Erfworld 128 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 116

[Godskook]

Biggest problem here would be if Ansom gets a real-time update on enemy troop count and composition, in which case he should be expecting such a move. But we've seen no firm indication that that's the case. Parson received his RCC composition roster as part of the spell-backed Stupid Meal, but does Ansom have a similar source of intel?

He has no lookamancers. Once communication units went down, Ansom has no b**ping clue what is going on in there. And as far as we know, one needs to be in the same hex to see a unit's stats. That would mean that displayed or not, Ansom hasn't a clue how long these reinforcements will last, nor what other tricks Parson has waiting for him. This could lead to arguments for and against attacking immediately.

[SteveD]

When exactly did Wanda betray him? Did I miss an update?

Well Stanley has finally figured out that Jillian, the one who's been causing him so much trouble, also knows Jack. It isn't a great leap even for him to figure out she's a former Faq unit, and that Wanda had been keeping that from him. Knowing Stanley I'd guess that would make him fairly pissed at Wanda.

But there's something missing in Wanda and Jacks motivations, a piece of the puzzle I can't seem to figure out. Why are they so loyal to Stanley, and why hasn't Wanda tried to use that to turn Jillian?

Is it possible that Wanda is somehow responsible for the fall of Faq?

[teratorn]

That would mean that displayed or not, Ansom hasn't a clue how long these reinforcements will last, nor what other tricks Parson has waiting for him. This could lead to arguments for and against attacking immediately.

Well, he probably has. He knows it's unlikely GK has more than a croakamancer, so seeing ~1000 undead he knows they'll be the weakest kind. The problem will be his allies not willing to take chances and deciding to wait.

Ansom knows by now he can't go against Stanley as he used to do, he's not facing just a pretty boy overlord. He made two "mistakes" up to now and got his ass handed out to him both times. Fortunately for him Jillian erased GK's air-force, but he knows Parson will try something else, probably as devastating as the last two moves.

[paddyfool]

Anyone complaining about the huge army turning up out of nowhere has never played games of the Warlords or Heroes of Might and Magic variety. In those games, if you win a big battle and a decent necromancer on your side survives then (bing!) you get a whole new army, although admittedly, one made up of very poor units.

Such situations allow for "steamroller" tactics, where a force actually grows as it fights more battles (so long as they are sufficiently one-sided, as this one was) and "harvesting" tactics (where you pick on weak forces to build up your own in numbers as well as XP). It also makes the difference between a narrow victory and a narrow defeat even greater than usual. The big difference between Erf and those games is actually something of a nerf, since the units in Erf that you get this way only last a few turns.

[TheJustWiseSage]

I'd just like to post my thoughts and comments to this debate:

1) As to Stanley being able to land upon reaching GK, well, He has possibly the best foolamancer with him, to sneak in .. BUT ... archons seem to be able to see/detect spells.

2) If your units are only going to last a couple of turns, would it not be best to suicide them against your enemy on the turn before they disintegrate.

3) Stanley and dragons would not have leveled, as we've already been told that if flee a fight, you don't gain experience. erf0061

Now when do unit's level up? Beginning of your next turn? If I remember correctly that's when you got to choose new abilities in HOMM3.

Surely, we can expect Sizemore to level, for being in the combats,etc, and I'll make the assumption that he's never fought before therefore he's never levelled up, how many levels could he expected to go up (after his stacks/traps/etc kill over 1000 troops).

Will Parson level? As the city counts as his stack?

[SteveMB]

Ansom knows by now he can't go against Stanley as he used to do, he's not facing just a pretty boy overlord. He made two "mistakes" up to now and got his ass handed out to him both times. Fortunately for him Jillian erased GK's air-force, but he knows Parson will try something else, probably as devastating as the last two moves.

Rationally, that's how he should analyze the situation. However, the way Parson has been playing him, it seems unlikely that Ansom will be entirely rational....

[Maurice]

If Parson has his new zombie army stage a berserker charge, then he'll have to expose Wanda for them to have any combat utility, and the corpses of anyone they kill will be unusable (due to Wanda's casting fatigue) until they pop at day's end.

If he ends turn and lets the battle come to him, then Wanda can give a stack bonus without exposing herself to risk, and she'll be ready to raise a whole new batch of shock troops at the end of the battle (assuming they win, of course).

Plus, by waiting, he gives Ansom the opportunity to do something stupid, like lead from the front with his Arkenpliers in hand.

