Goblins V: It's Hard-Kore!

[Tiger Duck]

Yes, but proper vocabulary is often extremely important. For instance, I'm sure you meant "important" rather than "imported". In the subject post, it matters even more, because "entreé's" could actually be a joke, or it could a mistake and he really meant "entrants", since both could feasibly apply to the situation.

tl;dr - Word choice matters. Deal with it.

Ah yes that was a typo on my part. And my dyslexia prevented me from noticing it, without the help of those squiggly red lines

[The Linker]

Yes, but proper vocabulary is often extremely important. For instance, I'm sure you meant "important" rather than "imported". In the subject post, it matters even more, because "entreé's" could actually be a joke, or it could a mistake and he really meant "entrants", since both could feasibly apply to the situation.

tl;dr - Word choice matters. Deal with it.

This is true. Above all, it's worth pointing out and correcting it now -- yes, we can glean what he meant from the context, but if we don't correct it now, he may go on and use entreé in a truly confusing way. Say, I don't know, there's an eating competition going on and he asks "Alright, we have our entreés?" People don't understand, he doesn't see anything wrong because he used the word previously without comment, and everyone just gets frustrated.

Why not helpfully raise the issue now? He'll be better off for it, right? I can only imagine that if someone's goal is to have a discussion in English, free from as much confusion as possible, any pointers in that direction would be nothing but helpful.

[Gez]

Yes, but proper vocabulary is often extremely important. For instance, I'm sure you meant "important" rather than "imported".

Well, "entrée" (the accented e is before non-accented e, not after) is an imported word, since it's from a different language.

[Starbuck_II]

Complex math! NO!

Nah, it'd probably be something like a small child in danger, wherein saving him would take too much time and they'd have no chance of completing the dungeon first (or at least no chance of getting out of the room in time.)

No, Minmax has to attempt to tie his shoe in order to escape a trap. (remember he gave up that ability for an feat). I'd assume a dex check would be called for if he tried.

[ChowGuy]

Yes, but proper vocabulary is often extremely important. For instance, I'm sure you meant "important" rather than "imported". In the subject post, it matters even more, because "entreé's" could actually be a joke, or it could a mistake and he really meant "entrants", since both could feasibly apply to the situation.

tl;dr - Word choice matters. Deal with it.

Stuff happens.

[The Linker]

Of course, sometimes it's a typo, and you can remain assured the person knows what the proper usage of the word or phrase in question is.

Sometimes it's a different word entirely, and it's a bit cloudier. I don't think you can typo an é.

[Sholos]

Well, "entrée" (the accented e is before non-accented e, not after) is an imported word, since it's from a different language.

You know, I thought there was something wrong with that. I just copy-pasted, though.

Stuff happens.

Exactly, though that is a case of a missing word ('be', to be specific) and not poor word choice. Both can cause confusion (though missing words tend to cause less confusion among native speakers because of the way our brains read).

[Hands_Of_Blue]

So I found this while going through tvtropes the other day.

It's a listing of all the alternate realities with pictures, if they have one. I think it's pretty neat.

[Tiger Duck]

So I found this while going through tvtropes the other day.

It's a listing of all the alternate realities with pictures, if they have one. I think it's pretty neat.

I agree that is pretty neat

[Aquillion]

So, wait. There are 218 groups in the maze.

Assuming all challenges follow the same general structure (it's kind of luck-based otherwise, isn't it?), everyone just went through a trap with one other group.

Now, you'd assume it would keep pairing them up like that in challenges. But... 218 / 2 = 109. While, granted, it was possible for both groups to survive this, there's no way to easily keep pairing up members of the various groups for elimination.

Why 218, anyway? It's a weird number to choose. I'd have expected a power of two, somehow.

[Draconi Redfir]

Well it's still a race remember. Any team that gets eliminated is just one more team the others don't need to beat.

[Draconi Redfir]

Well it's still a race remember. Any team that gets eliminated is just one more team the others don't need to beat.

[Traab]

So, wait. There are 218 groups in the maze.

Assuming all challenges follow the same general structure (it's kind of luck-based otherwise, isn't it?), everyone just went through a trap with one other group.

Now, you'd assume it would keep pairing them up like that in challenges. But... 218 / 2 = 109. While, granted, it was possible for both groups to survive this, there's no way to easily keep pairing up members of the various groups for elimination.

Why 218, anyway? It's a weird number to choose. I'd have expected a power of two, somehow.

