boss there has to be some ability for him to inventory what resources he has.

Hiding it from Ansom. If she was the predictamancer, Jillian would know, and would have almost /had/ to have given Ansom some clue that his enemy had a predictamancer on their side, and his strategy would have had to account for taking that unit out, and quick.

Hiding it from Parson. He was given a list of Gobwin Knob forces, which specifically stated Croakamancer.

Now all of these really resolve down to a single point, which is namely warlords can see unit's stats/classes, I would think that 'type of caster' would be apparent but again, simply 'caster' may be all it presents. Now if it didn't present discipline, it would further seem to lean towards the mindset that you simply choose to pop a caster and then you need to direct them to specialize in something. Which further then allows for wanda to conceal her predictamancer nature from stanley, and to have switched disciplines, take up her preferred discipline of croakmancy, and dabble in the other forms of magic.

You know, that might be exactly why the magic kingdoms exist, you pump your caster off to a turnbased package and they come back all disciplined like. Magic Bootcamp!

To respond to hiding it from varying people
Stanley: He knew Wanda was good at many differant types of magic, he may have very well have had her run some predictions, when he cared about the war.
Ansom: No, Wanda being the predictamancer wouldn't have changed things. Jillian obviously hid the fact Wanda has access to thinkamancy, otherwise Jillian would be assumed to be a enemy simply due to mind control or suggestion spells.
Parson: Hmm... I guess this means Wanda is a croakamancer. But that doesn't say anything about her other talents. She is a talented thinkamancer (maggie says so), and she cast a powerful findamancy spell, but the box didn't list that. Besides Banhammer still could have had her use her thinkamancy, and possibly predictamancy talents in place of her croakamancy ablities. Still I guess she must just be really good at croakamancy.

[Zolem]

Invent indoor plumbing and cistern toilets?

Dirtomancer: Huh, never thoguht of that.

Also, I've fielded that Wanda was a traitor to Banhammer even before the 'she's the predicatamancer' thing came along, due to being the last of her tribe, so she was probably captured. Having low loyalty and serving a Royal who had no use for Croakamancers and so forced her to use other magic, she found a way to contact Stanly and set up an invasion plan. On the turn he was to invade, she murdered the Predictamancer so taht there would be no forwarning, enablign Stanly to surprise and overwhelm FAQ and take the 2 surviving casters, Wanda and Jack. Wanda got to do what she loves and so has high loyalty to Stanly.

Those who keep saying Siezemore is from FAQ are parently not reading the same story, as it specificly states in the charecter bios that he is of the same tribe as Stanly, AND it is stated in the story that he was popped under the rule of Saline IV, former monarch of GK.

[fehler]

Damn, right. That Stupid Meal would have listed her as a Predictamancer, rather then Croakamancer, if it was true. So much for silly theories.

Unless that gets retconned. I remeber some text being changed from "lookamancer" to "foolamancer" in the past, when describing what was needed for a veil.

[Justyn]

Unless that gets retconned. I remeber some text being changed from "lookamancer" to "foolamancer" in the past, when describing what was needed for a veil.

Because Rob accidentally wrote "Lookamancer" where he should have written "Foolamancer"; the change was just correcting the mistake.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Damn, right. That Stupid Meal would have listed her as a Predictamancer, rather then Croakamancer, if it was true. So much for silly theories.

Well... assuming for the moment that Wanda isn't the Predictamancer, what happened to him/her?

Wanda could have killed the Predictamancer before Stanley's attack, allowing for him to gain the element of surprise.

Wanda could have distracted the Predictamancer instead... but then why didn't Stanley capture the Predictamancer?

Thoughts?

[Wort]

I didn't say it's not likely that Stanly was the one, I just said it is not certain.
Maybe whoever had the hammer before Stanly raided Faq and carried off the casters.

It's certainly not definitive, but this indicates that Stanley discovered the Arkenhammer and tamed dwagons:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0087.html

It's possible that someone else possessed the A'hammer before Stanley, but I personally doubt it.

Best,
Wort

[SteveMB]

Those who keep saying Siezemore is from FAQ are parently not reading the same story, as it specificly states in the charecter bios that he is of the same tribe as Stanly, AND it is stated in the story that he was popped under the rule of Saline IV, former monarch of GK.

The frame where Jillian describes Faq's troops as "more like clerks" depicts a balding nebbishy big-nosed guy. Apparently some readers got the impression that he's supposed to be Sizemore -- I can see a resemblance, but it's rather superficial.