[teratorn]

Rationally, that's how he should analyze the situation. However, the way Parson has been playing him, it seems unlikely that Ansom will be entirely rational....

Yeah, I know. That's one of the reasons why I really hate having to wait for the next strip. I want to see Ansom "exploding." Without Vinny by his side he is even more likely to do something stupid.

[Lamech]

Well, he probably has. He knows it's unlikely GK has more than a croakamancer, so seeing ~1000 undead he knows they'll be the weakest kind. The problem will be his allies not willing to take chances and deciding to wait.

Ansom knows by now he can't go against Stanley as he used to do, he's not facing just a pretty boy overlord. He made two "mistakes" up to now and got his ass handed out to him both times. Fortunately for him Jillian erased GK's air-force, but he knows Parson will try something else, probably as devastating as the last two moves.

I suppose that makes sense, that Parson will pull another devestating move out of no where if he is left too his own devices. Of course, the same logic could show that the walls and garrison will have devestating defenses. So what will the coalition do? Will they wait for the undead to disolve, giving Parson time to mess with them and have his casters prepare things like golems and traps? Or will they attack the heavily defended walls?
Both options could end badly, if Parson has more tricks were the first two came from they need to attack, but if he has more traps like the air defenses, and tunnel traps then attacking would be suicide. (Not that Parson actually has wall traps, but the coalition doesn't know that.)

I hope there is an update soon...

[SteveMB]

3) And this is what I don't get not being done: Hold the new reserves out of sight, in order to lure Ansom into making his planned breaching attack on the walls, then flank him with far more forces then he expects. Risky, and likely to lose many uncroaked, but hey they're expendable and replaceable. Ansom's troops are not. This is after all essentially the very plan used to lure Webby's troops to their doom in the tunnels to begin with.

"How will they react when they see more than a thousand uncroaked Jetstone infantry on our walls? I really don't know."

The implication I get is that Parson is gambling on another psychological ploy against Ansom, betting that the possibility of getting him to do something stupid outweighs the benefit of keeping the new units hidden.

Biggest problem here would be if Ansom gets a real-time update on enemy troop count and composition, in which case he should be expecting such a move. But we've seen no firm indication that that's the case. Parson received his RCC composition roster as part of the spell-backed Stupid Meal, but does Ansom have a similar source of intel?

AFAIK, Ansom's intel about enemy forces is limited to what Coalition forces have encountered or what Coalition scouts have seen.

[Arkenputtyknife]

As Chief Warlord, every unit in the city gets his Leadership Bonus.

Minor point, but it says "of my capital", not "in the city". That suggests that the bonus applies to all GK units, including those in the field.

1) As to Stanley being able to land upon reaching GK, well, He has possibly the best foolamancer with him, to sneak in .. BUT ... archons seem to be able to see/detect spells.

So what? It's Stanley's city, Ansom has nothing that can stop him getting in and landing, and at the moment the Archons are only observers, and won't stand in his way without new orders. Stanley doesn't need Jack to land there.

[SteveD]

1) It's still GK's turn, so they could be used immediately against the surrounding seige units. From what we've been told, those are still not all in position, else Ansom would have attacked the walls on his last turn. The tunnels were collapsed, blocking that entry and another hit on the siege like they took from the Dwagons and the RCC may not have enough to breach the wall. Parson specifically mention "siege raids" as a possibility.

We don't necessarily know that uncroaked units have any move on the turn they are uncroaked, which they would need to attack outside the city hex (note, we don't know if movement within a hex, such as between zones in a city would use any move).

2) Immediately reinforce the walls, now the logical target of Ansom's next turn. Perhaps he is thinking that seeing them there will enrage Ansom into carelessness, but I doubt it. The attack is expected in any case, but Ansom is no fool. If he sees a short term buildup, he should know to wait out it's decay. Or is this actually Parson's reason?

Parson is trying to manipulate Ansom into being reckless, as we saw before with his thinkagram.

3) And this is what I don't get not being done: Hold the new reserves out of sight, in order to lure Ansom into making his planned breaching attack on the walls, then flank him with far more forces then he expects. Risky, and likely to lose many uncroaked, but hey they're expendable and replaceable. Ansom's troops are not. This is after all essentially the very plan used to lure Webby's troops to their doom in the tunnels to begin with.

