Ravnica:: City of Wolves! [game begins!]

[Alarra]

Alright...currently we have 39 players, so everyone on the waiting list has been added to the main player list. One more person can sign up and be added to the game now, and then we will start a waiting list again.

[Uncle Festy]

*sidles in*
That's the nice thing about having your co-narrator be a mod – they can edit your posts for you.
Anyhow, the game is –*technically – supposed to start today. If I get time to write up an opening post (or Alarra wants to do it for me) we can start then. If not, we'll start as soon as one of us finishes the opening scene. Speaking of which…
*runs off to talk to Alarra about the opening scene*

[Shadowcaller]

Hmm... After reading the victory conditions I see that some of the victory conditions don't really make sense plot-wise, I'm sure they do game-wise thought but why would Simic want to kill Dimir?

[Alarra]

Because they think Dimir killed their elder.

[Shadowcaller]

Because they think Dimir killed their elder.

I see... *curses himself for missing that in the opening post*

[Fan]

Read the books people!
Albiet it should be The Boros wanting to kill Dimir due to

Spoiler

Show

Him taking down selesyna, and attempting to kill Mas Slesyna to gain her power.

[Shadowcaller]

Read the books people!
Albiet it should be The Boros wanting to kill Dimir due to

Spoiler

Show

Him taking down selesyna, and attempting to kill Mas Slesyna to gain her power.

I have, thats why the Dimir/Simic didin't make sense (atleast if your going only after the books) since they seemed to work thogether just fine there. But then again, Dimir was nothing more then a puppet to The Azorius at the time so...

[Fan]

I have, thats why the Dimir/Simic didin't make sense (atleast if your going only after the books) since they seemed to work thogether just fine there. But then again, Dimir was nothing more then a puppet to The Azorius at the time so...

Spoiler that for the people who have not read the books.
Also yes, thats why I'm agreeing with you.

[Ganurath]

It's spelled Rakdos. Also, I really don't want to nitpick, but some of these don't make sense. Gruul want to kill Boros? Orzhov want to kill Simic? If I may put forward a more... linear alternative. Spoiler alert.

Spoiler

Show

Azorius targets Golgari and Gruul, as the Guilds of Chaos must be culled to restore Order to Ravnica.
Dimir targets Boros and Selesnya, as Argus Kos was the only one Szadek let himself be vulnerable to, and the Chorus has enough strength of spirit to challenge the guild's dominion of undeath.
Rakdos targets Simic and Azorius, because a lawmage was flying around Novejin before it attacked Rakdos.
Gruul targets Orzhov and Dimir, because with the latest power vacuum in the clans the Scab Clan has taken over, and the word is now payback against slavers and deceivers.
Selesnya targets Izzet and Rakdos, because rats have been attacking Vitu Ghazi and the nephilim attack started at the site of Izzet ruins.
Golgari targets Azorius and Simic, because the Senate did nothing about the kidnapping of the guildmaster's son, and the Simic clearly had it in for the guildmaster for not cooperating with their Xanatos Gambit.
Boros targets Dimir and Orzhov, because it's about time a counterattack to the decamillenial was launched, and it's rather suspicious that the Orzhov walked away from the nephilim, Rakdos, and Kraj with only superficial (Utvara) damage.
Simic targets Rakdos and Izzet, because Rakdos killed Kraj and Niv-Mizzet killed multiple nephilim.
Orzhov targets Gruul and Golgari, because with the Guildpact broken, the Chaos guilds are no longer neccesary, which means an opportunity to start slaving and crusading in earnest.
Izzet targets Selesnya and Boros, because that retired wojek and that funny tree ruined a perfectly good experiment, and killed dragons!

Of course, that's just my opinion, and does involve the Izzet getting caught up in the mess.

[Reinholdt]

Or we could just say the game is balanced this way, and sometimes that's more valuable than following the setting exactly.

[Shadowcaller]

Or we could just say the game is balanced this way, and sometimes that's more valuable than following the setting exactly.

Yeah, my point exactly. I'm sure Uncle Feasty and Alarra have put a great deal of thought behind those victory conditions for balance... right?

[Madmal]

and it seems this game isn't set on a definitive part of the storyline

Spoiler

Show

since niv-mizzet dissapeared after destroying two of the nephilim, and yet, his role is showing here.