[ReccaSquirrel]

Simple explanation for how Stanley found FAQ.

FAQ had mercenaries.
Stanley has a croakamancer.

I'm fairly certain we have seen no indication that a uncroaked unit can't reveal information about where it came from.

[fendrin]

Simple explanation for how Stanley found FAQ.

FAQ had mercenaries.
Stanley has a croakamancer.

I'm fairly certain we have seen no indication that a uncroaked unit can't reveal information about where it came from.

Stanley got his croakamancer from Faq, so he couldn't have used said croakamancer to find Faq.

[multilis]

...So far, everything points to Wanda being the Predictamancer of FAQ, with nothing to detract from that.

That last part is debatable. She is called croakomancer, never predictomancer so there is a leap of sorts.

There so far has been nothing to suggest FAQ was limited in number of casters to not have a predictomancer as well, story could go either way.

[AgentPaper]

Seeing as how Wanda could cast a findamancy spell, along with many, many others, It doesn't seem like the "class name" (ie: Crocamancer, Thinkamancer, Dirtamancer, etc) really means anything mechanically, but is just what that caster tends to do the most. Casters with multiple talents are probably pretty rare, Wanda being a rather rare case of rare, with lots of talent in many schools.

[Zolem]

Well... assuming for the moment that Wanda isn't the Predictamancer, what happened to him/her?

Wanda could have killed the Predictamancer before Stanley's attack, allowing for him to gain the element of surprise.

Wanda could have distracted the Predictamancer instead... but then why didn't Stanley capture the Predictamancer?

Thoughts?

I have already stated that I think Wanda just killed the Predicatamancer so taht surprise would be on Stanly's side. It cost him a potential battle spoil, but got him resources fromt eh cities, potential future retreat, and two casters, one of whom is highly loyal to him.

[DarkNewton]

Well... assuming for the moment that Wanda isn't the Predictamancer, what happened to him/her?

Wanda could have killed the Predictamancer before Stanley's attack, allowing for him to gain the element of surprise.

Wanda could have distracted the Predictamancer instead... but then why didn't Stanley capture the Predictamancer?

Thoughts?

Well perhaps that while she was a croakamancer, being as they needed a predictamancer more then a croakamancer, Banhammer forced her to work as a predictamancer. And as we've seen slight examples of while having decent amounts of raw skill at other forms of magic, her predictions while being mostly accurate, weren't exactly what was intended (much like we've seen with her other non-primary discipline casts). So perhaps while she was able to pull some general details about future events, like simple questions, "What cities need to veiled today" and "How do I die" is allot easier to answer then say questions like "How can I stop my kingdom from being destroyed" as the answer to that question often heavily depends allot on overlooked details.

You know, it could also be said that this situation was sort of alluded too during Jillian's post-interrogation conversation, when she said something along the lines 'oh I know how you hate to do that'

[tomaO2]

Source?

Here is the quote. "There are some webcomics that want to fool the reader, and put a high price on unguessable twists; we actually just want the story we're telling to be understood."

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...49&postcount=5

Satisfied? Take this quote to heart. It's the key to figuring out how things will end.

Not really, there is enough supporting (though no absolute) evidence that a significant of people in this thread are convinced. That makes it a believable reveal, not a huge twist out of left field with no precedent.

By that standard, 9/11 Truth MUST be real. Sheesh. Just because a bunch of people are creating the most fantastical explanations doesn't mean that it's right or even common. It just means your really spending to much time with your conspiracy theories. You have no supporting evidence. Only fellow posters patting you on the back saying, "wow that's a neat idea, I hope that's the reason". You make up things that are against what evidence we DO have. Your whole theory lies in Wanda being able to change from being a Predicamancer to a Croakamancer. Where is the evidence for such an outrageous claim?

Yes, Wanda can certainly handle a wide variety of magics but FAQ needed a specialised unit, not an amateur. Not one mistake can be allowed and we have certainly seen Wanda make mistakes outside of her specialty. It's not enough. Nowhere NEAR enough.

Keep it simple, keep it with what's knowable. The plot will be shaped by the details that have already been revealed. Not wild flights of imagination.

Pure conjecture. We do not know when Misty joined the GK team or where she originated from (as far as we know she was captured from Faq, but it is equally likely that she was popped in GK, or captured from some other city whether before or after the fall of Faq).

That's like the pot calling the stainless steel kettle out for having a smudge on it. You accuse ME of conjecture? Your like the little Beckler fan that cannot believe that Beckler is actually Chaotic Evil because you really like the guy.