We don't know the scope of the ambush mechanics, or if a plan like that could be executed on someone elses turn. But the walls likely offer some sort of defenders bonus, and doctrine for fighting a force of superior numbers is almost always by using choke-points. Letting the enemy breach the walls too easily would throw away these advantages.

Biggest problem here would be if Ansom gets a real-time update on enemy troop count and composition, in which case he should be expecting such a move. But we've seen no firm indication that that's the case. Parson received his RCC composition roster as part of the spell-backed Stupid Meal, but does Ansom have a similar source of intel?

Unlikely, as Ansom lacks any lookmancers. Near the beginning he was heavily dependant on Vinnys bats for intel.

[SteveMB]

So what? It's Stanley's city, Ansom has nothing that can stop him getting in and landing, and at the moment the Archons are only observers, and won't stand in his way without new orders. Stanley doesn't need Jack to land there.

Stanley doesn't know that unless Parson tells him. That requires Stanley to talk to Parson and actually listen to him. Admittedly, that's a bit more likely given the changes in his attitude we've seen lately -- for that matter, simply wondering what the boop is going on might get him to be more reasonable in that regard.

(note, we don't know if movement within a hex, such as between zones in a city would use any move)

Yes, we do. No, it doesn't.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Arkenpliers give a huge bonus against uncroaked. I think Parson may be counting on Ansom to try and lead his troops against the wall. That way Parson could use the old bait and switch and send lots of his infantry against him to hopefully croak or capture him. Then next turn send the uncroaked against the seige to draw them into a stalemate.

[DevilDan]

Arkenpliers give a huge bonus against uncroaked. I think Parson may be counting on Ansom to try and lead his troops against the wall. That way Parson could use the old bait and switch and send lots of his infantry against him to hopefully croak or capture him. Then next turn send the uncroaked against the seige to draw them into a stalemate.

For Boop's sake, Ansom specifically says that the pliers are at best only a good melee weapon with an individual bonus against undead.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0022.html

Parson mentions an artifact bonus, but we don't know how that applies or what it is.

"How will they react when they see more than a thousand uncroaked Jetstone infantry on our walls? I really don't know."

The implication I get is that Parson is gambling on another psychological ploy against Ansom, betting that the possibility of getting him to do something stupid outweighs the benefit of keeping the new units hidden.

I think that applies more to the other members of the coalition rather than to Ansom specifically. (He does sya "they.")

Finally, I feel that I should point out that Parson says that any good croakamancer can uncroak every corpse in a hex or city, not just a very powerful one like Wanda (though we don't even know how powerful Wanda is compared to other croakamancers, I hasten to add). It would appear that the writer doesn't even think that he needs to defend Wanda from criticisms of being "overpowered."

[MattR]

Finally, I feel that I should point out that Parson says that any good croakamancer can uncroak every corpse in a hex or city, not just a very powerful one like Wanda (though we don't even know how powerful Wanda is compared to other croakamancers, I hasten to add). It would appear that the writer doesn't even think that he needs to defend Wanda from criticisms of being "overpowered."

And why should the writer feel the need to defend Wanda. Its pretty clearly stated that to uncroak this many leaves them weak versions of the original and they only last for afew turns. I really can't see how anyone can consider them as overpowered in light of those facts.

[DevilDan]

And why should the writer feel the need to defend Wanda. Its pretty clearly stated that to uncroak this many leaves them weak versions of the original and they only last for afew turns. I really can't see how anyone can consider them as overpowered in light of those facts.

I quite agree, as I've stated previously. I'm just pointing out that defenders of the uncroaked army usually add "and Wanda's the most powerful caster" (something which we really don't know; I mean, Maggie is certainly competent and Jack is described as "world-class" or the like); the writer, however, is saying that any "good" croakamancer can do it. This just underlines the spuriousness of the criticisms.

[Aquillion]

The question is, how will Stanley react when he gets back to his city and finds several dozen Archons floating over it? He's not exactly friendly with Charlie, and he wasn't on very good terms with Parson and the rest when he left, so he could easily assume the worst and attack the Archons on sight.

Also... what happened to Jillian and the Translvito forces? Are they just going to follow Stanley back to GK next turn? Because that could get dicy, especially if Stanley attacks Charlie's forces over GK. It's easy to see how everything could go to hell, even if Parson wins the battle against Ansom and the rest of the coalition.

[randomnondescri]

3) And this is what I don't get not being done: Hold the new reserves out of sight, in order to lure Ansom into making his planned breaching attack on the walls, then flank him with far more forces then he expects.

