122 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 110

[teratorn]

Reasons for thinking Stanley will go to GK? Parson asked for him, and presumably needs him to win the fight at the walls or in the air. Plus it's cool to think Jack will get Stanley to GK against his will.

Parson needs him not to die, and needs him against the archons.

[Richbin]

The art is far more than fine.
The details and possibilities of multiple interpretations leave precisely the right amount of suspense.
Unlike realistic photographs which can be pored over and factually interpreted, artists have the ability to represent 'reality' - it happens too fast for us to ponder over the details, and have us trying to remember what we think we saw.
Your art is awesome, Jami.

[Another_Poet]

If you mean frame 10, if you look closely you'll see that it's one of the three KISS units Stanley brought with him.

Thanks - I didn't remember they were with him!

[shamelessmerc]

Certainly not a god. But I am kind of amazed at how much the debate continues. Actually, I'm amazed at how much stuff gets debated. Sometimes I wonder if I'm drawing things clearly enough. *shrug*

Someone else refered to you as god, and I liked it, and it it is appropriate in the circumstances (ie a universe in which only you know the fundamental rules, the complete and accurate history and the ultimate destiny) for the purposes of discussion you fit the least contraversial definition of god.

Note I am using the most laid back version of the Abramic god, the god whose name is I Am.

Although Minerva/Athena would do as well, you are offering wisdom and riddling hints.

[shamelessmerc]

Never underestimate the power of the human mind to believe what it wants to believe.

New Favorite Quote

[Lamech]

Hmm... I haven't mentioned this yet. I really liked panel 9, really good job there. (Not that the other panels are bad, I just think 9 is outstanding.) I'm glad that the artwork isn't suffering with the increased speed.

[Richbin]

My heart is in total agreement with yours - Panel #9 is simply gob-smackingly awesome. Closely followed by panel #12... Jack is... eeeeeeevil.

[Snow]

Ok the author stated clearly they haven't u-turn, and that they have units in front and behind.

So what everyone is looking as an spell, could be an spell, and spell to unveil the units that were ambush them. It was never stated that Transilvyto didn't brought a foolamancer with the new warlords.

[Richbin]

True, but as they expressed concern that he might have a Foolamancer with him (without knowing this in advance), had they had a foolamancer who might have dispelled veils, this would have been mentionned, I am sure.

Interesting thought though - If a Foolamancer can make illusions and 'veil' things that are not there, might he also not be able to bring things into sharper focus?

[Zeku]

It's not a complement, just another reference to the tv trope wiki.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WordOfGod

I say that only to reassure you that your fans have not gone completely off the deep end.

[BarGamer]

Jami, if you drew it any clearer, the speculators would die of starvation. Do you REALLY want the deaths of forum-goers on your conscience, or are you also in the possession of a Sword of Ruthlessness? *So totally kidding.*

Lots of people argue about the Word of God, even AFTER religious experiences. We're human. We just love to argue.

[glenstorm74]

I'm more interested in Transylvito battle tactics here. Why does each warlord have a swarm of bats around them? Why bother with this "outflanking" maneuver? Do they even have a chance to kill Stanley?

First, there are special rules surrounding Transylvito bats. We can see here that they can be picked up and carried like items! Next, Vinnie says that he is only packin' eight bats. That suggests that they are also used as some form of weapon. Furthermore, they seem to provide more information than a standard scout, giving the warlord the ability to see through there eyes as evidenced here. Finally, bats can be used defensively as seen here.

I believe with warlords on both sides directing the battle that both sides will have a tough time killing any major players. We know with a warlord the fight can be directed. We also know that commanded flying stacks may selectively engage ground units. Now, Jillian nearly got herself killed because of poor commanding here. She could have had her units defend her rather than go full offense.

Thus, I'm guessing the bats are a favored Transylvito battle tactic. If all of them attempt to kill Stanely, and Stanely doesn't command his stack well, then it might be the Tool's end.

[Lamech]

I'm more interested in Transylvito battle tactics here. Why does each warlord have a swarm of bats around them? Why bother with this "outflanking" maneuver? Do they even have a chance to kill Stanley?

First, there are special rules surrounding Transylvito bats. We can see here that they can be picked up and carried like items! Next, Vinnie says that he is only packin' eight bats. That suggests that they are also used as some form of weapon. Furthermore, they seem to provide more information than a standard scout, giving the warlord the ability to see through there eyes as evidenced here. Finally, bats can be used defensively as seen here.

