132 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 119

[SteveMB]

Finally, the warlords think that Ansom will survive on the wall long enough for them to make significant progress in breaching the wall... otherwise, they'd sit back and wait for the uncroaked army to decay, one imagines. Or is each turn that the RCC in the field so onerously expensive to each side that the higher casualties of moving now are offset by the wish to avoid waiting for that to happen?

We know that maintaining the alliance is a strain on the participating sides. This is about the turn that strain was supposed to have been relieved (by final victory over Stanley); the fact that it's still ongoing surely isn't helping matters for Ansom.

[hajo]

I don't disagree that Chalie doesn't have mathamancy equivalent to Parson's... why else would he want the magic item?

As a merc, he might be interested in eliminating possible competition - even if he already had such a device himself.

However, Charlie is likely shrewd enough

Exactly

[DevilDan]

We know that maintaining the alliance is a strain on the participating sides. This is about the turn that strain was supposed to have been relieved (by final victory over Stanley); the fact that it's still ongoing surely isn't helping matters for Ansom.

I was merely wondering which is more "expensive," waiting for the uncroaked to decay (assuming the RCC knows enough about croakamancy) or facing heavier losses by attacking now.

At this point, without adequate air and without control of the tunnels, the walls are the only avenue of attack. The "surround the entire city" plan is now out the window due to Ansom's impulsiveness, but this was the turn that was going to be spent solely on surrounding GK.

[headhoncho]

We know that maintaining the alliance is a strain on the participating sides. This is about the turn that strain was supposed to have been relieved (by final victory over Stanley); the fact that it's still ongoing surely isn't helping matters for Ansom.

Great memory, and great point, thanks!

[hajo]

My guess is that Wanda's instructions were only to try to get the Pliers (and retreat).

Taking Ansom prisoner would be a neat bonus

Also, nice battlegear on Wanda's part

[Fez]

I liked the strip, from the archon blowing Parson a razzbery to the charge of the Wanda brigade.

I'm curious if the uncroaked archon will still have her ranged damage abilities, which were pretty substantial when alive. She does still fly and glow, so its likely, and the pliers won't be much use against an energy bolt.

As for 'to cut a thread'. While it could be the thread of life, it could also be a pun that signifies she's going after his mount which is just a pile of threads, as a grounded Ansom will be much more vulnerable to essentially all of the GK forces.

[pendell]

Hmm ... I'm gonna go contrarian on you guys.

Wanda vs. combat monster Ansom + artifact bonus? No contest. Parson sent her up because she was the only thing that had even a prayer of victory, NOT because it was
likely to succeed.

My guess?

Ansom croaks Wanda. Here. Now.

When Wanda croaks, all the undead on the wall and everywhere else in GK also spontaneously shut down.

The Radish Army comes through the wall.

Parson and what few troops are left retreat to the dungeons for a last, valiant stand...

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hajo]

to truly win the Battle for Gobwin Knob, Parson has to win decisively. An eked out, barely won victory won't do, or else the RCC will just regroup and try again.

Or any small neighbour might come in to mop up the remains.

[fendrin]

If you want to read that into their statements -- which seem very simple and straightforward -- you are of course free to do that.

I don't get that impression at all, however. The simplest explanation in my opinion is that the RCC warlords are looking at the masses of undead and know that Ansom can "fall" (and maybe they could be referring to the loss of his carpet, although I'm guessing it's more likely they're talking about falling in battle) "at any moment." They're not qualifying it with the arrival of additional forces, they're looking at the situation as it stands right now. And they don't like the odds.

Experienced warlords heading up their nations' respective forces, and they don't like the odds. At all. "At any moment" connotes pretty darn fast.

I see your points, but it seems highly unlikely that they would 'forget' about the selective targeting he has from flying.

On the other hand, he just made himself vulnerable to any anti air-unit defenses GK may have. The warlords already know they are significant (whether in the form of magic or dwagons).