Sure, but by this point Ansom had better expect traps; Parson has got by thus far because Ansom underestimated him.
Remember, Parson isn't necessarily fighting to win, just to survive. It would be a big gamble, but a large sally might make Ansom think that Parson has plenty troops to spare if he's willing to send them outside the gates, and it denies Ansom the chance to strike from distance and avoid meeting his zombified troops face to face. Given what we know of Ansom, such a tactic might not make him withdraw, but it could make his allies think twice about sticking around to the bitter end.

[DevilDan]

Also... what happened to Jillian and the Translvito forces? Are they just going to follow Stanley back to GK next turn? Because that could get dicy, especially if Stanley attacks Charlie's forces over GK. It's easy to see how everything could go to hell, even if Parson wins the battle against Ansom and the rest of the coalition.

The TV strike force could heat for GK or they may think that Stanley will use Jack to try to hide from them and still get to Faq. I think, however, that it's likely that Don King will want his valuable chief warlord back now that their gamble failed to bear fruit in the form of Stanley's head.

[Alexei P]

And why should the writer feel the need to defend Wanda. Its pretty clearly stated that to uncroak this many leaves them weak versions of the original and they only last for afew turns. I really can't see how anyone can consider them as overpowered in light of those facts.

Well, its not so much a matter of actual rules than their presentation. In this strip, we suddenly see Wanda animating a boop-load of uncroaked units (more than a thousand!!!), so several people cry "Deus ex Machina!" That's understandable, because we weren't told beforehand that Wanda could do a thing like that.

The strip wouldn't get such a reaction if the following exchange had been shown in a previous strip:

Parson: So Wanda, how many uncroaked can you create in a turn? 's there a limit?
Wanda: Croakamancy comes from the mind, Parson. The more time and attention the caster spends uncroaking the unit, the closer it will be to its original strength when alive.
Parson: So, you're saying you could animate a boop-load of uncroaked if you wished...
Wanda: But they would the weakest kind, and decay in just a few turns.
Parson: ...So I guess its better strategy to uncroak a few powerful units, then.
Wanda: Indeed. Not that I presume to know much about such things...

Then, after learning that a Croakamancer leading a stack of uncroaked grant them a huge bonus, and later seeing the "Transylvito style" exploit, where wimpy bats become "almost like heavies", today's strip would send everyone going "OMG! Parson! That's freakin', boopin', just - BRILLIANT!", because Parson would be seen exploiting overlooked details in game mechanics.

Instead, here, the "Croakamancers can uncroak as many troops as they want, man!" mechanic is introduced in the same strip as it is "SPLOIT"ed, so we get the impression that the ability itself is unbalanced and game-breaking.

[Alexei P]

Also, is it just me, or is Maggie rapidly turning into Parson's "pet confidante"?

[Fighteer]

Instead, here, the "Croakamancers can uncroak as many troops as they want, man!" mechanic is introduced in the same strip as it is "SPLOIT"ed, so we get the impression that the ability itself is unbalanced and game-breaking.

I don't agree. We already know that Croakamancers can uncroak units, even multiple units at once. The only question that was left unasked is "how many", something that Parson wouldn't have necessarily had reason or time to ask up until now.

Perhaps what's irking you about Erfworld is the relative lack of Chekhov's Guns being used by the authors. Since the game/world mechanics are mainly being narrated from Parson's perspective as he learns them, pretty much everything becomes plot-relevant soon after it's revealed. Likewise, since this premise is already known to us as the readers, we should have no reason to expect otherwise.

I mean, if you think the mass-uncroaking is a Deus Ex Machina, how about Wanda calling down the meganuke on Jillian's stack in #95/96? I mean, we knew GK had some kind of air defenses, but their scope and power wasn't the subject of exhaustive discussion beforehand.

To summarize, there has never been an implied promise by the author that every mechanic and rule will be explained to us in advance, so why you'd expect it in this case is rather confusing. If this weakens the story in your mind, that's fine... you're definitely in the minority with that opinion.

[Aquillion]

But it's not a very good sploit. All the enemy has to do is wait two turns or so, and you'll have wasted both the corpses and your casting.

[Krelon]

But it's not a very good sploit. All the enemy has to do is wait two turns or so, and you'll have wasted both the corpses and your casting.