[Alarra]

I know nothing about the books or the storyline or who would be attacking who. Festy figured out that list. If yours is more appropriate flavor-wise, and you can make it balance...meaning Izzet is not in the mix and no guild is targeting a guild that is also targeting them, (so selesnya, golgari, boros, simic, and orzhov would have to be changed, especially since you currently have azorius and orzhov with the same two targets as one another, which is an alliance waiting to happen...) and run it by Festy, we'd be willing to consider a switch.

[Duos]

Hmmm. Well, I see an easy solution to the target problem, using an RPS model, but I'm not sure how to fit the guilds together... O.K., here we are.

Guild A targets guild B and C. Guild B targets guild C and D. Guild C targets guild D and E... All the way to guild H targeting I and A, and guild I targeting A and B. Each guild is targeted by two guilds and is the target of two guilds. No chance of team up since guilds with a common target are also enemies, I.E. A and B cannot team up against C, as A must then kill B. Now if you excuse me, I have a book of logic puzzles that need solving.
*Ninja poof!*

[Uncle Festy]

Um…
Look at a guild, any guild. Now look at it's targets. Now look at the next three below it (ignoring the Izzet, looping back to the top at the end). Compare.
Do you see it yet?

[evnafets]

Hmmm. Well, I see an easy solution to the target problem, using an RPS model, but I'm not sure how to fit the guilds together... O.K., here we are.
[snip]

Yes all well and good, but completely missing the point.
The complaint is that the current "balanced" designation of targets does not match with the storyline. Attempts to come up with a distribution matched on storyline (to date) have not been balanced.

Yes its easy and logical to go A,B,C but the end result is no better than pretty much exactly what we currently have with regards to storyline

[Duos]

Well, consider the network i showed to be more of a frame. Just map it out and plug in the guilds in a way that fits. If you REALLY want to get technical, there isn't really a way to balance the guilds in a manner consistent with the books, because: The Grull hate everybody, The Orzhov have no real role in the books, The Azorius are plotting to destroy all of the other guilds, and the Golgari, Simic, and Rakdos all hate the Boros and, in the end, each other. You COULD try to map it out by color, though.

[Ganurath]

Um…
Look at a guild, any guild. Now look at it's targets. Now look at the next three below it (ignoring the Izzet, looping back to the top at the end). Compare.
Do you see it yet?

Ach, I see it, and my poor Vorthos heart, it breaks. What's more, with symmetry, there's no potential for political complexity beyond who scries and kills what first. Now, the following list is balanced, flavorful, and a bit less linear:

Spoiler

Show

Cult of Rakdos: When most Rakdos die, they do so in a manner that gets revenge against the ones who slight them. When they're taken alive, though, they are brought before Azorius courts by Orzhov lawmages. Ergo, with the fall of the Guildpact, the time has come for vengeance!
Golgari Guild: Jared had always had a philosophical opposition to the preachings of the Selesnyan Conclave, and coupled with the recent Orzhov crusade fund there are two likely suspects for recent aggression against the Golgari.
Gruul Clans: The Gruul Clans have waned under the structure enforced by the Azorius Senate for over ten thousand years, and have been in constant conflict with the fanatics serving Rakdos. NO MORE!
Boros Legion: Argus Kos set a good baseline when he killed Momir Vig to prevent the success of Project Kraj, and the military police of Ravnica have decided to target the Simic in conjunction with their latest war with the Cult of Rakdos.
Selesnyan Conclave: It is as the Chorus has proclaimed all along, the assassins and spies of the Dimir have brought great evils upon the streets and spires of Ravnica. This, combined with the Simic Combine trying to plague the people with their false healing, and the time has come for a crusade.
Simic Combine: With the loss of Novejin and Momir Vig, the Combine is struggling to recover. It requires subjects to experiment upon, harvested from the ranks of the Gruul Clans. Furthermore, retribution must be had against the Golgari for their lack of cooperation with the late Momir Vig.
Azorius Senate: Leonos II, successor to the madman who had brought ruin to the Guildpact in a bid for absolute dominion, seeks to repair the damage he had inflicted. His plan involves curbing back the Boros Legion, and removing the last of House Dimir.
Orzhov Syndicate: Selesnya draws worshippers away from the Church of Deals, and they only existed to sustain the Guildpact. With the Guildpact broken, the Gruul Clans are no longer protected from Syndicate slavers. The time has come, the Ghost Council decrees, for a great culling to begin.
House Dimir: Szadek, Lord of Secrets, decreed that the angels must become extinct, and so the Boros must be eliminated. However, equally important is the annihilation of the Golgari: Savra knew where Duskmantle was, and may have told others where it was.

