Arena Tournament, Round 49: Kor and MitS vs Greenscale and Dusker

[Talic]

Any with LOS to Greenscales:

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Free: 5 foot step south into K20.

Now, if you still have LOS to me, look in here:

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Standard: Activate Feather token: Whip - Do not release it to dance yet. (it is currently a huge leather whip with the dancing quality*, and will remain for 1 hour)
Move: Draw Potion of Enlarge Person.

Done.

Stats:

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Location: K20
AC: 15 (+3 Armor, +2 Dex)
In Hand: Guisarme (gauntlet on one hand)
Saves: Fort: 7, Ref: 2, Will: -2
Abilities: Rage 1/1 (unused)
Effects active: Feather Token (whip) active. 1/600.

*Relevant Text of Feather Token-Whip:

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A token that forms into a huge leather whip and wields itself against any opponent desired just like a dancing weapon. The weapon has a +10 base attack bonus, does 1d6+1 points of damage, has a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, and a makes a free grapple attack (with a +15 attack bonus) if it hits. The whip lasts no longer than 1 hour.

Relevant Text of Dancing Weapon:

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As a standard action, a dancing weapon can be loosed to attack on its own. It fights for 4 rounds using the base attack bonus of the one who loosed it and then drops. While dancing, it cannot make attacks of opportunity, and the person who activated it is not considered armed with the weapon. In all other respects, it is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items. While dancing, it takes up the same space as the activating character and can attack adjacent foes (weapons with reach can attack opponents up to 10 feet away). The dancing weapon accompanies the person who activated it everywhere, whether she moves by physical or magical means. If the wielder who loosed it has an unoccupied hand, she can grasp it while it is attacking on its own as a free action; when so retrieved the weapon can’t dance (attack on its own) again for 4 rounds.

So, it's a Huge whip. It has a 1 hour duration. Per the specific text of the whip, it uses a +10 Base attack bonus instead of mine, and has a +1 enhancement bonus to hit. It deals 1d6+1 damage per hit, and when it hits an enemy, can make a free grapple attack (+15 attack bonus for that grapple check, which places it at +10 base, +1 str (based on weapon damage), +4 size (huge weapons are size category large)).

I am not considered armed with it, however, I am considered to be wielding it for any effect that targets items. It can dance just as a dancing weapon (up to 4 rounds, once grabbed, cannot dance for 4 rounds), and while dancing is in my space**. As a Huge Weapon, while dancing it has a reach of 45 feet (weapon reach is not an effect which targets an item). Per text of dancing weapon (and whip) it cannot make attacks of opportunity, though it does threaten. While not dancing, I cannot use it effectively as a weapon (unless I gain a size category, in which case, I can wield it with 30 foot reach and a -4 to attack).

** Except where another mechanic would move it, such as the free grapple on a successful hit.

[Psionic Dog]

Ok, just a quick LoS check to keep this moving. Thank's to Chilli for listing locations for the other refs.

@Refs, Kor, and Greenscale Never mind.

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Unless objected to I'll be intruding improved cover when I drop in. Improved cover shall be issued whenever the LoS lines are so tight as to come down almost to line thickness and who's drawing them.

Further I'll adhoc rule (unless protested) that only the location of a character with improved cover can be seen, not what they are doing.

Characters with improved cover have double modifiers: +8AC, +4ref save, and +10 hide.

Kor

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You see Greenscale step back to K20 where he activates a feather-token whip and a draws a potion.

You both have cover relative to each other.

MitS is still in B1.

MitS

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You see Kor in A5.

Greenscales

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You can still see Kor in A5, and there is still cover between the two of you.

[Talic]

@Refs, Kor:

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Both adhoc rules are not supported by RAW. I'd prefer they be left out. As long as LOS as established, all characters should have knowledge of anything they would normally get.

There are few effects which grant improved cover (swimming targets have it vs landbound targets, for example), but when to grant it otherwise is too much a matter of opinion to adhoc rule it, and for the sake of impartiality, should likely be left out.

[Psionic Dog]

@Kor, Greenscale, High-Refs Nevermind.

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My apologizes, I had intended the ruling to simplify the matter, not complicate it.

Explanation
Since RAW does allow improved cover to exist, and since this would have been described as 3/4 cover or even 5/6 cover under 3.0 rules I thought a "when in doubt go improved" would be acceptable.

