General Exalted Discussion VI: Ascendancy Mantle of the Playground

[Mr.Bookworm]

Can someone find me an online description/picture of Mice of the Sun?

I've been looking but no luck.

They are literally slightly larger then normal white field mice, with a Dawn caste anima symbol on their back. There's a picture and stats in CoTD: North.

There's a picture here.

[Kris Strife]

They are literally normal-sized white field mice, with a Dawn caste anima symbol on their back. There's a picture and stats in CoTD: North.

There's a picture here.

I got that one, I was trying to find the shield one, and a text description to show someone who doesn't have the books.

They're also in GotMH: Unconquered Sun.

Honestly, that image looks like a gerbil with lazor eyes.

[Qaera]

It was Reynard, I think?

~ ♅

[Mr.Bookworm]

There you are. There's a good text description in Compass: North, but I take it you don't have that?

[Kris Strife]

There you are. There's a good text description in Compass: North, but I take it you don't have that?

I have access to all of the books, but I'm trying to show them to EsperDerek.

And that's exactly what I was looking for.

Also, can you roll Martial Arts to attack with a form weapon, even if you don't have the form charm for the MA you're using?

[Gensh]

Also, can you roll Martial Arts to attack with a form weapon, even if you don't have the form charm for the MA you're using?

From Scroll of Errata

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Martial Arts Form Weapons
Martial arts form weapons that are defined as “martial arts
weapons”, such as sai, are always wielded with (Dexterity +
Martial Arts). Once a person has learned a martial art that
uses, say, the slashing sword as a form weapon, she may thereafter
use (Dexterity + Melee) or (Dexterity + Martial Arts)
with that weapon, typically using the score that is better. The
only exception is that she must use (Dexterity + Martial Arts)
when wielding the slashing sword with a Charm from the supernatural
martial art for which it is a form weapon.
When using a Martial Arts style which allows the use of Archery,
Melee, or Thrown weapons by inclusion in the style’s
list of form-type weaponry, the character’s attacks are capped
by their rating in the associated Ability until the character has
mastered the style’s Form-type Charm. For example, a character
using Righteous Devil Style would base his Martial Arts
attacks with firewands on his Archery score until learning
Righteous Devil Form. This cap applies even if the style has
no explicit additional Ability minimums. This condition does
not apply to the first Martial Arts style the character wishes to
learn; only subsequent styles are affected.

tl;dr - Yes, but it's capped by the other Ability until you learn the Charm unless it's the first style you learned.

Also, I made a MA style. Several of the Charms came out wrong, so I might mark them as different Charms and add more appropriate ones to the style using the old names.

[Kris Strife]

From Scroll of Errata

Spoiler

Show

Martial Arts Form Weapons
Martial arts form weapons that are defined as “martial arts
weapons”, such as sai, are always wielded with (Dexterity +
Martial Arts). Once a person has learned a martial art that
uses, say, the slashing sword as a form weapon, she may thereafter
use (Dexterity + Melee) or (Dexterity + Martial Arts)
with that weapon, typically using the score that is better. The
only exception is that she must use (Dexterity + Martial Arts)
when wielding the slashing sword with a Charm from the supernatural
martial art for which it is a form weapon.
When using a Martial Arts style which allows the use of Archery,
Melee, or Thrown weapons by inclusion in the style’s
list of form-type weaponry, the character’s attacks are capped
by their rating in the associated Ability until the character has
mastered the style’s Form-type Charm. For example, a character
using Righteous Devil Style would base his Martial Arts
attacks with firewands on his Archery score until learning
Righteous Devil Form. This cap applies even if the style has
no explicit additional Ability minimums. This condition does
not apply to the first Martial Arts style the character wishes to
learn; only subsequent styles are affected.

tl;dr - Yes, but it's capped by the other Ability until you learn the Charm unless it's the first style you learned.

Also, I made a MA style. Several of the Charms came out wrong, so I might mark them as different Charms and add more appropriate ones to the style using the old names.

So, if my MA charms are all from one style, I can use my Straight Sword form weapon and roll my full MA instead of melee?