You like?

[Madmal]

A few flaws i see on Ganurath's idea:

Spoiler

Show

Golgari: Jared's Ex-wife, Fonn, is a Selesnyan Ledv. And i find it odd to enter in conflict because of that (they were in very good terms in the book), even if not for that, for his son.

Gruul: I find it more likely for the Gruul to wage war against the Orzhov, given that Utvara used to belong to them, iirc.

Azorius: Why would the new grand arbiter need to cut down the Boros? they've already suffered losses without the angels, and they are the enforcing arm of the law that they represent

what? i find it a necessity that this project should be sake of one of the most awesome sets of M:tG, cause it's outr dutie as-Oh, shiny!

V: *experiments the effects of bamsticks and paraelementals on the slivers* yay! fun!

[Reinholdt]

*sics slivers on everyone*

[Deathslayer7]

completely has no clue as to what this storyline refers too.

[Ganurath]

A few flaws i see on Ganurath's idea:

Spoiler

Show

Golgari: Jared's Ex-wife, Fonn, is a Selesnyan Ledv. And i find it odd to enter in conflict because of that (they were in very good terms in the book), even if not for that, for his son.

Gruul: I find it more likely for the Gruul to wage war against the Orzhov, given that Utvara used to belong to them, iirc.

Azorius: Why would the new grand arbiter need to cut down the Boros? they've already suffered losses without the angels, and they are the enforcing arm of the law that they represent

what? i find it a necessity that this project should be sake of one of the most awesome sets of M:tG, cause it's outr dutie as-Oh, shiny!

V: *experiments the effects of bamsticks and paraelementals on the slivers* yay! fun!

Spoiler

Show

Golgari: Admittedly, this was a weaker point flavor-wise. However, I should note that Fonn is Jared's ex, so they were broken off. Combine with what happened to him at the end of Dissension, and I see a relationship that's especially sour.

Gruul: Ah, but the conflict between Gruul and Rakdos is more important and immediate for the Gruul than that, and a lot of chiefs would figure that if the Orzhov get their strength from the laws, then by destroying the source of laws, the Azorius Senate, they cripple the Syndicate. That, and the Orzhov are targetting the Gruul and it can't go both ways.

Azorius: They have lost military power, this is true, but tend to create as much havoc as they prevent. With the angels no longer requiring the Legion as followers and the Guildpact no longer requiring magical balance, law enforcement can be handled by the much more disciplined Azorius Senate.

*watches as slivers are butchered by Rakdos clowns, plagued by Golgari undead, devoured by Scab-Clan Gruul, purged by Boros pyromancers, converted by Selesnyan quietmen, experimented upon by Simic biologists, fined by the Azorius Senate, slagged by Orzhov thrulls, disappeared by Dimir agents, and blown apart by Izzet mages*

[Duos]

No! Not the Slivers! they were actually an interesting concept! And one of my best decks is a sliver deck! *sics Time Spiral block on the guilds*

[DarkCorax]

Has a 40th player signed up? if not I'll take that place.

[Wreckingrocc]

No! Not the Slivers! they were actually an interesting concept! And one of my best decks is a sliver deck! *sics Time Spiral block on the guilds*

Time Spiral slivers = FTL.

It's all about Legions and that other set before it (I don't know what it's called, but my cousin gave me a bunch from back then).

I have a soul foundry-essence sliver combo that pwns. I've won a game with a bunch of slivers, each gaining me life equal to four times the amount of damage that they deal... Capped off with magma sliver, they start to hit 20 damage... It's crazy.

[Duos]

Stronghold, I believe it was. And yeah, they did have some awesome ones, like flying sliver and muscle sliver. It also had Crytalline sliver, which made your slivers untargetable, and talon sliver, which gave first strike. But Time Spiral had some GREAT slivers, unless you weren't paying attention. Like, they color-shifted Muscle Sliver into Sinew sliver (1/1 for two, all slivers get +1/+1), which is awesome value. Pulmonic sliver ( 3/3 for five, all sliver get flying and go to the top of your library instead of your graveyard when they're killed), Necrotic sliver (2/2 for 3, pay 3 and sac a sliver to destroy target permanent), gemhide sliver (1/1 for two, all slivers could tap to produce one mana of any color), and of, course, Venemous sliver, my favorite, which was 1/1 for one green and gave all sliver poisonous 1. Which STACKED. so you could kill someone on turn three with three 1/1 creatures. (Poisonous was where you if you got 10 poison counters your lost, remember?)

