Batman's Bane: The Joker

[Graymayre]

I didn't read the replies, so here's hoping someone didn't already answer this.

"The Joker" should implement the leadership feat.

Using the lackeys, he can create a net of control around many of the situations he may create. Not to mention, it would net him a steady flow of income through which he can commit his nefarious (or righteous) deeds.

[Yukitsu]

Yes it does, though if you wanted to get picky then it's not like the key couldn't be done either. And didn't you notice that I said AMF? Have the Field such that the key is in it but the door isn't. Batman picks it up, moves out of the Field, dies.

He isn't accepting it or picking it up when exiting the field. He has already picked it up and accepted it when the powers of the spell were null. If it's already in his hand when he leaves, the spell has no affect, rules as written, precisely to prevent that sort of nonsense.

[magic9mushroom]

A Magic Aura will work, but you still have the problem of finding the wizard's true name (assuming it isn't "Yes" or "No", which are the sorts of questions Commune is limited to), ensuring that the wizard picks up the object in question, and so on.

Also! I have a question. Is trapping a caster with a Trap the Soul spell a magical effect that would impede his movement? That is, can he walk or teleport out of the gem you put him in? I assure you, I ask this in all seriousness. What? Why? Oh, no reason...

I doubt Freedom of Movement would work, if that's what you're suggesting. That would be retarded. Besides, it flat out says that it holds them indefinitely.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I didn't read the replies, so here's hoping someone didn't already answer this.

"The Joker" should implement the leadership feat.

Using the lackeys, he can create a net of control around many of the situations he may create. Not to mention, it would net him a steady flow of income through which he can commit his nefarious (or righteous) deeds.

Actually, the Joker Bard is a bit more devious than that...

You see, Joker Bard has no need for the Leadership feat. The Joker Bard has a +60ish to Bluff when he really wants it (via Glibness), but even that is largely unnecessary, because all he has to do is start performing, then use a Mass Suggestion, and everyone listening to him will do pretty much whatever he wants anyways.

He doesn't have followers via Leadership Feat, he has people who do what he wants them to do despite the fact that they aren't his followers, because he's that good at getting others to do his dirty work for him.

[Graymayre]

Actually, the Joker Bard is a bit more devious than that...

You see, Joker Bard has no need for the Leadership feat. The Joker Bard has a +60ish to Bluff when he really wants it (via Glibness), but even that is largely unnecessary, because all he has to do is start performing, then use a Mass Suggestion, and everyone listening to him will do pretty much whatever he wants anyways.

He doesn't have followers via Leadership Feat, he has people who do what he wants them to do despite the fact that they aren't his followers, because he's that good at getting others to do his dirty work for him.

Yes, but if he did both... Than he'd have twice the followers!

[Sendal]

I'm interested by this "Trap the soul" spell. If you could somehow persuade Batman to pick it up, and whisk his soul away to the Jokers back pocket, there is a possible interpretation of one of the spells lesser side effects that could allow major mind screwing.

possible ways of making it work might be a shaped AMF that has a 1 inch dent arround the key, or somehow manage to enchant an object he would never suspect enough to cast detect X spell (like the artifact hes getting as a reward for something from the diplomacised king)

Originally Posted by magic9mushroom
Agreed. I'm not saying you should use TtS. Surprised you haven't heard of it though, seeing as it's in the PHB.




Trap the Soul Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S, M, (F); see text
Casting time: 1 standard action or see text
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Permanent; see text
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text

Trap the soul forces a creature’s life force (and its material body) into a gem. The gem holds the trapped entity indefinitely or until the gem is broken and the life force is released, which allows the material body to reform. If the trapped creature is a powerful creature from another plane it can be required to perform a service immediately upon being freed. Otherwise, the creature can go free once the gem imprisoning it is broken.

Depending on the version selected, the spell can be triggered in one of two ways.

