LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

[rayne_dragon]

I kinda hope for Death from the sandman comics, or maybe the Incarnations of Immortality version for a completely different reason.

Also,

Listen close, 'Sarta, this is something a very, very unfortunate friend told me and it's really important.

No matter how much worse someone else may have it, if something upsets you, you deserve sympathy and help and cuddles.

No exceptions.

This is one of the best things that has ever been said anywhere.

[Trog]

Asexual, I believe.

Ahh... good to know. Thanks.

[celtois]

@Unosarta

Typed out this post then realized I should probably spoiler it due to the length, feel free not the read it, but if you do I hope it helps.

Spoiler

Show

While I haven't really read through everyone responses to you or all your responses back. I'm just going to address what you were talking about initially; feeling guilty.

So essentially you are one of those crazy people we are going to call a giver.

I'm going to equate emotional support to sustenance so bear with me a for a second.

As I recall you were feeling guilty because you are in a situation where your parents are supportive of being LGBT, while your friends parents are not, an now you feel more guilty because you are receiving sympathy for your problems which you consider minor in comparison.

I'm going to look at the second reason for guilt first.

So let's say that if you have smaller or less problems, you have more food, and no food being dire problems. So what you seem to be doing is saying, look everyone else has problems that are so much worse than mine. I have all these friends who can't eat because they don't have enough food, and here I am receiving food stamps(emotional support) when I already have enough food to live on. I feel awful. I should give all my friends food to eat.
(Which is a good thing to do by the way. ) So you decided to give away all your food stamps and all your food so you friends can eat, the result you are left with an empty belly/no food (problems un-addressed), and if you don't you feel guilty.

This is not a healthy reaction, starving yourself to feed your friends helps nobody in the long run, you can only give away so much, so rather then feeling guilty for receiving support, use the added emotional stability that support can bring to help your friend out, that way your emotionally healthier and your friend is too.

As for the cause of guilt number two

There is nothing wrong with feeling bad for another situation, however your family being supportive while theirs is not is like feeling really guilty, for not sharing food with someone despite it already being in your belly, by which I don't mean you ate it, it just magically appeared there with no chance for you to share it. it isn't a situation you can change, so the guilt only hampers your own emotional state and makes you frustrated about a situation you had no control over. Food magically appearing in your belly, instead of trying to work with the situation that you found yourself in to help your friend. The guilt isn't helping anyone.

And I swear if you feel guilty after reading this post!

Now guilt is a natural thing, someone that all normal people feel however in these situations it is clear that guilt isn't helping anyone. So instead of looking at these situations as something that you had any control over ie. (Can feel guilt about.) Look at them as a chance to take a rotten situation you were stuck in and find a way to make it just a bit better. Don't waste your energy feeling bad that you lucked out and your friend didn't, share the luck by being a happier better person for it and a good supportive friend.

[golentan]

You know, when I die, I really truly genuinely hope it's the Discworld Death who comes for me, so I can give him a big hug and tell him I appreciate him.

When I die, I really hope it's my friend who comes for me. I'd like to snuggle again one last time, and I'm fair sure she'd give me both what I feel I deserve and desire post-life.

[Skeppio]

@Unosarta

Typed out this post then realized I should probably spoiler it due to the length, feel free not the read it, but if you do I hope it helps.

Spoiler

Show

*snip*

That is actually a really awesome and accurate analogy.

[Vaynor]

I could never, ever try to deny bisexuality A) because that would be denying a group of people's existence, which is just illogical since I know so many bisexual people, and B) because some of my closest LGBT friends are Bisexual, and they would never forgive me. But mostly A).

Bisexuals have come a long way in this regard, but I've still met plenty of people that deny pansexuals, which is unfortunate.

Maybe bisexualism just wasn't greedy enough. :P

[Miscast_Mage]

Bisexuals have come a long way in this regard, but I've still met plenty of people that deny pansexuals, which is unfortunate.

Maybe bisexualism just wasn't greedy enough. :P

The sad thing is, this make's it even worse because people haven't learned the lesson, they've just moved the same stupid logic to another group. Hextor forbid that people don't learn to make snap-judgements based on who you'd want to ahn-ahhn~ with.