[Reinholdt]

Err... um... ok?
*only knows about early slivers*
*Becomes untargetable!*
*Flees!*

[Inhuman Bot]

(autolynch replacment list is empty? can I has a spot on it?)

[Uncle Festy]

Ach, I see it, and my poor Vorthos heart, it breaks. What's more, with symmetry, there's no potential for political complexity beyond who scries and kills what first. Now, the following list is balanced, flavorful, and a bit less linear:

Spoiler

Show

Cult of Rakdos: When most Rakdos die, they do so in a manner that gets revenge against the ones who slight them. When they're taken alive, though, they are brought before Azorius courts by Orzhov lawmages. Ergo, with the fall of the Guildpact, the time has come for vengeance!
Golgari Guild: Jared had always had a philosophical opposition to the preachings of the Selesnyan Conclave, and coupled with the recent Orzhov crusade fund there are two likely suspects for recent aggression against the Golgari.
Gruul Clans: The Gruul Clans have waned under the structure enforced by the Azorius Senate for over ten thousand years, and have been in constant conflict with the fanatics serving Rakdos. NO MORE!
Boros Legion: Argus Kos set a good baseline when he killed Momir Vig to prevent the success of Project Kraj, and the military police of Ravnica have decided to target the Simic in conjunction with their latest war with the Cult of Rakdos.
Selesnyan Conclave: It is as the Chorus has proclaimed all along, the assassins and spies of the Dimir have brought great evils upon the streets and spires of Ravnica. This, combined with the Simic Combine trying to plague the people with their false healing, and the time has come for a crusade.
Simic Combine: With the loss of Novejin and Momir Vig, the Combine is struggling to recover. It requires subjects to experiment upon, harvested from the ranks of the Gruul Clans. Furthermore, retribution must be had against the Golgari for their lack of cooperation with the late Momir Vig.
Azorius Senate: Leonos II, successor to the madman who had brought ruin to the Guildpact in a bid for absolute dominion, seeks to repair the damage he had inflicted. His plan involves curbing back the Boros Legion, and removing the last of House Dimir.
Orzhov Syndicate: Selesnya draws worshippers away from the Church of Deals, and they only existed to sustain the Guildpact. With the Guildpact broken, the Gruul Clans are no longer protected from Syndicate slavers. The time has come, the Ghost Council decrees, for a great culling to begin.
House Dimir: Szadek, Lord of Secrets, decreed that the angels must become extinct, and so the Boros must be eliminated. However, equally important is the annihilation of the Golgari: Savra knew where Duskmantle was, and may have told others where it was.

You like?

Well, at first I was going to go on about how it's not really balanced, but you know what? Screw that. I've been trying to convince Alarra to let me inject some individuality into the guilds, and she's already signed off on this plan. So full speed ahead! I say OK! Let's see what happens…
Since I'm going to be gone Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, I'll start the game on sunday. Sorry for the delay, but I'd like to be around when the game starts.

[Wreckingrocc]

Excellent, Festy. Looking forward to it.

Stronghold, I believe it was. And yeah, they did have some awesome ones, like flying sliver and muscle sliver. It also had Crytalline sliver, which made your slivers untargetable, and talon sliver, which gave first strike. But Time Spiral had some GREAT slivers, unless you weren't paying attention. Like, they color-shifted Muscle Sliver into Sinew sliver (1/1 for two, all slivers get +1/+1), which is awesome value. Pulmonic sliver ( 3/3 for five, all sliver get flying and go to the top of your library instead of your graveyard when they're killed), Necrotic sliver (2/2 for 3, pay 3 and sac a sliver to destroy target permanent), gemhide sliver (1/1 for two, all slivers could tap to produce one mana of any color), and of, course, Venemous sliver, my favorite, which was 1/1 for one green and gave all sliver poisonous 1. Which STACKED. so you could kill someone on turn three with three 1/1 creatures. (Poisonous was where you if you got 10 poison counters your lost, remember?)

Yeah, I had a crystalline sliver, 4 muscles, two flying, two essence, a magma, an overlord... Hell, I even had a queen. Soul Foundry is amazing with pretty much any sliver, and it's a good way to get the overlord or queen out without needing every color. Ward Sliver was by far my favorite on SF, though... Having protection from whatever you want is amazing... They essentially can't be blocked... I can see why they banned slivers after TS, though. Such a pity.... I never bought any TS, and now nobody wants to play my sliver deck because they got banned in tournaments.