I believe with warlords on both sides directing the battle that both sides will have a tough time killing any major players. We know with a warlord the fight can be directed. We also know that commanded flying stacks may selectively engage ground units. Now, Jillian nearly got herself killed because of poor commanding here. She could have had her units defend her rather than go full offense.

Thus, I'm guessing the bats are a favored Transylvito battle tactic. If all of them attempt to kill Stanely, and Stanely doesn't command his stack well, then it might be the Tool's end.

Here is what I am guessing on the bats, they are to distract the dwagons, and let the warlords make it to Stanley with out getting croaked. If the warlords just tried to run right for Stanley, they would have to dodge 2+ attacks each, which would be suicide. Dwagons can one hit powerful warlords as shown here, and that dwagon didn't even have the full stack bonus, let alone the chief warlord bonus, Stanley's direct bonus, and the artifact bonus. I think they intend to use the bats, like Vinny wanted here, except instead of running to saftey, they are running to Stanley. They are hoping that enough warlords will get to Stanley, to overwhelm and croak him.

I'm betting they are not even going to bother killing dwagons, just go all out against Stanley; it is their only hope.

[Richbin]

Don't forget that the KISS will and can direct the dwagons as well, so the tool does not have to be the only one not to notice something amiss.
PLUS, there ios the TOOL.
I would loev to see the hammer transform bats into.... cashews?

[Bongos]

It's looks like a Y shaped inerstection with Stanley turning left coming from the bottom and and the Transylvito forces at the top ends of the Y.

That is why the dwagons are entering coming in from the bottom of panel 11 and you can see the valley bending away on the lower right corner of that panel.

[Geno9999]

I would loev to see the hammer transform bats into.... cashews?

I think it would be walnuts. Also, my question 'bout Stanley, is he attacking? 'cause it seems like it. Too bad Transvito doesn't have Archons.

[The Old Hack]

I think that this is one of the hardest-hitting pages yet. First, we have Stanley showing a more human side, then he suddenly shows doubt in his own vision of himself as the chosen of the Titans -- both of these came out of the blue and, frankly speaking, shocked me. (Yes. Stanley admitting to the Foolamancer that they will die if he does not pull himself together -- that is a clear admission of doubt to my mind, and a far more direct one than Ansom has ever displayed.)

Why, I wonder? What has changed? Well, most obviously: he is no longer in the position of an Overlord within the walls of his all but impregnable city. Rather, he is in the field, surviving from moment to moment, much like the early days of his life as first Piker and then Warlord. More, he is speaking to one who remembers that time -- or would if he were sane -- and for all we know, they might have had an at least professional relationship together from that time. With the threat of death growing ever more imminent to Stanley and realising that screaming and shaking the Foolamancer will have no effect -- and what has he done since becoming Overlord, save screaming orders at people and shaking them? -- doubt may find fertile soil to grow in.

Stanley has long been the one Erfworld character that puzzled me the most. He had so few points to connect with, showed an all but sociopathic lack of care for the consequences of his actions; he seemed almost too one-dimensional compared to the rest of the cast of the story. Perhaps here we are getting some hints of what he was before he reached that state and a glimmer of what he has been hiding. Has Stanley the Tool been an enormous act to conceal his own insecurity, perhaps even from himself? It would hardly be a unique case if so.

Lastly, an aside related to all the speculation about the Foolamancer's actions: I note that Parson's last instruction to him was that he should try to convince Stanley to return to Gobwin Knob. Given that we are dealing with a master Foolamancer here, the term 'convince' suddenly takes on far more meaning than mere persuasion. And if Jack has decided that this is an order that should be obeyed... well.

[tomaO2]

As usual, the whole thing seems crystal clear to me and it's not what seems to be the majority take. At least this particular series of postulates should be proven or disproved in a relatively short time, perhaps within a month. So I feel no need to argue them. I just want it stated for the record that I believe in these ideas, either I start building cred that I can actually guess where things are going or I prove I can't.

Anyway:

-The Foolmancer has done nothing so far except point out a real threat. No illusions on Stanley, no tricks to get back to Gobwin Knob. It would not work anyway unless he could trick Stanley every hex back in the way. The only way to get Stanley to go back is to use words to convince him. Magic alone is just not even close to being enough. It's just a preposterous theory to me.