Which is more likely? That they forget a basic rule that they've known from the moment they came into existence, or that they are expecting more of what they have already seen?

[Balance]

I think I see the motive for Wanda to close to melee, and she doesn't need to be able to beat Ansom up close for it to be worthwhile. She's effectively neutralizing the Arkenpliers just by blocking, so Ansom can't turn them on the rest of her stack, which are more vulnerable to them. She can fight defensively, and still be effective, while her undead go on the offensive.

I've also been pondering the numbers in play here:

Wanda's Stack (assuming all three unipegataurs have a rider, but no bonus-granting warlords)
stack bonus-7
Wanda's leadership bonus-unknown, but "huge", according to Parson
Parson's Chief Warlord bonus-unkown, but possibly on par with Ansom's, now that he has the sword

Ansom's Stack
stack bonus-1 (Presumably a single-unit stack gets a point, since an 8-unit stack gets 8. It's possible that a stack must have at least two units to get a bonus, though.)
artifact bonus-unkown, but significant
Ansom's Warlord bonus

If Parson's leadership bonus cancels Ansom's, it leaves a numerical edge of

(Wanda's bonus + 6) - Arkenpliers artifact bonus

for Wanda's stack. Ansom's Combat and Hits stats are likely higher than Wanda's, assuming she hasn't cast any self-buffs, but she may have a substantial edge on bonuses. With the Arkenpliers' special effect neutralized, I think it likely that the Numbers favor Wanda slightly.

If she can hold Ansom's attention, I think she can win.

[headhoncho]

Which is more likely? That they forget a basic rule that they've known from the moment they came into existence, or that they are expecting more of what they have already seen?

This is why I mentioned the difference between good writing and great writing. It would be an easy thing to add even a short phrase that made your interpretation quite clear. But without that phrase, I really, really don't see it.

As it stands, however, I'm faced with what appears to be a vastly different view, of the same situation, by two sides who each really ought to know, or at least have a faint inkling.

That said, I can't wait to find out, and it's entirely possible the authors will pull off something that makes complete sense and is completely unexpected, that leaves me mystified and in awe. They've certainly done it before.

Right now, I'm guessing it's some function of the RCC warlords not understanding the true function and power of the arkenpliers, coupled with Parson recognizing the importance of the time that Ansom is buying the siege, to the extent that even if Ansom is croaked, the victory might be pyrrhic for Parson due to the overwhelming numbers (and remaining competent warlords, even if they might not be quite as good as Ansom) that the RCC still has.

That could work. It still leaves the difference of viewpoint somewhat jarring to me, but it would recede to a nit.

Thanks for the conversation, I've been enjoying it.

[fendrin]

I think I see the motive for Wanda to close to melee, and she doesn't need to be able to beat Ansom up close for it to be worthwhile. She's effectively neutralizing the Arkenpliers just by blocking, so Ansom can't turn them on the rest of her stack, which are more vulnerable to them. She can fight defensively, and still be effective, while her undead go on the offensive.

I've also been pondering the numbers in play here:

Wanda's Stack (assuming all three unipegataurs have a rider, but no bonus-granting warlords)
stack bonus-7
Wanda's leadership bonus-unknown, but "huge", according to Parson
Parson's Chief Warlord bonus-unkown, but possibly on par with Ansom's, now that he has the sword

Ansom's Stack
stack bonus-1 (Presumably a single-unit stack gets a point, since an 8-unit stack gets 8. It's possible that a stack must have at least two units to get a bonus, though.)
artifact bonus-unkown, but significant
Ansom's Warlord bonus

If Parson's leadership bonus cancels Ansom's, it leaves a numerical edge of

(Wanda's bonus + 6) - Arkenpliers artifact bonus

for Wanda's stack. Ansom's Combat and Hits stats are likely higher than Wanda's, assuming she hasn't cast any self-buffs, but she may have a substantial edge on bonuses. With the Arkenpliers' special effect neutralized, I think it likely that the Numbers favor Wanda slightly.