Just verifying, and making sure I'm reading that as RAW, not "as I want it to be so my character isn't totally useless in combat until he gets the form charm."

[Gensh]

So, if my MA charms are all from one style, I can use my Straight Sword form weapon and roll my full MA instead of melee?

Just verifying, and making sure I'm reading that as RAW, not "as I want it to be so my character isn't totally useless in combat until he gets the form charm."

Correct. As to your explanation, Exalted RAW is...tricky.

[Kris Strife]

Correct. As to your explanation, Exalted RAW is...tricky.

Because it was written by 4 different people who had no idea the others existed?

[Gensh]

Because it was written by 4 different people who had no idea the others existed?

No, that's WotC RAW. The only time that happened really badly for Exalted was Infernals. The main problem with Exalted RAW is that the crunch and fluff run together in places, see also: Raksha, Sidereals.

[Kris Strife]

No, that's WotC RAW. The only time that happened really badly for Exalted was Infernals. The main problem with Exalted RAW is that the crunch and fluff run together in places, see also: Raksha, Sidereals.

Actually, the Mice of the Sun write-ups were done by two different people who had no idea anyone else was working on them.

[DeadManSleeping]

Actually, the Mice of the Sun write-ups were done by two different people who had no idea anyone else was working on them.

Really? Because I can only think of one version of them.

[Kris Strife]

Really? Because I can only think of one version of them.

They're in both GotMH: UCS and CoTD: North, and have slightly different stats in each.

[Mr.Bookworm]

They're in both GotMH: UCS and CoTD: North, and have slightly different stats in each.

They don't have stats in GotMH. There's a sidebar with their picture talking about the Plague of the Sun, which the Mice can inflict, but there's no actual stats.

EDIT: No, wait, doh. I see what you're talking about. That is quite contradictory.

[Rockphed]

So, I was reading through the thread on hubristic destiny and encountered the following. Spoilered for length.

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Wednesday, 16 February 2011 11:42:12 PM(UTC)
#41


This is what happened when I first rolled on your new limit charts. A friend familiar with Exalted was with me at the time. The impact of the result was great enough to generate a vignette of spontateous roleplay, recreated below:



"I appreciate your aid, my friend."

"Of course. We are a Fellowship."

"Oh, absolutely. But I wouldn't trust just anyone to help with this--this is BIG."

"I...see that, I think. Steps, if I may, ask..."

"Ah. Allow me to anticipate your questions, Shadow. You want to know:

'Why did I search the Loom for a particular Solar shard's next Exaltation, and then reveal that secret to the Eye and Seven Despairs?'
'Why did I crash a party thrown by the god of the Linowan, and why did I spike the host's drink with quick-acting Mercury Ant venom?'
'Why did I paint a detailed mural depicting the Immaculate Dragons being [redacted] by the Unconquered Sun on the walls of the Wyld Hunt's new Chapter House?'
'Why am I clearly preparing to summon a Neomah? Why are you here, ready to cast Door of the Dead? And how does this Dreamstone of Barry Whitejade ballads factor in?'

...those are your questions, am I correct, Reckoner?"

"Those, yes. Those, and why you have a pot-helm full of Celestial Cocaine in the center of this room."

"All mysteries are resolved with but a single sentence, Black Ice Shadow, for Fate itself has come to me for succor! Strengthened by a unique regimen of resistance in the face of frequent mystical attempts to suborn my mind, I have been granted a vision of That Which Must Come To Pass! I shall save CREATION!"

"That's three sentences, Steps."

"And so we add one more! For, speaking as One Who Knows, in order to redeem an Age..."

"Five sentences, now; this is why your reports always take you a week to finish, even under the House of the Key."

"...Peleps Deled must have a child with Golden-Eyed Jorst, the birth must take place inside Cold House, and it all must happen before nightfall."

"WHAT"

"Ties everything up pretty neatly, eh?"

"...I-- I don't even..."

"Now you, too, know What Must Be!"

*sighs* "...and the Celestial Cocaine?"