-Assuming all those dots are warlords, I'm not positive on that but it's the most likely interpretation. There are 12 Warlords. Vinny, the Ten that were originally ordered to go and the Chief, (EDIT plus Jillian for 13 but not really counting her. I did this badly /EDIT) who was a last minute addition due to Charlie backing out. For whatever reason, it wasn't made clear that there were 11 total sent by the Don but if you further assume that this isn't an illusion (and I do) then that's the most sensible explanation.

-You can only see enemy units that are in the same hex that you're in. Hexes are really big. There must also be ambush rules for them, perhaps there are even search rules when going after command units who do not have to fight back. I have long wondered if Parson could have hidden the damaged units in the forrest in the doughnut section itself (as opposed to the hole or somewhere nearby). The bat comes in, from high above, sees the "guard" dwagons, while the rest of the attack force are lying low under the trees and are not spotted in the very brief time that the bat can look around.

- As the passage between Stanley and Jack makes clear, the foolmancer discussion that the Chief got upset about has nothing to do with the ambush. Though I do think there is a good chance that Jack's abilities will come into play as they punch through, their main problem comes after as Stanley stated.

Both he and the "good" guys KNOW they don't have enough to keep Stanley penned up, that was guaranteed when Charlie pulled out. They had to change their plains. What they now want to do is bleed Stanly here and then finish him off next turn because they KNOW that FAQ is too far for stanley to get to and... create(?) this turn. When Vinny said there are 300 chances to mess it up he's talking about the end of the veil turn. You cannot veil your units effectively until the end of the turn. That's how it was explained during the doghnut fiasco and there is no reason to change that assumption.

The turn ends, Jack veils and now the "good" guys try to find and finish Stanley off. It would be simple if only Stanly didn't have a Foolmancer...

-If the Jack is planning on getting Stanley to turn back it will be after this fight.



Again, I think many people are reading way too much into things. Too many complicated ideas being tossed around. Besides, howcan the authors resist a good fight sequence? I want to see that hammer crack some thunder.

Good page overall. I'm really liking the Foolmancer. The play on the famous phrase "the media IS the message" made me happy. I loved the action shots where Stanley first realizes he is ambushed and then when he decides to punch through. I think I like pannel 9 a bit better then 12 though, and both would be even better if Stanley was showing a bit less.

Speaking of Stanley, sensitive Stanley has no place in my world view. It's almost enough to make me actually believe that there is a chance that he really WAS under a suggestion spell from Wanda before. Why are all his sensitive moments coming AFTER Wanda's mind went down? I also am shocked I am the first person that has suggested this as a type of proof that Stanley isn't as bad as we have assumed him to be. I don't even agree with this theory. I guess I feel this is much more out of character for Stanley then the rest of you do.



EDIT: I didn't read every page, I didn't even know that the authors already tried to dismiss the illusion theory... and people still cling to it? <tisks> Jami, for what it's worth, this page was very clear to me. I thought the fish bowl look worked rather well personally. Although, if there are indeed 12 Transylvito warlords (the ten, Vinny and Borgata, EDIT: plus Jillian for 13, I suppose /EDIT), you could have made sure to have them all present in pannel 2, page 104. My guess is that you did and one was covered up by the text box. Would that be correct? Also, if some but not all of the unnamed warlords have to die, make sure Dark Mario is not one of them please. He just looks awsome.

I also liked the touch with Jack and the eye reverting to normal size as he got sane. Told me instantly that he was better...ish. Did he really used to have have those tiny eyes like Parson saw through his glasses though? I was under the impression that FAQ units had the 2 separate colors as a racial trait.

[cdrcjsn]

Ok the author stated clearly they haven't u-turn, and that they have units in front and behind.

The author stated "It's actually my bad attempt at a fish eye perspective. They're flying in a valley with Transylvitians in front and behind."

Nothing about direction of flight.
Transylvitians on both sides yes, but are they both real?

[Chadwick]

Transylvitians on both sides yes, but are they both real?

My guess is yes they are real, the numbers of both sides suggests the proper troop strength.

[DariusAPB]

Well hang on, what would happen if the overload is captured not croaked?

[Subtext]

@tomaO2:

Actually, you're not the first person to think that Stanley is not as bad as most people here think...

Right now I have absolutely no idea if one group of warlords is illusionary or not...maybe I prefer not if only because it wouldn't really make sense for Jack to create Transylvito illusions in the back (!) except he's betraying Stanley what I don't believe .