On a slightly happier note, Miscast_Mage has a date. A sexy date. Onward! To yayness! and some ahn-ahhn~ too.

[Coidzor]

Are you guys referring to people not distinguishing between bi and pan or something else that I've never heard of before?

[Miscast_Mage]

Are you guys referring to people not distinguishing between bi and pan or something else that I've never heard of before?

I've seen people who refuse to believe people can be bi/pan, thinking they're just doing it for attention or that they don't know whether or not they're gay/straight yet, or that they can be bi/pan, but that means automatically wanting to hump anyone and anything within a 1m meter radius.

[Lyesmith]

Are you guys referring to people not distinguishing between bi and pan or something else that I've never heard of before?

Is there genuinely a difference? I don't really see it.

[Nix Nihila]

Is there genuinely a difference? I don't really see it.

I think the idea is that pansexuality doesn't imply that there are only two genders. Most people I know don't really distinguish between them though.

[MickJay]

Bisexuals have come a long way in this regard, but I've still met plenty of people that deny pansexuals, which is unfortunate.

Maybe bisexualism just wasn't greedy enough. :P

Hey, I know one bisexual female who still has a hard time figuring out why exactly "Ts" are grouped with the rest of "LGB"... on a somewhat related note, I found "LGBT+" to be a practical way of showing inclusiveness of the acronym. Otherwise, it either ends up excluding some people, or becomes a 13+ letter long monstrosity.

"Pan" in "pansexual" is supposed to remove what some people consider to be a too restrictive "binary" approach to gender/biological sex. "Bi" = male and female, "pan" = male, female and everyone else who don't neatly fit into either category.

[Lyesmith]

Hey, I know one bisexual female who still has a hard time figuring out why exactly "Ts" are grouped with the rest of "LGB"... on a somewhat related note, I found "LGBT+" to be a practical way of showing inclusiveness of the acronym. Otherwise, it either ends up excluding some people, or becomes a 13+ letter long monstrosity.

"Pan" in "pansexual" is supposed to remove what some people consider to be a too restrictive "binary" approach to gender/biological sex. "Bi" = male and female, "pan" = male, female and everyone else who don't neatly fit into either category.

I've always mentally translated Bi as including these other genders anyway, pan seems a little semantically suspect if I think about it too much.

[Eleanor_Rigby]

I'd be more likely to describe myself as bisexual than pansexual because it's a wider used term but I wouldn't reject a wonderful person who happened to be intersex or trans because both fit into my concept of bi which I prefer as a term for simplicity's sake.
On the other hand I'm not going to approach somebody who describes their sexual identity as pansexual and tell them that they've got it wrong because that would be mean and daft. As far as I can see there's a huge amount of overlap between the two terms though and it's mostly down to respecting what people would prefer to be described as for me. I've got very little experience in this whole area though because I've been brought up in an environment where these discussions don't really come up and my general knowledge of anything outside of Straight/Gay comes almost 100% from the internet.

Thanks for your responses unosarta, I hope I didn't come over as weirdly pushy/know-it-all or anything as far as your problems go. I'm overdue for a look-in on the depression thread myself and a lot of my problems as far as depression go are related to guilt. I have a lot of Autistic spectrum in my family but barely register on it myself so I get mad at myself when I struggle because I feel like I'm not entitled to do so - I understand this is stupid and I'm not fishing for sympathy but you strike me as far too nice a person to go down the guilt roads I've gone down and I like to try and help people where I can, especially if they've been helpful/kind to me.
And re: the ****** thing, that sounds like something I tend to do: if I'm talking about something that I realise could/should be upsetting I'm pretty likely to start crying about it even if I'm not actually genuinely distressed about it. I think I'm probably a lot teary-er than you are but still. It's kind of like the reaction people have when they cry at sad movies, I think... it's a short term kind of bawling that's probably "OK" in the long run. (I'm not 100% sure I guessed the word right but I suspect it's vaguely moot anyhow. I'm thinking of something that's much nicer when it's used in reference to lace work.)
Celtois, whether your analogies were helpful to unosarta or not, I really identified with what you were saying personally. I shall keep what you've said in mind for future use, thanks for being (at the very least) indirectly helpful!