As far as I know, theres no rule stating that only one team from each pair will move on from each trap. Im sure there are pairs where both died, or both lived as well as just one or the other. And honestly? Unless the next trap also involves interacting with another group, it could just be coincidence, and the presence of all those holes in the wall that let them talk to each other. So being paired up or not isnt necessarily a requirement going forward.

[Marnath]

So, today's update is canceled. Hopefully his hand heals in time for tuesday update.

[Turalisj]

Yeah, I agree. I mean, does anyone imagine a player in a game (not that Kin is a player-controlled character) ever linking a trap's mechanisms to their own inner emotional/mental state?

Yes, yes I do. Granted, my group might not be considered your average group, as we've got at least two players from every gaming generation since the 70's.

[Ganurath]

You know, this last update made me realize something.

I appreciate that Forgath convinced Minmax to wear pants.

[Friv]

I just had a thought about how many times it's taken for the team to get through the maze.

Kin specifies that the multiverse is mainly evil. When Evil MinMax dies, EvilKin is still trying to escape. Is it possible that, knowing that their group will resurrect if all three heroes die, the Good Team has been suiciding when one or more members die, rather than pressing on and trying to win?

That would create a situation where evil teams, willing to lose a member to keep going, would win far more often than good teams, who know that they can just try again.

[TheSummoner]

Makes sense... I'm guessing the only way to die permanently in this maze is to die in an attempt where the rest of your team wins... You're dead, but since your team won, they don't reset. An evil team might not care as much as a good one (keyword: Might. Just because they're evil... and this first team didn't get along well... doesn't mean there aren't evil alternates who are still friends with each other.)

Still... Losing a teammate could make it harder to clear the maze even if you did try to go on... Though this first puzzle could probably be done just as easily with one person as three (provided that one person doesn't try to analyze everything like Kin does and just made a run for it the moment it opened enough to get through), I'd wager not all of them work that way.

[Ravens_cry]

These guys were a bunch of <expletive redacted/>, but it was still a bit of kick in the gut when they died. No one deserves to die like that. I wouldn't even subject everyone's favourite Dwarven "Paladin" to that. Him, I have something worse then death, I want a means of making him see what he has done wrong, all the lies and bigotry swept away.

[petersohn]

They are not dead. They are just reset. And next time, they won't have our FMK trio next to them.

[teratorn]

They are not dead. They are just reset. And next time, they won't have our FMK trio next to them.

Well, psionmax will eventually destroy the place and given how bad those guys are they're still going to be stuck there.

[Draconi Redfir]

Well, psionmax will eventually destroy the place and given how bad those guys are they're still going to be stuck there.

Never know, our FMK might find a way to kill him permanently. Or they just shove him out the exit before he can do anything. Though i guess that doesn’t stop him from coming back inside unless there is a failsafe for that of some sort.

Maybe they could find a way to make him touch the sword's blade? Or make him use the teapot to teleport to some place with a monster that will kill him no problem?

[TheStranger]

Thinking about the Goth FMK's fate got me wondering: how many groups are trapped in something close to a no-win situation? Without any memory of past attempts, their next attempt is likely to go about the same way. Maybe there's some element of random chance, or maybe there's some potential for interacting with the group they're paired with in a way that produces a different result, but it seems like the vast majority of attempts for that group will result in gruesome death. It's not hard to imagine that some of the other groups might be in a similar situation - the way they approach the problem will almost always result in failure. And even if they do beat that challenge once in a while, they won't remember how they did it if they fail later, and they'll probably die in the first room again.

Assuming that the Maze consists of a series of challenges, some of which are against set obstacles or enemies and some of which are against other groups, a low chance of success on a few early challenges could result in a group having a near-zero chance of winning the maze. And if any group, for whatever reason, is incapable of success on a challenge (a skill check they can't make, for instance), they'll be stuck in the Maze forever. The nature of infinity suggests that such groups must exist, and the nature of the Maze suggests that it will eventually be filled with such groups.

Also, it seems like this answers the question of whether the Maze allows for a no-winner scenario. Since the challenge we've seen requires each group to succeed or fail on its own, it's possible that every group could fail. Infinity being what it is, sooner or later there will be a run where every group fails in the first room.

This assumes that the Maze is the same for all groups, and that the Maze itself is the same in each successive attempt. It's possible that only the two groups we saw faced the sliding-wall trap, and every other group did something else, or that the Maze generates random challenges for each run and no two runs are the same.

