Demonic figures in culture (3.5 speculation)

[imp_fireball]

Anyone want to make possible speculations on monster/npc/pc builds that could reflect any known figures in popular culture, culture, or religion in general?

Ie: Satan is (imo) a half demon/half devil who rebelled against the bible's god (despite being a devil, or being referred to as 'the devil', he is likely chaotic evil, contradicting the generally lawful evil nature of devils reflected in the core rules). The chaotic nature stems from the question of why else would he rebel against god? To be purposely thrown out?

Satan also rules over several abyssal domains (nine or so, according to Dante), also ruling over all the demons and devils (assuming devils) that live in those places. This is unique considering most demons and devils are considered 'lords' after ruling just one domain which is likely inhabited by their species as well as probable other species that have been warped to become their species (demon or devil) through having inhabited the abyssal plane for prolonged periods of time.

What are the probable statistics of Satan? I've already speculated at race and alignment, but what about level and class (monster is acceptible)?

Feel free to include speculations on other demon/devil/abyssal characters as well. Another one I've mused over recently would be Sargeras from the warcraft series, exhibiting (while clearly evil) a confusion between lawful and chaotic (and being insane doesn't eliminate questions of alignment, btw, since 'insane' is not an alignment).

[afroakuma]

In my own take on the D&D cosmology (spoilered for those waiting for the official thread)

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Satan was the second lord of Baator (Baat being the first) and ceded the throne of the Hells to Lucifer when the fallen angels arrived. Lucifer was deposed in a coup by the other lords, and Satan attempted (with some success) to rule them. He was directly challenged by their leader, Asmodeus, and slain by him. Yes, this makes Satan the leader of the Ancient Baatorians.

[imp_fireball]

Do you have character sheets on baat, satan, lucifer (the 'bearer of light' dude) and asmodeus?

On another note: Asmodeus, oddly enough (possibly due to lack of creativity) looks too much like cthulu in HGL.

[afroakuma]

Don't know which Asmodeus YOU were looking at ... he's statted in BoVD and FCII if you're interested.

As pointed out pre-spoiler,

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Baat and Satan are Ancient Baatorians, and will be done as part of a future project. So at this time, I unfortunately do not have them statted. Lucifer is in a similar state at the moment, except that I don't intend to include him in an AB project. I may do an independent workup for him, if you so desire and I find time this week.

[RTGoodman]

I do believe Necromancer Games' Tome of Horrors monster book has, among other things, stats for Lucifer and other devil-type beings. I'll have to check when I get a chance, but if you happen to have it you might want to take a look - if not for actual stats, then at least for some ideas.

[afroakuma]

Good call, rtg. I've never read it, but I always hear good things.

[RTGoodman]

Oh, it is good, and luckily I remembered that my (PDF) copy was saved on my flash drive rather than my old laptop, so I could look through it without booting up the old piece of junk.

Lucifer is indeed in the Tome of Horrors, as a CR 37 Devil Lord whose entry takes up a full 4 pages or so. It also has stats for Baphomet, Bael, Moloch, Juiblex, and a bunch of other demon and devil lords, both real-world based and D&D-specific.

[Innis Cabal]

Dicefreaks. Go to Dicefreaks

[MythMage]

Dicefreaks. Go to Dicefreaks

In case someone actually wants to follow this advice (which would be a good idea; DF's best work so far has likely been developing Hell in the publication The Gates of Hell), there's a link in my signature to the general site, where you'll find some people well-versed in Hell and interested in discussing it. And here's a link to downloads of Gates in particular: http://dicefreaks.forumz.cc/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8

[Pronounceable]

I thought Dicefreaks was dead. When did it come back?

[EvilElitest]

here is mine

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In the begging there was the primal forces of the universe. Then the first signs of higher life came. When the first mortal came into existence, he wondered where he was, and from there came the gods of neutrality, thought and awareness. Then he thought what his duty was in this world, and law and order and honor came into existence. Then he wondered what the point was and then chaos, and independence came. Then he saw a the heavens. And here there are two version of the story. one says he say them and wept, over come by the joys of the world, and swore to make it better than before. The other says he saw it and laughed, determined to make the world his own and dominate it. He did both, but in what order? What ever the order, two beings came into existence. From his evil thoughts, his ambitions, his inner cruelty, his selfishness and his fear came a corporal being. A truly evil cruel creature, who's name is unknown, but is now known as the name of the first mortal, Satan. The other was a small child, who had no name but was made up of all the love and mercy and kindness in the first mortal. Satan knew this being was going to be his rival, so he consumed him while he was small. But in doing so, he started to feel a massive pain in his stomach, and he started to consume himself. And Satan tore himself apart and from his body rose the abyss. The child's body became the heavens and his spirit went on to become the holy light. And so the universe was created

Thats Satan but here is Lucifer.

You know fiendish codex II? Well the story goes like that except there is an important detail missing. The fallen angel is not Asmodeus, despite his claims but instead the lord of light, Lucifer the light briging, then called Sataniel conspired to bring about a new rule, with the light destroying the darkness. But light cannot exist without the abilty of free will and for his hubris he fell. His hell was to be the rival of Satan's and it was he who drove the last avatar of the lord of evil into the final level of the Abysses along with the seven sins, his most powerful servants. However in driving Satan back, Lucifer lost the last reminate of his light power and he retreated to hell, hte rival of the abysses. Then he learned of the mortal realm, and determined, while Satan was the lord of Evil, he shall be the lord of sin, specifically pride. however, the forces of good felt taht he was too much of a threat, and so they struck a deal with one of the seven sins, lust who struck just as Lucifer hoped to expand hell into the mortal realm. In a moment of betrayal, the six sins and Lucifer were banished into the new realm, where they were trapped forever, and it shut. The realm was visited only once in history and has remained closed ever since, except to the souls of Devils and other Evil outsiders who've been destoryed. The visiter was a young man of which little is known save his name, Dante.

The left over the the original hell became the realm of the final sin, lust who betrayed his master. his name was Asmodeus and he has ruled ever since
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[MythMage]

As I see it, Lucifer the Satan was a fallen angel, and so "Satan" was never a separate individual; just a title of Lucifer's. Lucifer became a servant to Ahriman AKA Asmodeus, the great serpent of Lawful Evil whose fall created the Nine Hells as mentioned in the Manual of the Planes. After Lucifer ruled Hell for some time, he began to attract too much attention from other planes to Hell, and there began to be some risk that he might inspire Hell's many enemies and competitors to unite in attacking the place directly. Asmodeus created an avatar and through it betrayed and destroyed Lucifer. He has ruled Hell directly ever since, using a much more subtle approach to the outside Multiverse.

(Though influenced by Dicefreaks, my take isn't the same as theirs.)

I thought Dicefreaks was dead. When did it come back?

Though one of the sites died, the community just moved immediately to another, temporary, one and kept right on going (a bit smaller, since some folks missed the announcement of the temp site's location). Last April they got a new permanent site.