Ooh! And I think "LGBT+" is a good term. "LGBTA" is a few more letters than I care to use and LGBT+ feels inclusive enough for my purposes so... thanks.

[Vaynor]

I've always mentally translated Bi as including these other genders anyway, pan seems a little semantically suspect if I think about it too much.

Right, but it doesn't. Semantics aside, I've met bisexuals who aren't attracted to non-binary genders (I don't know enough bisexuals to gauge this properly, but the fact that such a demographic even exists is reason enough for the word pansexual, in my opinion). I think a lot of bisexuals are attracted to non-binary genders/sexes in the same way pansexuals are, but that's mostly because pansexualism isn't a widely used term at this point.

[unosarta]

Bisexuals have come a long way in this regard, but I've still met plenty of people that deny pansexuals, which is unfortunate.

Maybe bisexualism just wasn't greedy enough. :P

Ugh. So... much... illogicality...

@Unosarta

Typed out this post then realized I should probably spoiler it due to the length, feel free not the read it, but if you do I hope it helps.

Spoiler

Show

While I haven't really read through everyone responses to you or all your responses back. I'm just going to address what you were talking about initially; feeling guilty.

So essentially you are one of those crazy people we are going to call a giver.

I'm going to equate emotional support to sustenance so bear with me a for a second.

As I recall you were feeling guilty because you are in a situation where your parents are supportive of being LGBT, while your friends parents are not, an now you feel more guilty because you are receiving sympathy for your problems which you consider minor in comparison.

I'm going to look at the second reason for guilt first.

So let's say that if you have smaller or less problems, you have more food, and no food being dire problems. So what you seem to be doing is saying, look everyone else has problems that are so much worse than mine. I have all these friends who can't eat because they don't have enough food, and here I am receiving food stamps(emotional support) when I already have enough food to live on. I feel awful. I should give all my friends food to eat.
(Which is a good thing to do by the way. ) So you decided to give away all your food stamps and all your food so you friends can eat, the result you are left with an empty belly/no food (problems un-addressed), and if you don't you feel guilty.

This is not a healthy reaction, starving yourself to feed your friends helps nobody in the long run, you can only give away so much, so rather then feeling guilty for receiving support, use the added emotional stability that support can bring to help your friend out, that way your emotionally healthier and your friend is too.

As for the cause of guilt number two

There is nothing wrong with feeling bad for another situation, however your family being supportive while theirs is not is like feeling really guilty, for not sharing food with someone despite it already being in your belly, by which I don't mean you ate it, it just magically appeared there with no chance for you to share it. it isn't a situation you can change, so the guilt only hampers your own emotional state and makes you frustrated about a situation you had no control over. Food magically appearing in your belly, instead of trying to work with the situation that you found yourself in to help your friend. The guilt isn't helping anyone.

And I swear if you feel guilty after reading this post!

Now guilt is a natural thing, someone that all normal people feel however in these situations it is clear that guilt isn't helping anyone. So instead of looking at these situations as something that you had any control over ie. (Can feel guilt about.) Look at them as a chance to take a rotten situation you were stuck in and find a way to make it just a bit better. Don't waste your energy feeling bad that you lucked out and your friend didn't, share the luck by being a happier better person for it and a good supportive friend.

You make a sensible point. I talked to one of my friends today, and she said similar things.

I also took Lix's advice and gave her a hug, although it was weird, because she didn't really want it apparently. :C
I ended up giving it to her anyway, but her argument was basically "I am not that bad off, don't hug me." Even though her parents are crazy (sometimes good crazy, sometimes...), and they couldn't afford to pay for a 35$ test, or something. It was stupid. And she seemed kinda bummed. So I hugged her.

It was also weird because people seemed to be looking at us strangely after that, even though it was totally not that kind of hug, and she has a boyfriend anyway.
People are illogical.

On a slightly happier note, Miscast_Mage has a date. A sexy date. Onward! To yayness! and some ahn-ahhn~ too.

Oh my gosh, congratulations! Tell us all, good sir, tell us all... >:D
I have found myself using more and more non-GitP smilies as time moves on... weird.