That would imply that the Vampires try a flanking strategy on the dragons what I don't really believe too. If you see a big lot of death coming towards you, you wouldn't really want to split troops and even try flanking...
One essential part of flanking is to either completely surround the enemy or to leave only one direction to retreat. In aerial combat you have even MORE directions to retreat to!
You also have to be able to hold against the first attack wave of the enemy (or even more, depending on how good your timing and coordination is). And I don't think six Transylvitian Warlords could do that against Stanley + Dragons + Arkenhammer....

I have no idea...

...but I like that :D

[Thydron]

We know from Parson's dragon attack on the siege that the attacker can choose to withdraw from a battle, and from Vinny's suggestions in the donut that attackers can go through a hex without having to kill all enemy units in the hex, so I'm guessing the Warlords have split up ahead & behind Stanley so that it will be harder for him to do either of those things.
Plus it'll be a more interesting fight to watch :P

[Subtext]

Hm...you think so?

I'd prefer the image of 24 dragons and 12 warlord smashing into each other head first...:D

[shamelessmerc]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][COLOR="Indigo"]
-Assuming all those dots are warlords, I'm not positive on that but it's the most likely interpretation. There are 12 Warlords. Vinny, Jillian, the Ten that were originally ordered to go and the Chief, who was a last minute addition due to Charlie backing out. .

OK, people have raised this again and again and I'm taking issue!

In panel 10 there are:

6 humanoid dots

2 yellow blobs that are clearly gwiffons

1 indeterminate blob in formation with the yellow blobs so I think it may be another gwiffon or Vinnie

1 humanoid dot riding a yellow blob

In panel 11 there are:

6 humanoid dots

Therefore there are 12 Transylvito units, possibly 13 if that indeterminate blob is Vinnie.

IS EVERYONE LOOKING AT SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM ME?????

Seriously... I feel I must really be missing something

and please don't quote old strips to support a position, I am talking about panels 10 and 11

[Richbin]

Although I would have loved to see the Foolamancer fool Stanley (and might yet get to see him do this), I will enjoy witnessing the upcoming batle a shade more, methinks... although I am a-feared... of losing main characters, and even secondaries.... ooooh... so looking forward to the smashbats and vampiric pudding to follow.

[DrivinAllNight]

I went through some of the forum, and read the comic, and it is a great fish eye view, once you know it is a fish eye view, and judging from the comic, Tool and Jack appear unaware that there is a stack of Transylvito's behind them, will be interesting to see them start to punch through as the tail end is cut down at the same time.

[Laurentio II]

IS EVERYONE LOOKING AT SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM ME?????

Seriously... I feel I must really be missing something

and please don't quote old strips to support a position, I am talking about panels 10 and 11

Can't speak for others, but I noticed and passed on. Three hypothesis:
1 - it's an illusion and it's a Jack's trivial error. In this case, we will know next page;
2 - there is one more person that supposed, and there will be a surprise add to the battle. In this case, we will know next page;
3 - the author made a mistake, or a gwiffon is pictured in a way that resembles a Vampire Warlord. In this case, we will know next page.

So, you are right, but it's nothing that is going to be heavily discussed on a thread.

[shamelessmerc]

Can't speak for others, but I noticed and passed on. Three hypothesis:
1 - it's an illusion and it's a Jack's trivial error. In this case, we will know next page;
2 - there is one more person that supposed, and there will be a surprise add to the battle. In this case, we will know next page;
3 - the author made a mistake, or a gwiffon is pictured in a way that resembles a Vampire Warlord. In this case, we will know next page.

So, you are right, but it's nothing that is going to be heavily discussed on a thread.

I'm just drawing attention to that fact that several people on this threat have backed up opinions with 'proof' from the strip that doesn't stand up when scrutinised.

Ok, maybe it constricts the free flow of debate a bit, but I tend to take a good long look at what I am talking about when I post. It stops me having to climb down from a foolishly assumed position; or invent increasingly twisted explanations as to why I SHOULD have been right *cough*

Word to the wise folks:
If you can't master basic observation, don't expect the big boys to play nice when you stick your foot in your mouth.

BTW: This is mostly fallout from dealing with a customer guilty of the same error. Only with him I CAN'T tell him He's an idiot.

Normally I really enjoy the quality of debate on the erfworld threads.

[teratorn]

Therefore there are 12 Transylvito units, possibly 13 if that indeterminate blob is Vinnie.

IS EVERYONE LOOKING AT SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM ME?????

I wouldn't make much of an extra unit in one of these images where no detail is present. The only important thing is that the transylvitians are sort of equally split between the two groups.

I still remember making some simple assumptions when Parson inspected his troops and estimating GK had between 10,000 e 30,000 units.