Spell Completion: First, the spell can be completed by speaking its final word as a standard action as if you were casting a regular spell at the subject. This allows spell resistance (if any) and a Will save to avoid the effect. If the creature’s name is spoken as well, any spell resistance is ignored and the save DC increases by 2. If the save or spell resistance is successful, the gem shatters.

Trigger Object: The second method is far more insidious, for it tricks the subject into accepting a trigger object inscribed with the final spell word, automatically placing the creature’s soul in the trap. To use this method, both the creature’s name and the trigger word must be inscribed on the trigger object when the gem is enspelled. A sympathy spell can also be placed on the trigger object. As soon as the subject picks up or accepts the trigger object, its life force is automatically transferred to the gem without the benefit of spell resistance or a save.

Material Component: Before the actual casting of trap the soul, you must procure a gem of at least 1,000 gp value for every Hit Die possessed by the creature to be trapped. If the gem is not valuable enough, it shatters when the entrapment is attempted. (While creatures have no concept of level or Hit Dice as such, the value of the gem needed to trap an individual can be researched. Remember that this value can change over time as creatures gain more Hit Dice.)

Focus (Trigger Object Only): If the trigger object method is used, a special trigger object, prepared as described above, is needed.

If I remember correctly, batman lives in his own pocket plane. And hes certainly a powerful individual.

My sugestion for a request might be to assasinate respected figure X in full view of the public, as soon as possible. Or just perform any particular embarasing/demeaning act on the high street in town.


I think this is great because it shows Batman he could have been killed, if joker was so enclined, but instead proceeds with the mind screw.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, but if he did both... Than he'd have twice the followers!

It's irrelevant and dangerous for him to have Followers, as opposed to Dupes.

You see, Followers follow a specific person, and generally know who that person is. Dupes don't. Joker Bard is, by virtue of some racial feats and class abilities, effectively immune to scrying, so it's almost impossible to lock down his exact position suitable for a 'Port n Pwn'. However, a Minion might know sufficent information to be able to track down the Joker Bard.

Dupes, on the other hand, know what they believe... which only has a passing resemblance to what is actually happening. Thus the party cannot use the Dupes to track him down.

Also, this is not a PC, this is a BBEG. BBEG's don't need the leadership feat to have minions.

Also:

If I remember correctly, batman lives in his own pocket plane. And hes certainly a powerful individual.

My sugestion for a request might be to assasinate respected figure X in full view of the public, as soon as possible. Or just perform any particular embarasing/demeaning act on the high street in town.

Naw, the Joker will send a Missive to the party "Hahaha! I've got Batman's Soul. If you want him back, come get me..."

So they go chase the Joker down and finally find him.

"So glad you could come..." shatters gem, releasing Batman Wizard "Kill your party." then escapes in the ensuing mayhem.

[Sendal]

thats a bit harsh to batman's player though, as it takes him out of the action for a whole dungeon crawl until the last battle.

The beauty of the plan is that it has no long term effect. Batman gets royaly shafted, imediatly forced to perform one time service for his hated enemy, then can continue playing normaly, with newfound purpose.

Also allows for Bad guy monologue whilst batman is right where joker wants him (restrained in an antimagic field bound and gaged)

[monty]

possible ways of making it work might be a shaped AMF that has a 1 inch dent arround the key, or somehow manage to enchant an object he would never suspect enough to cast detect X spell (like the artifact hes getting as a reward for something from the diplomacised king)

AMF doesn't block line of effect, so Arcane Sight will pick it up unless it's actually within the field, in which case it doesn't work anyway. And with Arcane Sight up all the time, it doesn't matter what the item is, because he'll still automatically detect it.

[Sendal]

what if the (diplomacised) king's faithful spymaster hands over a sack of (apparently) nonmagical money? He picked it up in an AM field so he didn't get trapped of course.

There must be a way of getting even a paranoid Batman to pick up Any object without checking it properly.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

what if the (diplomacised) king's faithful spymaster hands over a sack of (apparently) nonmagical money? He picked it up in an AM field so he didn't get trapped of course.