"Oh, I have that because I loooove Celestial Cocaine."

"Ah. Steps, this... This sort of thing might be why Kejak has become so teary, of late."

"I think serving Samsara deserves a little reward, eh, Shadow? *Fiend Wracking Snort* BOOYAKA! Hey, sounds like the Hunt's arrived! Might as well introduce the Pinnacle to Jorst, and that means it's WINGMAN TIME, BABY! Go! Go! Go! Go!" *leaps out window towards fight, Plasma-Tongues blazing*

*stares for a long moment at his Soulsteel short daiklaives* "It's not worth the audit, it's not worth the audit, it's not worth the audit..."

I cannot help but feel that I am missing something about this. Then again, it has caused me much mirth, so I feel like sharing the pain.

I'm not sure if adding that redacted makes it better or worse. I'm thinking better since that is the only part of the whole thing that didn't live up to my personal standards for posting.

[Turalisj]

I find the whole thing funny as hell. But then, I don't like sidereals.

[Drascin]

No, that's WotC RAW. The only time that happened really badly for Exalted was Infernals. The main problem with Exalted RAW is that the crunch and fluff run together in places, see also: Raksha, Sidereals.

No, that happens a lot, actually. It hasn't been until very recently that writers actually started talking to each other. You should see the current writers' reactions on reading what the original target outline for Raksha had been when comparing to what GWM was (summing it up, it was mostly in the vein of heavy WTF).

[Yuki Akuma]

No, that's WotC RAW. The only time that happened really badly for Exalted was Infernals. The main problem with Exalted RAW is that the crunch and fluff run together in places, see also: Raksha, Sidereals.

No, really, White Wolf is awful about things like this.

Wizards of the Coast actively encourages writers to communicate. (And doesn't rely entirely on freelancers.)

[Teln]

No, that happens a lot, actually. It hasn't been until very recently that writers actually started talking to each other. You should see the current writers' reactions on reading what the original target outline for Raksha had been when comparing to what GWM was (summing it up, it was mostly in the vein of heavy WTF).

While I appreciate the summary, I'd really like to see for myself.

[Dragonus45]

So im going to be beginning my first ever exalted game in a few weeks, just made my guy yesterday and im going over some of his stuff. Im trying to make a social combat whiz, with archery for those occasions i cant talk anyone out of fighting. Any hints for what might be useful, right now im flailing around when picking my charms and abilities. 2nd edition btw.

[TheCountAlucard]

So im going to be beginning my first ever exalted game in a few weeks, just made my guy yesterday and im going over some of his stuff. Im trying to make a social combat whiz, with archery for those occasions i cant talk anyone out of fighting. Any hints for what might be useful, right now im flailing around when picking my charms and abilities. 2nd edition btw.

Are you playing a Solar?

It'd help if we knew what you had so far.

Also, just my opinion, but defense is probably going to be more important to you than offense if social stuff breaks down; might I recommend a couple of Dodge Charms if you're going the archery route?

[Dragonus45]

Are you playing a Solar?

It'd help if we knew what you had so far.

Also, just my opinion, but defense is probably going to be more important to you than offense if social stuff breaks down; might I recommend a couple of Dodge Charms if you're going the archery route?

My bad, im an eclipse solar. So dodge charms then? Should i lose a archery charms i picked up then? I know i dont need to do a whole lot since so mane other people are being offensive. But i dont want to be to useless when the bodies start dropping.

[Xefas]

Im trying to make a social combat whiz, with archery for those occasions i cant talk anyone out of fighting. Any hints for what might be useful, right now im flailing around when picking my charms and abilities. 2nd edition btw.

My favorite Solar social charm is Memory-Reweaving Discipline. Just throwing that out there.

And, as an Eclipse, your most awesome combat option available is unequivocally Mind-Hand Manipulation. You don't even need a combat ability for it! Think of all the XP you'll save when you can just beat people to death with telekinesis.

[Guancyto]

>_>

That's expensive!

Seriously though, when you're just starting out if you have Shadow Over Water and Seven Shadows Evasion you're golden for Dodge Charms.