My Logic (spoilered for space)

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If we assume that Greenscale is at +10ft elevetion still, then LoS clearly exists.

Since Greenscale is standing on a stair square LoS is subjective already and depends on how thick the lines are and at what elevation the LoS ref decides to use. I used +7.5ft (3/4 of 10) and there was technically LoS, but another ref might have used +5ft where there would not be LoS.



If there was only one ref calling, then (at least within the match) everything is subjectively consistent, but in this match there have been several refs who use different LoS methods for different results.

I thus attempted to 'Split the Difference' and rule Improved Cover.

If the Refs conclude that Improved Cover in not an option unless specifically specified in raw, then I would declare this: [LoS with Cover]

Match is Paused for a High Ref consultation.


EDIT
The Raw is stupid.
ALL Honor the RAW!

After a brief meditation on the founding principles of the Arena everything suddenly makes perfect sense. The original LoS update has been edited and revised.

Play on!

[Talic]

@Kor, Refs: Nevermind

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While I agree the ruling has common sense, it's not RAW. RAW does not establish a method for ruling Improved cover. Instead, it gives a few specific instances in spells and terrain that establish them.

In the absence of a SRD rule that grants improved cover, I merely wish to keep that status quo.

EDIT: Per above ref reversal, play is amended and free to continue.

[Talic]

Posting a courtesy post to alert my opponents that the match has resumed (as the hold was taken off by an edit, it may not show up as having any activity in a subscription log).

[Morbius]

I believe it's Bayar now right?

[Talic]

Barring a crazy readied action or delayed initiative, yes.

[Psionic Dog]

High Ref PsiDog


DQ #2 Issued on Kor!

Morbius, your MitS is now up.

[Morbius]

Sorry, I've been sick but I should post later if I am feeling better

[Talic]

Fair nuff. Lemme know when you're feeling well.

[Morbius]

Monster in the Shadows(with wings)tm 1st to act - round 3

Refs

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Mits stays in B1.
Standard action to ready an action to throw a tanglefoot bag when Greenscales is 5 feet away from being able to hit with whatever weapon he has .

Done

Mits’ Stats (for refs)

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Location: B1
HP: 20/20
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 17, Touch 13, Flat-footed 16
Saves: Fortitude +5, Reflex +4, Will -2
Attacks: +9 MW greatsword (2D6+9), +3 10xjavelins (1d6+6), +3 29xsling (1d4+6), +3 2xtanglefoot bags
Held/worn: 3/3brute gauntlets, 2x potion of CLW, potion of protection from good, potion of faith healing
Effects: concealment, shield of faith 8/10
Reactive rolls:
listen - (1d20-3)[0]
spot - (1d20-3)[17]

[Talic]

My Actions: (2nd to act, round 3)

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Move: Put up potion.
Move: from K20 to G22 (by way of L21), Drawing Guisarme as I move (drawing a weapon can be done as part of a move, if you have a BAB of +1 or higher.)

Done.

Stats:

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Location: G22
AC: 15 (+3 Armor, +2 Dex)
In Hand: Huge Whip, Guisarme (gauntlet on one hand) - both items held in 1 hand
Saves: Fort: 7, Ref: 2, Will: -2
Abilities: Rage 1/1 (unused)
Effects active: Feather Token (whip) active. 2/600.

Relevant text of Feather Token:

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A token that forms into a huge leather whip and wields itself against any opponent desired just like a dancing weapon. The weapon has a +10 base attack bonus, does 1d6+1 points of damage, has a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, and a makes a free grapple attack (with a +15 attack bonus) if it hits. The whip lasts no longer than 1 hour.

Relevant text of Dancing Weapon:

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As a standard action, a dancing weapon can be loosed to attack on its own. It fights for 4 rounds using the base attack bonus of the one who loosed it and then drops. While dancing, it cannot make attacks of opportunity, and the person who activated it is not considered armed with the weapon. In all other respects, it is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items. While dancing, it takes up the same space as the activating character and can attack adjacent foes (weapons with reach can attack opponents up to 10 feet away). The dancing weapon accompanies the person who activated it everywhere, whether she moves by physical or magical means. If the wielder who loosed it has an unoccupied hand, she can grasp it while it is attacking on its own as a free action; when so retrieved the weapon can’t dance (attack on its own) again for 4 rounds.