[fizzybobnewt]

My theory about about PsionMax: Since this is the first time his goal will be radically different from the other times (Killing the maze instead of figuring out how to kill it), this will be somehow be the difference our heroes need to make it through when they failed the other times. Because it's the only really different variable, besides the replacement of the winning group. That last sentence may be incorrect, but why else did we meet PsionMax and learn his plan.

Also, sure we like MinMax and Forgath when we get to know them, but wouldn't it be better for a certain tribe of goblins had they never existed at all?

[Radar]

(...)
Also, sure we like MinMax and Forgath when we get to know them, but wouldn't it be better for a certain tribe of goblins had they never existed at all?

Without the attack on the goblin camp, there would be no GAP. Without them, monsters imprisoned in Brassmoon would never get free and learn, that they can take class levels too. If it weren't for Minmax and Forgath, Kore would be the one to slaughter the goblin camp and he would be much more efficient.

[Traab]

Without the attack on the goblin camp, there would be no GAP. Without them, monsters imprisoned in Brassmoon would never get free and learn, that they can take class levels too. If it weren't for Minmax and Forgath, Kore would be the one to slaughter the goblin camp and he would be much more efficient.

That last part is the most important one along with the brassmoon escape. If minmax and company hadnt shown up, every goblin there would have died, and likely he would have tracked down the home camp of the gobbos as well. So instead of the warband getting wiped out, in the end the entire tribe would have been slaughtered.

[Occasional Sage]

Would somebody be kind enough to explain the short story Thunt posted? I think I'm missing a pun....

[Draconi Redfir]

*Wordz*

I think the fact that they can hear their opponent in the first room prevents that. Let's say for example a Kin gets confused in room A, figures out the solution, and then stupidly explains it to Forgath and Minmax A. Meanwhile in Room B, Kin B overhears all this, and gets Forgath B confused, allowing them to escape.

The mere fact that they have some form of interaction shuffles the deck so to speak. so it's possible even if team B doesn’t win, they won't face team A again, allowing team C to pass and win after hearing team A Kin. Eventually it gets to a point were team A kin gets distracted by something team F Kin is saying, and gets confused, allowing the process continue, and allowing team A to proceed.


TL;DR: Maybe the maze swaps teams that can interact, regardless of who won.

Would somebody be kind enough to explain the short story Thunt posted? I think I'm missing a pun....

There's a Zombie on your lawn, there’s a zombie on your lawn. There’s a zombie on your law-awn, We don't want zombies on your lawn.

[memnarch]

Would somebody be kind enough to explain the short story Thunt posted? I think I'm missing a pun....

Think PopCap games.

[TheStranger]

*Response to my wordz*

Yeah, that's one way the Maze could shuffle the deck for groups that were having trouble, and I'm sure there are others. It's also possible that Goth FMK has a high average success rate on that challenge and we just happened to see a bad run for them. But if the Maze contains a substantial number of challenges pitting the teams against environmental traps, some groups will have a low chance of succeeding on those challenges. And even if they do get through once in a while, unless they go on to win the Maze, they'll have to do it all over again. And when they try again, they'll be just as unlikely to succeed as they ever were.

This is less of a problem if the bulk of the maze pits groups against each other in challenges that will always have a winner. But if there are a lot of challenges like the one we've seen, the Maze will select for groups that have a very low success rate on those challenges, keeping those groups in the Maze until the bulk of the groups in the Maze are unlikely to succeed.

It's less likely, but not impossible, for a group to enter the Maze that simply cannot succeed. The simplest example would be a challenge that requires a skill check that nobody in the group can make, although we don't know that the Maze includes any such challenges. In that case, the Maze would tend to collect those groups (since they can't leave, but other groups can), until all 218 spots are taken up by groups that cannot succeed and each iteration results in no winner.

Although... (I'm out-thinking myself now)

The previous line of thought assumes that the Maze operates in a sequential fashion - 218 groups compete, one wins, a new group replaces them, everybody's counter advances by one, and they try again. However, there's really no reason to assume that the Maze operates according to any kind of temporal/causal rules. It's equally possible that an infinite number of iterations of the Maze are run more or less simultaneously, each with a completely random collection of FMK groups, and that each iteration is completely independent. There's no such thing as a "previous" or "next" iteration, just the current one, which is one of many and has no temporal or causal relationship to any others. Each group might have a subjective timeline (as evidenced by the counters), but that timeline only applies to that group and their counter, and that group's next attempt isn't "after" the previous one in any meaningful sense. Now that I think about it, I kind of like this idea better, actually.