If she can hold Ansom's attention, I think she can win.

That's a good analysis.

I've been thinking, though, that the 'stack bonus' can't (just) increase per unit in stack (capped at 8).

If it was, then one stack of 16 would be:

• 16 units each with +8 stack bonus

and those same stack split into two stacks would be:

• 16 units each with +8 stack bonus

So why bother splitting the stack? Especially when some bonuses (like Wanda's bonus to uncroaked) apply on a per-stack basis.

So I figure that the stack bonus only applies to 8 units in the stack.
Or maybe it is capped at +8 but is distributed amongst all units (so beyond 8 there is effectively no bonus).

For that matter, the stack bonus may not be a 1-to-1 with number of units, or even a linear progression.

All the klog says about the stack bonus is:

...groups of units get a stack bonus that maxes at 8, so you see a lot of 8-man formations.

Not much to work with there, but it implies that two stacks of 8 is a better arrangement than one stack of 16.

[DevilDan]

Experienced warlords heading up their nations' respective forces, and they don't like the odds. At all. "At any moment" connotes pretty darn fast.

They don't like his odds, because he is still a single unit (despite being a powerful warlord with flight and an artifact that pulverizes uncroaked) simply because those arrows will eventually score major hits or because he will fall to some other attack. But they are willing to exploit the chance to assault the wall now that Ansom is holding back the defensive forces.

As for who the other unipegataur riders are, I guess that we've come upon some compelling reasons why they could be Dora and Webinar, including the psychological effect on Ansom. Wanda's bonuses could well make even rudimentarily uncroaked warlords more powerful than the knights. Also, we don't know that Wanda didn't have enough juice at the end of the last turn to "upgrade" Webinar and Dora to the level of the remaining GK undead warlords.

[headhoncho]

They don't like his odds, because he is still a single unit (despite being a powerful warlord with flight and an artifact that pulverizes uncroaked) simply because those arrows will eventually score major hits or because he will fall to some other attack. But they are willing to exploit the chance to assault the wall now that Ansom is holding back the defensive forces.

Sure. I don't think I'm saying anything different.

As for who the other unipegataur riders are, I guess that we've come upon some compelling reasons why they could be Dora and Webinar, including the psychological effect on Ansom. Wanda's bonuses could well make even rudimentarily uncroaked warlords more powerful than the knights. Also, we don't know that Wanda didn't have enough juice at the end of the last turn to "upgrade" Webinar and Dora to the level of the remaining GK undead warlords.

I agree, it's Dora and Webinar. Another interesting point is that based on my recollection of the wording of the klog, Wanda's bonus to undead for being a Croakamancer is not necessarily identical to the warlord bonus. So if they stack, so much the better, and all the more reason (in addition to the psychological benefit) to bring D&W.

[Dacia Brabant]

This is why I mentioned the difference between good writing and great writing. It would be an easy thing to add even a short phrase that made your interpretation quite clear. But without that phrase, I really, really don't see it.

As it stands, however, I'm faced with what appears to be a vastly different view, of the same situation, by two sides who each really ought to know, or at least have a faint inkling.

That said, I can't wait to find out, and it's entirely possible the authors will pull off something that makes complete sense and is completely unexpected, that leaves me mystified and in awe. They've certainly done it before.

Right now, I'm guessing it's some function of the RCC warlords not understanding the true function and power of the arkenpliers, coupled with Parson recognizing the importance of the time that Ansom is buying the siege, to the extent that even if Ansom is croaked, the victory might be pyrrhic for Parson due to the overwhelming numbers (and remaining competent warlords, even if they might not be quite as good as Ansom) that the RCC still has.

That could work. It still leaves the difference of viewpoint somewhat jarring to me, but it would recede to a nit.

Thanks for the conversation, I've been enjoying it.