Well, the problem is Parson has no time and few options. Wasting the casting on these weakest kind of uncroaked buys exactly what he needs: time and options. The Tool with his hammer and dwagons will be back (adding another bonus to the defenders). Parson can send more thinkagrams to various warlords and leaders. He can waste one thousand troops on a suicidal destroy the siege mission before the fall apart. He can play Ansom to attack before his new toys decompose.

So all in all not bad. Perhaps in the long run adding several reanimated warlords to his army would be better but that's a luxury he cannot afford.

[Sieggy]

But it's not a very good sploit. All the enemy has to do is wait two turns or so, and you'll have wasted both the corpses and your casting.

Which Parson is aware of, and realizes that for the balance of his turn (he has no way of knowing when it will end), they're best used for psyops. Next turn, he needs to use them, because the turn after that, he has mobile fertilizer.

Since the end of the turn is up to Stanley, who is making tracks as fast as he can, I would assume he will put as much distance as he can between him and the TV forces who will (he assumes) be in hot pursuit. That means he will drag his turn out as long as he can, at least for his max move. And we don't know if his move prior to entering the gap reduces his move away from it. If so, his pursuers will likely catch up with him, which makes Jack a good boy to have . . .

The question is then whether or not the TV forces will pursue (after all, the trap failed . . . which is why Caesar and the crew were dispatched to begin with) or lick their wounds and go home. Either way, Jillian & Vinnie will be close behind him, though the move rates of dwagons vs gwiffons is an unknown at this point. However, I would expect them to overtake him before he can get to GK. Though if it's just the two of them, going after Stanley and 6 dwagons may not be a good idea . . .

[Olibarro]

But it's not a very good sploit. All the enemy has to do is wait two turns or so, and you'll have wasted both the corpses and your casting.

Exactly! Normally this is not a very wise or powerful move. It's effectiveness here is almost entirely in the intended psychological effect it will have on the enemy.

[Olibarro]

Either way, Jillian & Vinnie will be close behind him, though the move rates of dwagons vs gwiffons is an unknown at this point. However, I would expect them to overtake him before he can get to GK. Though if it's just the two of them, going after Stanley and 6 dwagons may not be a good idea . . .

We know that faster dwagons have a move of 56 or better, and it would be reasonable to assume Stanley's mount is a faster dwagon.

The gwiffon Jillian used in the beginning had 52 move, so it is reasonable to guess that her current mount has something in that general range.

It is possible that her gwiffon can outfly Stanley's dwagon, but my money says that it can't.

[Fighteer]

We know that faster dwagons have a move of 56 or better, and it would be reasonable to assume Stanley's mount is a faster dwagon.

The gwiffon Jillian used in the beginning had 52 move, so it is reasonable to guess that her current mount has something in that general range.

It is possible that her gwiffon can outfly Stanley's dwagon, but my money says that it can't.

Stanley has used a non-zero amount of his move this turn to reach the ambush hex. How much that is, we don't know, but it's certainly possible that Jillian and company could catch up to him on their turn.

However, a more appropriate question would be how Jillian would be able to find Stanley, now that Jack is back in the land of the sane (more or less). It seemed pretty clear to me that unless they managed to intercept Stanley while he was still in the hex, they had little to no chance of catching him.

Indeed, given the fact that units must normally be in the same hex to spot each other, Stanley may be able to evade serious pursuit anyway, just by varying his path a little. Jillian can't possibly afford to divide her forces sufficiently to scout every possible path he might take and still have a hope of defeating him; that's why they arranged to intercept him in that pass in the first place. The Foolamancer simply makes a crushingly difficult task completely impossible.

[DevilDan]

We know that faster dwagons have a move of 56 or better, and it would be reasonable to assume Stanley's mount is a faster dwagon.

The gwiffon Jillian used in the beginning had 52 move, so it is reasonable to guess that her current mount has something in that general range.

It is possible that her gwiffon can outfly Stanley's dwagon, but my money says that it can't.

His group "A" dwagons are gone. That likely means that the dragons he has now have less than 56 moves. But Stanley used up moves just getting to the mountain pass. I see no reason why Jillian et al cannot catch up to him once their turn begins, except that maybe they'd rather keep guarding that hex. After all, what's to prevent Stanley from doubling back, especially with Jack's assistance. They can assume that Stanley is returning to GK, but that's not a problem (or so they and Ansom think or thought) for the coalition: until the recent battle under GK, this was going to be a "curb-stomping."