[Lix Lorn]

I also took Lix's advice and gave her a hug, although it was weird, because she didn't really want it apparently. :C
I ended up giving it to her anyway, but her argument was basically "I am not that bad off, don't hug me." Even though her parents are crazy (sometimes good crazy, sometimes...), and they couldn't afford to pay for a 35$ test, or something. It was stupid. And she seemed kinda bummed. So I hugged her.

Clearly she needs to hear the philosophy too. DXD
(hugs all)

[unosarta]

Clearly she needs to hear the philosophy too. DXD
(hugs all)

No, I clearly explained it to her, and she was like "I don't care, I don't need any hugs." Fortunately, I am bigger than her, and forced the hug anyway. :D

[Lix Lorn]

Aaah. xD
Hugs are important. (nodnod)

[Eleanor_Rigby]

Aaah. xD
Hugs are important. (nodnod)

I read this, and as I did so, my sister apparated behind me, gave me a big hug and said "I love you", trotted off to the corner to "hug the fish goodnight" (which I also do - I can't hug the fish so I hug "his" tank to express fondness for "him", he's a goldfish who lives alone so I have no idea whether that pronoun's accurate, we figure so long as we keep him fed and clean, he's not going to be upset about what we call him) then wandered off to bed. Love, romantic or otherwise, is good. [/sappy]

Miscast_Mage, I do not know you. But I'm going to wish you good luck for your date anyway, because you seem to be looking forward to it and I expect you've got good reason to so I hope it goes well. Now that you have "good luck" from a random internet stranger, everything shall go swimmingly. [/creepy]

[Lix Lorn]

I read this, and as I did so, my sister apparated behind me, gave me a big hug and said "I love you", trotted off to the corner to "hug the fish goodnight" (which I also do - I can't hug the fish so I hug "his" tank to express fondness for "him", he's a goldfish who lives alone so I have no idea whether that pronoun's accurate, we figure so long as we keep him fed and clean, he's not going to be upset about what we call him) then wandered off to bed. Love, romantic or otherwise, is good. [/sappy]

Okay everyone, deep breath, 3, 2, 1
DAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

[Miscast_Mage]

Okay everyone, deep breath, 3, 2, 1
DAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

D'awww. My d'awww may be small, but it's strength is larger than any sound.

And thanks for the good wishes, guys. I shall have more info when it commences on Sunday!

[unosarta]

D'awww. My d'awww may be small, but it's strength is larger than any sound.

And thanks for the good wishes, guys. I shall have more info when it commences on Sunday!

Oh, I read it as having already happened. Well, good luck.

[Danne]

See my response below. Thanks for the support, though.



Yeah. It's just, with the guy who came over, and then with my other friend...
Basically; her parents are really homophobic. And she is pansexual. She doesn't want to live with them, as far as I know, but she can't move out, because she isn't 18. Her parents still don't know her sexuality.
Her cousin, however, does, and is really, really supportive. She just had a baby (I think she is married), and my friend loves that baby (it, like all other babies, is damn cute). She had lunch with her mother and her cousins mother. The conversation of LGBT people came up. Her aunt said that she would never allow someone who was LGBT to touch the baby, and my friend's mother agreed.
It's just... not a good situation. And there are other people like that in my LGBT group, and I feel like I shouldn't get to be happy while they have so much **** that they have to deal with.

That's terrible. People shouldn't have to hide from those who supposedly love them.

Unsorta, folks have already discussed why it's okay to feel guilty and such, so instead, I charge you with the command to give this child as much snuggles and cuddles as possible, if you get the opportunity. What's the aunt and grandmother have to do with who gets to do what with someone's kid, anyway?

Just be there for your friend and be glad that she has supportive cousins and cute grand-cousins (or whatever you call a cousin's child, once-removed-something-or-others and such).

[unosarta]

That's terrible. People shouldn't have to hide from those who supposedly love them.

Unsorta, folks have already discussed why it's okay to feel guilty and such, so instead, I charge you with the command to give this child as much snuggles and cuddles as possible, if you get the opportunity. What's the aunt and grandmother have to do with who gets to do what with someone's kid, anyway?