I see what you're saying, you're right that the cause of the difference in their perceptions is unstated. I think though when viewing the two pages together, 131 and 132, it's more clear that the threat to Ansom isn't just what's on the walls but whatever's behind them. Flying up there exposed him to just about everything that GK has at its disposal--uncroaked, archers, fliers and the uber-caster who just created all those zombies (not to mention set off that huge explosion).

Ansom may be strong, even strong enough to cut a swath through the uncroaked, but could he realistically invade GK by himself? No, of course not, and Parson is acting to make sure of that, which I think we're going to see really soon (finally! been waiting for Wanda vs Ansom forever!). That "fall at any moment" phrase may just be correct.

[Eugenitor]

When Wanda gets to the same tactical area as Ansom, do all the units already attacking him automatically join (or can be considered to be part of) her stack?

And I find it very interesting that Charlie can't grab the pliers, but can kill anything in the air he wants. Why is that?

[Occasional Sage]

When Wanda gets to the same tactical area as Ansom, do all the units already attacking him automatically join (or can be considered to be part of) her stack?

And I find it very interesting that Charlie can't grab the pliers, but can kill anything in the air he wants. Why is that?

I'd assume because he hasn't been hired by either side. It's not (probably) by-the-rules-he-can't, but more of a his-future-reputation-prevents-him prohibition.

[fractal]

When Wanda gets to the same tactical area as Ansom, do all the units already attacking him automatically join (or can be considered to be part of) her stack?

And I find it very interesting that Charlie can't grab the pliers, but can kill anything in the air he wants. Why is that?

That one is easy. The 'pliers are held by Ansom on the Wall, the Archons are flying in the Airspace. If Charlie wanted to attack Ansom, he would have to move his units into the Wall zone, where they would potentially engage most of Gobwin Knob.

[DevilDan]

I agree with Occasional Sage: Charlie doesn't want to harm his reputation by switching sides in this conflict. Also, even if Parson isn't successful, Ansom will be weaker after further attacks.

[Balance]

So why bother splitting the stack? Especially when some bonuses (like Wanda's bonus to uncroaked) apply on a per-stack basis.
[snip]

Not much to work with there, but it implies that two stacks of 8 is a better arrangement than one stack of 16.

True, but the reason may not necessarily have to do with the raw numbers. It could be more a matter of flexibility--two stacks of 8 could be ordered to do two separate things, while one stack of 16 would only follow one set of orders. Conversely, if you order the two stacks of 8 to attack the same target, you get the same effect as if the stacks were merged.

There might also be targeting concerns related to casters. Some offensive spells might target a single stack--a Thinkamancer might have a spell that confuses a stack, for instance, causing them to attack their allies. By splitting them up, you limit the effect to a smaller group, mitigating the damage.

Alternatively, it could just be because Erfworlders generally suffer from a critical lack of imagination. "Oh, the stack bonus stops at 8. No point in adding any more there."

[valce]

So is the implication that the undead on the walls are powerless to hurt Ansom?

If so, how in the world is it that the RCC thought he was going to be toast in a matter of moments?

Thematically, the only thing that has provided me with the slightest heartburn for this awesome webcomic is the occasional discrepancy between (at times explicitly stated) expectations, and result. For example, dwagons are supposed to be awesome, but they've seemed underwhelming. The battle at the chokepoint, even with Caesar's unexpected arrival, was supposed to be exceedingly tight AT BEST for Transylvito, with Stanley perhaps having the advantage, and yet Stanley only barely escaped with six dwagons (although this has a caveat, if the Transylvito forces come out close to demolished, I'll feel a lot better). Ansom wasn't supposed to last for more than a few moments against the wall undead alone, and now Wanda seems like Parson's only hope.

Not sure I get it.

Other than that, I loved this comic. I can't wait for the next one. Wanda vs. Ansom has been one of the things I've been really waiting for!

I assumed RCC thought Ansom would be toast not because of the undead, but because they know Parson must have some sort of anti-air...