There must be a way of getting even a paranoid Batman to pick up Any object without checking it properly.

Not without a 'rocks fall, you die' approach.

Besides, it is irrelevant, as Joker Bard doesn't have access to 8th level Wizard/Sorc spells like Trap the Soul anyways.

[magic9mushroom]

what if the (diplomacised) king's faithful spymaster hands over a sack of (apparently) nonmagical money? He picked it up in an AM field so he didn't get trapped of course.

There must be a way of getting even a paranoid Batman to pick up Any object without checking it properly.

A note: The spell is keyed, that's why you need his name. The spymaster is in no danger anyway.

How to do it? Nystul's Magic Aura. The problem is that you have to be in the Outlands for it to work, otherwise Batman's Foresight triggers automatically and he doesn't pick it up. And Batman's going to get into full paranoia mode when his Foresight is suppressed, you can count on that. Importantly, Trap the Soul is an 8th level spell, so the region of the Outlands in which TtS works but Foresight doesn't is quite narrow, and will give away to a sufficiently suspicious Batman that he's on the lookout for 8th level spells. He'll realise that TtS is a possibility and double-check everything.

Of course, the player might slip up with some of this. In which case he's utterly screwed.

@OP: Joker has access to scrolls of it I believe. And "rocks fall, you die" is perfectly all right in my book so long as it makes in-game sense. For instance, the party defeats a devilish conspiracy. The devils swear revenge. This happens. Perfectly in-character for the devils.

[monty]

Perfectly in-character for the devils.

Yes, but not for the Joker bard. Lawful Evil and Chaotic Insane are not the same at all.

[Starbuck_II]

Yes, but not for the Joker bard. Lawful Evil and Chaotic Insane are not the same at all.

You know even if Joker is found: he stats in a Silenced (multiple casted) room and can cast freely to escape due to Complete Adventure spell that makes Bards immune to silence (Joyful Noise).

So Batman has to summon outside and send monster in due to not very often will he prepare silenced metamagic.

[monty]

You know even if Joker is found: he stats in a Silenced (multiple casted) room and can cast freely to escape due to Complete Adventure spell that makes Bards immune to silence (Joyful Noise).

So Batman has to summon outside and send monster in due to not very often will he prepare silenced metamagic.

At that level, Batman can easily afford a bag full of metamagic rods, so that won't stop him. That is of course assuming he doesn't just use a spell with no verbal component or blast from outside the radius of the Silence.

Also, I'm not entirely sure why you quoted me, since what I said has nothing to do with your post that I can see.

[Sendal]

My use of the spell doesn't cause death. Its more a "rocks fall, you are inconvenienced and embarased"

And scrolls are fair game if you have UMD. The OP said they didn't want a utility belt aproach, but using one scroll to set up a hilarious plan like this seems very Joker to me. Its also possible He could have persuaded someone with high level spells to do him a few favours. This seems to be the point of the build. Its not what the Joker can do, but what he can get other people to do for him.

Foresight is unfortunatly a catch-all safety net. Getting it dispelled off him seems to be a prerequesit for any atempt to catch him out.

[Starbuck_II]

Quoting is fun?

True, but Metamagic rods are move action to grab if Heward's Handy Haversack or more time if bag of holding.

[monty]

True, but Metamagic rods are move action to grab if Heward's Handy Haversack or more time if bag of holding.

Meh. Most cases, Batman only needs a standard action to win. Less with Celerity cheese.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You know even if Joker is found: he stats in a Silenced (multiple casted) room and can cast freely to escape due to Complete Adventure spell that makes Bards immune to silence (Joyful Noise).

So Batman has to summon outside and send monster in due to not very often will he prepare silenced metamagic.

No, this is not the Joker Bard's MO

Joker Bard gets NOWHERE NEAR the party. Joker bard uses a combination of Suggestions to make someone believe, with all their heart, that THEY are Joker. That someone goes out to cause hassles, and is taken down by the Party.