So, it's a Huge whip. It has a 1 hour duration. Per the specific text of the whip, it uses a +10 Base attack bonus instead of mine, and has a +1 enhancement bonus to hit. It deals 1d6+1 damage per hit, and when it hits an enemy, can make a free grapple attack (+15 attack bonus for that grapple check, which places it at +10 base, +1 str (based on weapon damage), +4 size (huge weapons are size category large)).

I am not considered armed with it, however, I am considered to be wielding it for any effect that targets items. It can dance just as a dancing weapon (up to 4 rounds, once grabbed, cannot dance for 4 rounds), and while dancing is in my space**. As a Huge Weapon, while dancing it has a reach of 45 feet (weapon reach is not an effect which targets an item). Per text of dancing weapon (and whip) it cannot make attacks of opportunity, though it does threaten. While not dancing, I cannot use it effectively as a weapon (unless I gain a size category, in which case, I can wield it with 30 foot reach and a -4 to attack).

** Except where another mechanic would move it, such as the free grapple on a successful hit.

[Psionic Dog]

HighRef PsiDog

LoS Check

Ref Notes

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My Lucky Happy Day. They didn't have Los before and have only moved apart. No attacks worries over the whip, and the only person who needs a listen check (MitS) has already rolled (and failed).

I wish all LoS checks were this easy.

MitS(ww)

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No LoS

Greenscale

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No LoS

[Morbius]

rant(not for you talic, well it's about you but you can't read it yet)

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Well, am I way underprepared to face Talic alone, had I know this it would be different items, and manuevers... heck Charging minotaur is nearly useless against him and counter-charge may do more harm than good, I wish I had sudden leap and distracting ember instead...well, he beats Mits at tripping and grappling, but Mits beats him at damage...(I think), I actually have about 50%+ chance for a 1 hit KO if I hit him good..., that is if I get past his crazy reach and even crazier readied actions that will trip, grapple and the hell with Mits... hum but after a lot of thinking... but after thinking for a couple of hours maybe there are still a couple of tricks that I can use... or it may be a more direct approach in the end...

Monster in the Shadows(with wings)tm 1st to act - round 4

Refs

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Mits moves to A9.(that reactivates the concealment).
If no LOS: standard action to ready an action to throw a tanglefoot bag when Greenscales is 5 feet away from being able to hit with whatever weapon he wields.
[roll=MS]1d20-1[roll/]

Oh and for the record I will use counter charge if he does charge me

Done

Mits’ Stats (for refs)

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Location: A9
HP: 20/20
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 17, Touch 13, Flat-footed 16
Saves: Fortitude +5, Reflex +4, Will -2
Attacks: +9 MW greatsword (2D6+9), +3 10xjavelins (1d6+6), +3 29xsling (1d4+6), +3 2xtanglefoot bags
Held/worn: 3/3brute gauntlets, 2x potion of CLW, potion of protection from good, potion of faith healing
Effects: concealment, shield of faith 7/10
Reactive rolls:
listen - (1d20-3)[1]
spot - (1d20-3)[16]

[Talic]

I warrant Rants now? Woo! I will rant too! (no peeky!)

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Just kidding, he's an all around good guy. I think I have an advantage here... So he's gonna be a ready action monkey, and wait for me to close, and then do something. If I have reach, that'll keep him from attacking. He can conceal, meh, not much to do against that but hope... God, he hits hard. I've got more reliable damage though. Let's see how this works. Time to hunt for getting LOS.

My Turn:

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Dependant on no LOS. If LOS established, actions will change.

Move: from G22 to D14 (50 ft)
Standard: Release whip to dance. (1/4)
Free: Grip Guisarme in 2 hands.

Done, depending on LOS.

Stats:

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Location: G22
AC: 15 (+3 Armor, +2 Dex)
In Hand: Huge Whip, Guisarme (gauntlet on one hand) - both items held in 1 hand
Saves: Fort: 7, Ref: 2, Will: -2
Abilities: Rage 1/1 (unused)
Effects active: Feather Token (whip) active. 2/600.