[valce]

Also, has anybody in Erf actually SEEN Charlie? Know what he looks like?

Seems to me if the only communication he has with people is by thinkamancy, and with a powerful thinkamancy artifact, he could look like whatever he wanted.

Could Charlie already be in Gobwin Knob?

-V

[SteveMB]

I assumed RCC thought Ansom would be toast not because of the undead, but because they know Parson must have some sort of anti-air...

Not knowing that the Erf-shattering kaboom earlier was practically all of GK's air defenses being expended, they might well expect similar firepower to be brought to bear on Ansom.

[fractal]

Also, has anybody in Erf actually SEEN Charlie? Know what he looks like?

Seems to me if the only communication he has with people is by thinkamancy, and with a powerful thinkamancy artifact, he could look like whatever he wanted.

Could Charlie already be in Gobwin Knob?

-V

So, Charlie is an Archon? Maybe the "Queen" Archon, like a hive of bees?

[Lamech]

True, but the reason may not necessarily have to do with the raw numbers. It could be more a matter of flexibility--two stacks of 8 could be ordered to do two separate things, while one stack of 16 would only follow one set of orders. Conversely, if you order the two stacks of 8 to attack the same target, you get the same effect as if the stacks were merged.

There might also be targeting concerns related to casters. Some offensive spells might target a single stack--a Thinkamancer might have a spell that confuses a stack, for instance, causing them to attack their allies. By splitting them up, you limit the effect to a smaller group, mitigating the damage.

This actually makes a lot of sense. I would also like to point out two stacks could surround one enemy stack and hit them from two sides...

I also agree with Steve, the warlords on the ground probably think Ansom is about to be turned into a puff of ash, by some sort of defense. They may even believe the defenses are an repeatable move...

[headhoncho]

Not knowing that the Erf-shattering kaboom earlier was practically all of GK's air defenses being expended, they might well expect similar firepower to be brought to bear on Ansom.

While I suppose that is technically a possibility, look at panel 4 of 118/131 again. They're staring up at a tiny Ansom being shot at by a swarm of arrows. And they're saying he's mad, and that they will see his body fall at any moment.

I think we've had an interesting discussion, but come on. Looking at that panel, I cannot be the only one who is interpreting the plain meaning of the art and the words the way that I am. Sometimes I feel like people are grasping just to find any interpretation that supports the authors.

All it would have taken is ONE PHRASE to clarify the theories you're floating (Parson holding something in reserve, another air defense spell even though I can't imagine that nukes like Wanda set off are cheap, and by the way if it was another nuke, they wouldn't have any time at all to get the siege in line, Parson could just set it off right away, versus multiple arrows eventually taking Ansom down, etc.), instead of having to guess. And again, I know that the next strip might explain everything.

But I like to think I can read and view as well as the next person, and I can't imagine I'm the only one thinking this way or being surprised at the discrepancy between the two sides' viewpoints.

EDIT: OK, I found two or three comments in the thread for the last strip that also seem to think Ansom would get Zerg Swarmed or overwhelmed in a similar fashion, so I feel better now.

[DevilDan]

Lest we forget, "at any moment" is not exactly the same as "immediately."

Not knowing that the Erf-shattering kaboom earlier was practically all of GK's air defenses being expended, they might well expect similar firepower to be brought to bear on Ansom.

Who knows how long it takes to set up "new" defenses anyway?

[headhoncho]

Lest we forget, "at any moment" is not exactly the same as "immediately."

Sure. But the connotation is clearly "very, very soon."

[the_tick_rules]

so wanda has to sing to fight better to?

[teratorn]

They seem to be fairly effective on dwagons, and in any case they give a substantial artifact bonus.

We don't know how many "rounds" that dwagon lasted, he may have been able to inflict some damage. With undead, even warlords turn to dust as soon as they are touched. Assuming the flier always gets the initiative Ansom didn't lose hitpoints unless hit by arrows.