They pat themselves on the back, convinced they got the real Joker.

In reality, the Joker was sitting on the sidelines, disguised as Random_Helpless_Victim_23. With the racial feat, they can't tell the difference. He doesn't twig Evil, because the persona he is imitating is Good. It also fools Detect Thoughts, and even Scry. After he is released, gushes effusively at the party, and wanders off... a couple of days later, the party gets a Missive: "What... you honestly think it is that easy to keep me killed? You'll have to do better than that..."

[Advocate]

This entire thread is founded on false premises. Let's start with the other casters (Cleric, Druid, Artificer, Archivist). They're on the same level as the Wizard, so all the posts along the lines of Wizards being better than everyone? Wholly false.

Once we've done that, let's move on to spells. We're discussing Wizards here, not Fighters. As such, spells are broad and not narrow. Seeing that monster x is there means a few spell slots, of many chance to cover x. If it's actually y... well that's what the other 90% of his spells are for. The reason why he is called Batman is because he always has the right tool for the job. He's not going to replace all his spells to cover monster x, he is smart after all. So... he still has the right tool for the job.

Now, let's move on to the concept itself. The only reason Joker becomes a recurring villain is because Batman won't kill him, so he plays with the Revolving Door at the Asylum. The Batman Wizard, and the other PCs have no such compunctions. In fact, annoying the party simply ensures they will all unload on him to kill him 65 times over before his turn comes up. Also, even if they did, the fact they know the authorities cannot possibly contain a high level spellcaster, particularly one of this sort means that even the stick up rear types will take justice upon themselves.

There are many more, but suffice it to say the misconceptions come from a lack of, or flawed understanding of the mechanics of the game.

[Yukitsu]

If I remember correctly, batman lives in his own pocket plane. And hes certainly a powerful individual.

Can guarantee that this refers to outsiders, who actually come from other planes, as opposed to living in one temporarily. Alternatively, you're dealing with the insane paranoid batman that fights by proxy through astral projection. They don't get one without the other, and can technically get the astral projection at level 7. Either way the plan can't work as speculated.

[Tharivol123]

Now, let's move on to the concept itself. The only reason Joker becomes a recurring villain is because Batman won't kill him, so he plays with the Revolving Door at the Asylum. The Batman Wizard, and the other PCs have no such compunctions.

What you're missing is one important factor in the concept the OP described. The Joker isn't there for the party to kill. He's disguised, somewhere else, watching the mayhem as the party takes out a duped impostor. You can't kill what isn't there, and the Joker never puts himself in a situation of real danger. If he ever confronts the party head on, it will be when he wants to on his own terms, probably with an army of mooks standing in front of him.
This isn't about a villain to fight the party, it is about a villain that turns the world (in essence) against the party and makes the heroes look like villains for all the destruction they cause in pursuit of the Joker.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What you're missing is one important factor in the concept the OP described. The Joker isn't there for the party to kill. He's disguised, somewhere else, watching the mayhem as the party takes out a duped impostor. You can't kill what isn't there, and the Joker never puts himself in a situation of real danger. If he ever confronts the party head on, it will be when he wants to on his own terms, probably with an army of mooks standing in front of him.
This isn't about a villain to fight the party, it is about a villain that turns the world (in essence) against the party and makes the heroes look like villains for all the destruction they cause in pursuit of the Joker.

In effect, yes. However, it is best to not feed the trolls or fan flame wars.

[Kaihaku]

Maybe this has been said before...but this would be best against a Batman Wizard with a robin familiar.

[Roland St. Jude]

i like it, and i might just use it.

for all the naysayers who are crying out "but batman can beat him", being a dm isnt about winning, and anyone who thinks so is obviously a terrible dm.


this build make a great foil for any batman wizard, and would encourage a lot of good roleplay

Sheriff of Moddingham: This thread was older than six weeks and farther back than page three. Please don't do thread necromancy.