Relevant text of Feather Token:

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A token that forms into a huge leather whip and wields itself against any opponent desired just like a dancing weapon. The weapon has a +10 base attack bonus, does 1d6+1 points of damage, has a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls, and a makes a free grapple attack (with a +15 attack bonus) if it hits. The whip lasts no longer than 1 hour.

Relevant text of Dancing Weapon:

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As a standard action, a dancing weapon can be loosed to attack on its own. It fights for 4 rounds using the base attack bonus of the one who loosed it and then drops. While dancing, it cannot make attacks of opportunity, and the person who activated it is not considered armed with the weapon. In all other respects, it is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items. While dancing, it takes up the same space as the activating character and can attack adjacent foes (weapons with reach can attack opponents up to 10 feet away). The dancing weapon accompanies the person who activated it everywhere, whether she moves by physical or magical means. If the wielder who loosed it has an unoccupied hand, she can grasp it while it is attacking on its own as a free action; when so retrieved the weapon can’t dance (attack on its own) again for 4 rounds.

So, it's a Huge whip. It has a 1 hour duration. Per the specific text of the whip, it uses a +10 Base attack bonus instead of mine, and has a +1 enhancement bonus to hit. It deals 1d6+1 damage per hit, and when it hits an enemy, can make a free grapple attack (+15 attack bonus for that grapple check, which places it at +10 base, +1 str (based on weapon damage), +4 size (huge weapons are size category large)).

I am not considered armed with it, however, I am considered to be wielding it for any effect that targets items. It can dance just as a dancing weapon (up to 4 rounds, once grabbed, cannot dance for 4 rounds), and while dancing is in my space**. As a Huge Weapon, while dancing it has a reach of 45 feet (weapon reach is not an effect which targets an item). Per text of dancing weapon (and whip) it cannot make attacks of opportunity, though it does threaten. While not dancing, I cannot use it effectively as a weapon (unless I gain a size category, in which case, I can wield it with 30 foot reach and a -4 to attack).

** Except where another mechanic would move it, such as the free grapple on a successful hit.

[/QUOTE]

[Psionic Dog]

We get rants?

Ok, Ref Only Rant

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I was hoping someone else would reconcile this round. I really was. And, for any other match I'd keep waiting for someone else. In fact, I'm still hoping someone will appear to handle this whip monstrosity.

Ok: We have Greenscale carrying (but not welding) a huge magical whip.

The distinction is important since Mits has a readied action

when Greenscales is 5 feet away from being able to hit with whatever weapon he wields.

That is, if the whip really has a reach of 45 ft.


If the whip does have a reach of 45 ft then GS is suddenly standing 15 ft inside the whip range and 10 ft outside of glave range of Mits, neither of which equates his 5 ft outside of reach stipulation.

And a quick question for Talic and other Refs:

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How, exactly, do you figure this whip has a reach of 45 ft?

Yes, I realize a huge creature welding a whip has a 45 ft reach.

However, I can't think of anything in Raw the even suggests a smaller creature welding the oversized weapon has the same reach, dancing or not. In fact, one could argue that by raw all dancing weapons are limited to adjacent (for non reach) or up to 10ft for reach.

For that matter, it seems that if we are real sticky on RAW then, dancing or not, only a large or larger creature could even use the feather token whip since no exceptions are listed to the oversized weapon limitations.

[Morbius]

Technicaly I am an ref but I guess I can't read that

[Talic]

@Psionic:

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I cannot wield the whip. It's 2 size categories too large for me to wield. Right now it's being held, not wielded. Same as my polearm. It's a 2 handed weapon, being held 1 handed.

That said, when dancing, I am not wielding it. It is wielding itself.

As a standard action, a dancing weapon can be loosed to attack on its own. It fights for 4 rounds using the base attack bonus of the one who loosed it and then drops. While dancing, it cannot make attacks of opportunity, and the person who activated it is not considered armed with the weapon. In all other respects, it is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items.

A token that forms into a huge leather whip and wields itself against any opponent desired just like a dancing weapon.

It is considered wielded by me for all maneuvers and effects which target items. If Reach were a maneuver or an effect which targeted items, then yes, it would have a reach of 15 feet while dancing. (Disarm would be a good example of an application of this, as would spells which target items.) Similarly, if I was holding it and drank a potion of enlarge, it would grow to gargantuan. As soon as I released it to dance, however, it would return to Huge, because the enlarge isn't targeting the item.