[Tavar]

While I appreciate the summary, I'd really like to see for myself.

Here's a general source of author quotes.

Here's the quote regarding the Fair Folk.

Secret History Of The Raksha

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Okay.
Some names have been withheld to protect those involved, not that any of them have written an Exalted book in years.

This is the tale of how the Fair Folk became the raksha, and why I go into full-body convulsions of laughter when people on RPGnet bemoan how I wrecked the perfectly-calibrated artistry of Graceful Wicked Masques and E:tFF.

I'm a bit of a packrat and social archeologist. I like knowing stuff about my predecessors, their processes, and generally what happened before I came along. So, ever since I got a single toe backstage, I've been collecting outlines, ancient messageboard posts, and minor memoranda having to do with Exalted's design. I mentioned a while back that I have all of Compass: Malfeas in raw draft form; I also have a bunch of 2e Compass and Manual outlines, including GWM, and some other stuff. The crown jewel of my collection, which I only came into possession of a few months ago (October-ish?) is the outline for Exalted: the Fair Folk. I prize Grabowski-artifacts most of all.

I read it and my mind was blown, because it describes something bold and exciting and enticing and not even slightly resembling Exalted: the Fair Folk. The "near-extinct exiles stranded in the house of the Primordials" angle that GWM 2.0 introduced is straight out of Grabowski's outline. Grabowski wanted the Fair Folk to look like a terrifying, alien invading force to the Creation-born, but wanted the experience of playing one to be that of playing exiled nobility in an alien world—cool, mighty, refugees, decimated in number, unable to return home because of the feeding frenzy going on out there in the Wyld.

The outline also called for Fair Folk to only be able to reproduce within Creation at a very slow rate. Boy did that not happen.

Most of all, though, the outline demanded that its writers be magnificent and creative and live up to the standard of Exalted, which is to say, he commanded them to exercise their brilliance and make the raksha weird and unique and not at all like standard eurofae. The eurofae trappings (Fair Folk, Faerieland, stolen Changeling: the Dreaming terms) would be laid over something weird and new and unique to Exalted.

(He also had some choice words about Pooka and Pooka fans.)

Everything past this point is secondhand, so I may have some of the details wrong, but essentially:

So, as will happen with these things, deadlines were tight, the project ran late, and the drafts came in, far too late for a total rewrite of the book, and several of the authors had pretty much ignored Geoff's outline and gave him standard eurofae tropes all over the place. The "the last remnants of a mighty alien race stranded in a foreign world" angle was completely not implemented at all, as you may remember if you ever read the book. Balor was implemented as a completely different character than he was supposed to be.

In a desperate bid to shift the tone of the book toward the exotic, Grabowski tore out the eurofae language completely, and he and Jenna filled the book with hindu mythology and sanskrit terms. Jenna went into overdrive to make the book as exotic and evocative and metaphysically resonant and strange as she could within her sections—the brilliance and failure of Exalted: the Fair Folk is largely the result of Grabowski and Rebecca Borgstrom performing triage on a compound cluster**** with NO time remaining before final deadlines, basically. This is the point where Faerieland became Rakshastan, and the Fair Folk became raksha.

Through no fault of their own, the 2e guys then went into the resulting mess with the mandate to make it more approachable, not armed with any of this background knowledge, and gave it a straight facelift. I believe I'm the only person who's worked on Fair Folk in second edition with a complete record of their concept history across both editions.

And here's one regarding Lunars.
Where It All Went Wrong

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Okay.

Basically, the Fair Folk outline helped me out tremendously. Grabowski had a strong vision for Fair Folk which got dropped down a storm drain somewhere between the outline and the 1e book's publication and was never recovered.

At least, not until I put some gum on the end of a stick and Jesus I'm torturing this metaphor to death. Um. Well, you know how that turned out.

So I went to all this trouble to get the Lunars outline hoping it would be a similar situation- here's the complex, nuanced, thoughtful original design blueprint for what the Lunars were supposed to be before the devils of miscommunication and poor impleme-

No. Not so much.