Just be there for your friend and be glad that she has supportive cousins and cute grand-cousins (or whatever you call a cousin's child, once-removed-something-or-others and such).

I know.

I would! But I don't have any classes with her, and the only time I get to really see her is at the LGBT meetings, and the last one I forgot. And I never see her in the halls, or I would totally hug her.

[rayne_dragon]

No, I clearly explained it to her, and she was like "I don't care, I don't need any hugs." Fortunately, I am bigger than her, and forced the hug anyway. :D

Er... not to detract from your attempt at a good deed, but forcing a hug still has the potential to be unwanted contact and I have to object to the idea that anyone has a right to force any kind of physical contact on another person. That said, there is a difference between someone saying they don't want a hug and actually not wanting one - and I trust that you know the person in question well enough to tell the difference.

Right, but it doesn't. Semantics aside, I've met bisexuals who aren't attracted to non-binary genders (I don't know enough bisexuals to gauge this properly, but the fact that such a demographic even exists is reason enough for the word pansexual, in my opinion). I think a lot of bisexuals are attracted to non-binary genders/sexes in the same way pansexuals are, but that's mostly because pansexualism isn't a widely used term at this point.

Speaking as someone who considers themselves pansexual, I did have a concern about my ability to be attracted to someone who was outside my own concepts of male and female - until I met and was attracted to such a person. Funnily enough this was before I knew about my own condition. But the point I'm trying to make is that even as someone who thought they'd be accepting of all gender variations it occurred to me to doubt that I wasn't just bisexual in a 'only attracted to male or female' sort of way. So, come to think of it, pansexual does make a useful distinction, it just isn't used commonly enough (yet) that people understand that it is a useful term. Most bisexual may actually be pansexual, but given all the varients of sexuality there must be some who aren't. Even as a pansexual, I wonder if it wouldn't be more useful for me to try to find a term to describe that I generally only have interest in other bi/pansexuals. Maybe I'm chopping it too fine. Still as one of those non-binary gender folk I have to say that I do appreciate people who identify as pansexual (and I don't feel it detracts from bisexuals who are okay with people like me either, it just makes it a little easier to tell that they'll be okay with me or people like me).

[unosarta]

Er... not to detract from your attempt at a good deed, but forcing a hug still has the potential to be unwanted contact and I have to object to the idea that anyone has a right to force any kind of physical contact on another person. That said, there is a difference between someone saying they don't want a hug and actually not wanting one - and I trust that you know the person in question well enough to tell the difference.

My wording was bad here. She actually said that she didn't need a hug, and I thought she did, so I hugged her. And then afterward, she said that she used to get a bunch of hugs every day, but that recently they have been petering out (this in response to me hugging her), so I hugged her again. Because she sounded sad.

[rayne_dragon]

My wording was bad here. She actually said that she didn't need a hug, and I thought she did, so I hugged her. And then afterward, she said that she used to get a bunch of hugs every day, but that recently they have been petering out (this in response to me hugging her), so I hugged her again. Because she sounded sad.

I did say that I was sure you wouldn't actually force a hug on someone who doesn't want one. I just didn't want anyone to get the impression that such a thing is okay. Especially given that my reaction to people touching me after I have told them to stop tends to rapidly become very painful for them.

But I don't like that your friend is sad and lacking hugs... would you offer her one for me please?

[unosarta]

I did say that I was sure you wouldn't actually force a hug on someone who doesn't want one. I just didn't want anyone to get the impression that such a thing is okay. Especially given that my reaction to people touching me after I have told them to stop tends to rapidly become very painful for them.

But I don't like that your friend is sad and lacking hugs... would you offer her one for me please?

Of course! Unfortunately, I am no where near her right now, and I probably won't be until Monday. But I will most assuredly hug her on Monday. :D

[Serpentine]

My main problem with pansexuality is when it's used in an "oh, I'm attracted to people and perthonalitieth, not thextheth", which I find nonsensical. Thus the lisping.
...It makes more sense when I do it out loud. Anyway, as a "more accurate" terminological alternative with the same definition I'm fine with the concept.