However, it has no wielder while dancing. It wields itself. So it doesn't matter whether I'm a halfling or a cloud giant. My personal size is irrelevant.

Now, if your interpretation is that while dancing, it still has the reach of a standard whip, and the additional size is only to provide it grapple modifiers, per the text of the feather token, then while dancing, it would have a 15 foot reach. However, either way, a medium creature cannot wield a huge weapon, so I'll be unable to use it unless it's dancing. But I believe I interpreted the two effects (dancing weapons in general and the feather token's specific changes to that) at closely as possible to RAW. Whether I can wield a weapon has no impact on whether I can activate its abilities. For example, I can use the Wish in a Luck Blade, regardless of whether I'm able to pick it up. Dancing is a similar ability.

That said, there is some RAW support for the 15 foot interpretation, as well. Dancing weapons state that they can attack adjacent foes, and weapons with reach can attack foes up to 10 feet away. Whips have exceptional reach (15 feet), standard. It could be ruled that all dancing weapons, regardless of size, have this reach limitation. Thus, a Huge creature wielding a Huge dancing weapon who lets it dance would have a weapon with 5-10-15 feet, based on the reach of the weapon.

Note, in all above arguments against it, the size of the character is irrelevant. Either the weapon wields itself, and has a reach commensurate with its size, or the weapon wields itself and has a reach identical to a medium sized weapon of its type, regardless of size. Either way, I will not be wielding the weapon, so the size difference between the whip and myself is irrelevant.

Now, it's also possible to interpret the feather token as wielding itself at all times. I chose, however, to go with a more narrow interpretation (just like a dancing weapon), and apply the dancing weapon's duration on dancing, and time delays between dancing.

If the size of a weapon is ruled to be irrelevant to its reach while it's wielding itself, dancing, it will have a 15 foot reach, and still be unwieldable by medium creatures while not dancing. My interpretation is that the whip is huge. It's wielding itself. Something huge wielding a huge weapon = reach as standard for a huge weapon.

Either way, I'm leaving myself open with my reach if he's using a reach weapon, and has a readied action to close with me. I'm not capable of an attack with any of the weapons I'm holding while moving, and as such am limited to my standard unarmed strike. Provided he doesn't have such a readied action, I fully intend to have full reach when my turn ends.

I can only assume the reluctance in ruling combined with the pointed questions about the whip 2 turns after I originally posted it means that it matters now, and hence, LOS is established. As I can infer this, I won't ask for a rewind to amend actions, but I will request to be able to modify any movement from the point LOS is established onward, as is standard in the arena.

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo -Yes, I'm still alive.

@Refs

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From my understanding of the RAW, the feather token is legitamitly wielded by Greenscales, so that's not the problem.
The RAW do not specify the reach of the feather token as being different from normal, so I'm forced to go back to the definition of reach, which is as a multiplier of the creature's own natural reach. A medium creature wielding a large longspear has the same reach as a medium creature wielding a medium longspear. The Whip, although larger than normal, still has the same reach as a whip wielding by a creature of Greenscales current size.

[Talic]

@Kyeudo, Refs:

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Assuming the above is having to do with the feather token, do I have access to Kyeudo's spoiler?

[Psionic Dog]

The GM Ref has spoken, and spoken well.


GreenScale: Includes Edits inside.

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You may read Kyeudo's spoiler.

A summery of the ruling: Feather Tokens are legal items that may be used, but use the reach of the welder, 15 ft.

Now the actually LoS:
EDIT: My deepest apologizes on the LoS. I could have sworn your action said "Dependent on LoS established, will amend if no LoS"

When you Reach F22 you see MitS(ww) in A9. He looks lightly shrouded in clinging shadow and appears somewhat indistinct. Aka: has concealment.

MitS(ww) has an action readied.

EDIT: Debate Continues

[Talic]

@Refs, Kyeudo:

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Only weapons may be wielded. The token is not a weapon, thus may not be wielded. When activated, it becomes a whip, which may be wielded. However, according to RAW:

Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

This is a Huge Whip. I am a Medium creature. It is a 1 handed melee weapon. As there are two size categories difference, it would be changed to a two handed weapon, and then up another category. By this, I cannot wield a whip two sizes larger than me.