I love Geoff, he is my favorite game designer to have ever walked the earth, but in this case a bad book grew out of a bad outline (I think it was written before the corebook was even on store shelves)-AND there was at least one last-minute writer substitution that I know of for certain. Maybe more.

There was no original guiding vision for where the Lunars fit into the greater scheme of things. The outline is about doing up the Barbaric Exalted, simple as that—sure, there are some Lunars that aren't barbarians, but they're outside the book's scope of interest the same way outcaste DBs were outside the scope of their hardback.

It was very much intended to be a book about introducing the Conan savage fantasy milieu to Exalted. And as such, it is the only time I've ever seen Grabowski instruct his authors to write with a bias- downplay the usual Exalted nitty-gritty realism, downplay the missing teeth and lack of toilets, and emphasize that these are REAL MEN living REAL LIVES who spit on the soft decadence of civilization! I'm guessing this book's calamitous failure is the reason every subsequent Exalted book assumed a tone-neutral style of delivery rather than the splat-slant practice of the old WoD.

The word 'rape' doesn't appear anywhere in the outline, amusingly enough.

Neither does the word 'chimera.'

There's no thought given to Lunars in the larger context of the setting because the book doesn't care about mixed games-it shares this failing with all of the 1e hardbacks. The outline is totally about the barbarian swords-and-sandals genre experience.

So what actually went wrong with the hardback is that the authors clearly wanted to do the no-toilets cultural anthropology thing, and had to fight their instinct to do realpolitik barbarians and balance that against Grabowski's mandate to focus on Conan chasing down the ice giant's daughter so he could rape her. They wanted to talk about marginalization of fringe societies, Grabowski wanted Thundarr and Princess Ariel stalking Fair Folk through someone's ruined First Age shopping mall. (Horrifyingly, the actual Lunars ended up more as Ookla the Mok. Augh.) The result is a cluster**** that yaws back and forth between the two tones; and while I won't name names, the guys who handled chapters one and two are some of White Wolf's best writers. Their particular talents were ill-suited for the assignment and directions, is all.

Grabowski's mandate not to make the Lunars Garou or fera was roundly ignored as well, naturally.

In essence, folks, this is not Graceful Wicked Masques. There is no powerful original guiding vision to return the Lunars to.

It's all down to us.

Now, it had some good ideas, as well, things that were not followed up on, and you'll be seeing them as new Lunar material rolls out- I won't spoil that yet.

The other good news is, we're up to the task, and already have the really tricky issues solved. Now it's just a matter of a hell of a lot of cleanup and actually implementing all those ideas.

[Gensh]

No, really, White Wolf is awful about things like this.

Wizards of the Coast actively encourages writers to communicate. (And doesn't rely entirely on freelancers.)

The WW writers at least have enough decency to try to patch things together, though. Compare the confusion of shadowcrafter/shadowcraft mage/shadowsmith, demonbinder/fiendbinder, and my favorite, shadowstriking/shadowstriking.

[Turalisj]

Or how about:

"You are now limited to 1 astral construct at any one time" or "psionic powers that deal damage types (slashing/piercing/bludgeoning) are now subject to damage resistance".

[Yuki Akuma]

Or how about:

"You are now limited to 1 astral construct at any one time" or "psionic powers that deal damage types (slashing/piercing/bludgeoning) are now subject to damage resistance".

That's stealth errata. White Wolf does it a hell of a lot more often.

Look, I know White Wolf has a ton of very vocal fanboys, but the companies really are as bad as each other.

[TheCountAlucard]

The WW writers at least have enough decency to try to patch things together, though. Compare the confusion of shadowcrafter/shadowcraft mage/shadowsmith, demonbinder/fiendbinder, and my favorite, shadowstriking/shadowstriking.

What about the option of playing a Beguiler Beguiler? Or an anthropomorphic bear werebear bear totem barbarian/bearlord/bear warrior?

[Turalisj]

That's stealth errata. White Wolf does it a hell of a lot more often.

No, that's taking out the spiked bat of nerfing and beating something to death.