*sighs* It's the simplest explanation. The author LIKES simple explanations. There was no mention of any other casters at FAQ and we know that this war has been going on for a short time. By that standard, perhaps all the casters except Sizemore are captured. Now your asking, where were they taken from? Do the authors really want to get into all of this when they can just simply state that Misty and Maggie were from Gobwin Kwob? Besides, even if they were captured it would have had to have been before Stanly's quest for the Arkentools because after that, as Wanda said, he has lost every single battle.

Actually, we don't know how many casters died in the Battle for Faq, could have been 0, could have been 100, could have been anywhere in between or beyond. Presuming Wanda is not the Predictamancer, we have no evidence whether the predictamancer was croaked or not.

It even could have been 10 BILLION but was probably 1 at most. Again, simplest explanation. There have been exactly 3 casters referred to by Jillian. Casters are rare. There isn't going to be 100 or even 10, that's just silly.

Irrelevant. We know that Wanda was brought back from Faq, and that the Faq mission was likely the mission that Stanley took Sizemore (to dig some tunnels, or just to increase the odds of seeing through the veil?) and 'a number of other casters'

It's completely relevant. It helps show the way Erfworld's history is laying itself out. First, Stanley attacked FAQ, then he goes of with all the casters except, possibly, the predictomancer. Second, King Saline IV and the Predictomancer are assassinated and finally Stanley begins attacking other nations and eventually begins his quest for the Arkentools. Things go downhill for him at this point. As Wanda stated. After he bagan the quest for the Arkentools he has not won a single battle.

The 'a number of casters' were Sizemore's words, a the link I provided above. Where are you getting the 3 from? I think you have made a few faulty conclusions.

I know they were Sizemore's words. What exactly are you trying to prove by linking the very page I was referencing? If that's some sort of gotya attempt, it was sadly lacking and pointless. I base myself on what is known. On the evidence. If I am wrong, it's because what was written has led me down the wrong path.

Fault lies when a person's wishes are placed higher then what the evidence states. An example of me doing that was when I thought Parson had placed himself directly in the path of return of Jillian. I found that error and corrected it. Myself. Can you change your mind or are you steeped in your own dogma to try and grow?

I don't appreciate repeating myself. You obviously never read my previous post a few pages back that talked more detail on this thought. I was referring to this statement to reinforce that the coup had to have taken place after FAQ was taken. Three, refers to Misty, Maggie and Sizemore. They are the only casters that could have been available if it was before FAQ was destroyed. "A number," means not all. So one would have had to be left behind. Which makes 2, which would be refered to as a "couple" or "most" but Sizemore said, "a number". This very strongly implies that it was more then two. In other words, it implies that it took place after FAQ.

Actually, it might. We don't know. Maybe caster specialization is purely a matter of skill and choice, much the way that a musician will often specialize in one particular instrument, but could later choose to switch to another instrument.

Your so caught up in this insane idea that people can change their professions that you have no idea how completely foreign it would be to Erfworld. Did Stanly choose to be a pikeman? No, because there Is. No. Choice. Even Parson cannot "choose" what he wants to be. He will never be anything but a warlord. Ever. Even if he's sent out as infantry, he's still a warlord. You are popped in cities and whatever your designation is, that is what you are for the rest of your life. Period. The only exception to this rule is when your promoted. So Stanly can be promoted to a Warlord or even an Overlord but even then that's not his choice. That is the choice of the city's king, the ONLY unit type that appears to truly have free choice.

Yes, this has been discussed quite a bit in this thread. However, it is sketchy at best to think that the fall of Saline IV and the fall of banhammer are completely unrelated, and really, between Stanley and Wanda, which one seems more like a devious master planner?

So in your mind, Wanda somehow set up the situation where she destroys FAQ, puts Stanley on the throne and then makes sure that her new kingdom is completely destroyed by making enemies along the entire Western hemisphere? That would make her even dumber than Stanley in the master planning department. There is a relation here between FAQ and Saline but that's Stanly, not Wanda.

I also have a suspicion that the real player in all this is the Arkenhammer but I'd rather not advance any theories on that until we have more proof that the Aakenhammer is inteligent, other then the fact that his profile lists him as having "Bad taste in friends". The idea that it would set up this entire thing to get Stanley in charge seems more likely to me then am Erfworld subordinate actually plotting against a ruler that has been so good to him. How could he get past the Duty inhibitions otherwise?