That doesn't mean that I cannot activate it, however. There is no requirement by RAW that I must wield a weapon to use it. Indeed, where requirements exist at all for magic item activation, they simply require holding it, not being able to bring it to bear as a weapon.

When this happens, per RAW text the weapon wields itself. By the stated text of the item, I am not wielding it when it dances.

What is the reach of a huge weapon that is wielding itself, by RAW? I accept that while not dancing, the weapon is a very, very large... well, waste of space. But while dancing, I am not wielding it. My size is irrelevant. By RAW, the wielder of the whip is the Whip. If I were considered the wielder, it wouldn't work at all, by previously cited text on inappropriately sized weapons. Since I must assume that the items printed in the SRD are designed primarily for use by medium sized creatures, that interpretation is not only directly against the RAW for the item, but also highly counterintuitive.

Now, an argument could be made that the specific text of dancing weapons would indicate a 15 foot reach, regardless of weapon size, while dancing. However, while dancing, the weapon is still wielding itself.

FURTHER, my actions were specifically stated as being contingent upon no LOS, and if LOS was established, I would amend them. By my calculations, LOS should have been established as I entered F22. This should mean that my turn should continue from that point.

Player hold on match, pending high ref/Kyeudo review.

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

@Talic,Refs

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With a dancing weapon, it does the wielding, but your stats still are used for determining things like Strength to damage, AC, and such. This includes your reach. The whip's reach is the same as if you were the one wielding it, which for a medium creature is the 15 feet.

[Talic]

Fair nuff. Match resumes, I take it, with LOS established between my opponent in A9, and myself in F22.

Provided this is correct, I need one more piece of information. What items are in MitS:ww's hands?

Currently, I'm hefting a tree-trunk of a whip over one shoulder, and holding a Guisarme one-handed in the other arm.

[Morbius]

I have a loaded sling on one hand and a bag of something on the other, but wait a minute, did I beat your hide check this turn or what? because I was supposed to have LOS to F22 at the start of my turn... Nevermind I guess we are rewinding to your turn...

[Talic]

Ok, so ranged weapon and bag. No greatsword, at least.

Continue my move action to D18.
Ready an action:

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Move if my opponent does performs any action that would provoke an attack of opportunity.

Intent:

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is to move adjacent to him. Due to timing of readied actions, I'll arrive beside him immediately before the triggering action, and thus he'll provoke an AoO from me. This is an attempt to get off an attack without the benefit of his concealment.

Done.

Stats:

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Location: D18, Readied action.
AC: 15 (+3 Armor, +2 Dex)
In Hand: Huge Whip, Guisarme (gauntlet on one hand) - both items held in 1 hand
Saves: Fort: 7, Ref: 2, Will: -2
Abilities: Rage 1/1 (unused)
Effects active: Feather Token (whip) active. 2/600.

Feather token:
So, it's a Huge whip. It has a 1 hour duration. Per the specific text of the whip, it uses a +10 Base attack bonus instead of mine, and has a +1 enhancement bonus to hit. It deals 1d6+1 damage per hit, and when it hits an enemy, can make a free grapple attack (+15 attack bonus for that grapple check, which places it at +10 base, +1 str (based on weapon damage), +4 size (huge weapons are size category large)).

While it dances, I am not considered armed with it, however, I am considered to be wielding it for any effect that targets items. It can dance just as a dancing weapon (up to 4 rounds, once grabbed, cannot dance for 4 rounds), and while dancing is in my space**. While dancing it has a reach of 15 feet (weapon reach is not an effect which targets an item). Per text of dancing weapon (and whip) it cannot make attacks of opportunity, though it does threaten. While not dancing, I cannot use it effectively as a weapon (unless I gain a size category, in which case, I can wield it with 30 foot reach and a -2 to attack for size, and another -4 for non-proficiency).

** Except where another mechanic would move it, such as the free grapple on a successful hit.

[Talic]

And yeah, we backed up to the point LOS was established, which, since I was only 5 feet east of there, was most of my turn.

EDIT: On the bright side, barring rules controversy, there shouldn't need to be much more ref involvement. One less step in the turn chain, woo.

[Talic]

Just posting to let my opponent know it's his turn. My turn is contained in post 87.

[Morbius]

What's the reach of that pretty little whip?