OOTS #811 - The Discussion Thread

[Forikroder]

@gusion
you still havent mentioned any other spell combination guranteed to kill Nale even if he does make his saves even assuming he has access to sestruction it would be safer to gow ith a Harm+QIM since even if he makes his saves Nale still dies

and with +9 BaB + any modifiers he may have he had to have rolled like a 1 to have even missed Nale

[Jay R]

Roy killed Thog; Belkar killed Yikyik; Durkon chased Hilgya away. V defeated Z.

Malack would happily gank someone else's personal nemesis without thinking twice. It would be a hilarious anti-climax - plus, you know, revenge. Which is always a nice perk.

But the Giant is doing the whole "team comic" thing, and that means not letting someone fulfill someone else's narrative role.

In other words, it's Elan's job to kill Nale, not Malack's

[RLivengood]

On one hand, I feel upset that the narcissistic serial killer villain got away. On the other hand, I'm happy that the same character, who I find completely hilarious, is still in the comic.
I feel so conflicted.

[theNater]

Fair enough, I hadn't considered his ECL. Even adding that in though, I would have expected both him and Tarquin to be around 17-18 (so Malack around 14-15)...

It's possible that Malack is a few levels behind Tarquin, especially if his frail health has caused him to need to be raised from the dead on occasion.

[derfenrirwolv]

Malack would happily gank someone else's personal nemesis without thinking twice. It would be a hilarious anti-climax - plus, you know, revenge. Which is always a nice perk.

I think Malack has a higher claim on Nale as his personal nemesis than Elan does. Two dead kids> 2 ridiculously circuitous attempts to kill you that you survived.

[Forealms]

But the Giant is doing the whole "team comic" thing, and that means not letting someone fulfill someone else's narrative role.

In other words, it's Elan's job to kill Nale, not Malack's

You know, reminding me of this makes me feel better about this comic, though I wouldn't have minded if Malack finished him. Perhaps it will be all the more satisfying when Elan finally does take Nale down.

It's possible that Malack is a few levels behind Tarquin, especially if his frail health has caused him to need to be raised from the dead on occasion.

That seems like the most reasonable explanation for Malack's (seemingly) low level. Suddenly, this comic is looking perfectly planned, instead of acceptable.

Since, if I were Malack and had higher level spells, I would definitely have spent these last few years planning the perfect method with which to defeat Nale, and would have those spells prepared every day. It's not like he comes across a life-threatening challenge every day in his rather cushy position.

[Forikroder]

i dont get how almost dropping nale in a single round means malack is low level somehow i fail to see the logic there

[pendell]

Roy killed Thog; Belkar killed Yikyik; Durkon chased Hilgya away. V defeated Z.

Malack would happily gank someone else's personal nemesis without thinking twice. It would be a hilarious anti-climax - plus, you know, revenge. Which is always a nice perk.

But the Giant is doing the whole "team comic" thing, and that means not letting someone fulfill someone else's narrative role.

In other words, it's Elan's job to kill Nale, not Malack's

Ah, but would Elan kill Nale? Twice he has had the opportunity, and twice he has refused, remanding Nale to someone else's custody each time.

And because of that -- each and every time -- innocent people have died. When Elan let him go in Durkon's dungeon, innocents died in cliffport. When he was let go in the Sapphire City, several guards died during the escape attempt.

It'd be nice to believe that Elan would make the connection and do what needs doing, but he has no INT or WIS.

In point of fact, I've never known him to kill another human being. And he always takes the surrender of the bad guys, even someone like Kubota.

So if this story depends on Elan killing Nale, this story will never end. Elan is an innocent airhead, and changing him into a person who would cold-bloodedly kill a villain -- and I guarantee Nale would surrender if Elan was winning and Nale had no escape -- would break Elan's character quite badly. No matter what else happened in the story, the "Elan" we know and love would be gone forever. In his place would be someone else. He may have the same name and be drawn the same way, but the heart would be irrevocably different.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[SGNenets]

Sooo, I see that Malack's possible low level is still being debated, but my point has somehow conveniently been forgotten.

Can someone explain why Nale would be more worried about Durkon than Malack if Malack's a lower level cleric than Durkon?

(and no, "because Durkon's been level-drained" doesn't work, since then he would have said "two clerics is one too many, especially since one hasn't been drained" instead of mentioning the specific name of the person he is concerned about)

[Icedaemon]

{Scrubbed}

[whitemane]

I just had a thought as to Nales seeming to not know about Mallack's family. What if Tarquin killed Mallack's children and framed Nale for it so that he could manipulate Mallack to his needs? It has just the right touch of manipulation for Tarquin...

(Hey, it worked for Palpatine and Darth Vader...)

[Forikroder]

I just had a thought as to Nales seeming to not know about Mallack's family. What if Tarquin killed Mallack's children and framed Nale for it so that he could manipulate Mallack to his needs? It has just the right touch of manipulation for Tarquin...

(Hey, it worked for Palpatine and Darth Vader...)

no that was jsut Nale being Nale and trying to make sure Malack wasnt thinking too clearly

plus the EoB was (from Tarquins explanation) a relatively late empire for them and theyve already been through a bunch so theres no reason tot hink Malack would need any motivation, if anything he would ahve wanted to help Tarquin more when he ahd kids since once the plan is done hell have a very cushy safe position with no worry about getting attacked and can raise his children in safety and rich

[danielmayer]

Oh, I'm quite sure Malack is near or beyond epic level. Since he first used (one of) his heal spell(s) in Strip 718, I immediately thought "huh, quite fast spending higher level spells". After all, a cure critical or even cure serious would've been more than enough for the time being.
No cleric uses 5th or 6th level slots in non-climatic events, presumably in the early day, if he hasn't something better in reserve...
I'm waiting for the next Giant!! :)

Edit: And don't forget Strip 5 in 725, "Malack was an old adventuring pal of mine, he [...] offered me a job as chief warlord"... same or higher level as Tarquin is my bet.

[Da'Shain]

Sooo, I see that Malack's possible low level is still being debated, but my point has somehow conveniently been forgotten.

Can someone explain why Nale would be more worried about Durkon than Malack if Malack's a lower level cleric than Durkon?

(and no, "because Durkon's been level-drained" doesn't work, since then he would have said "two clerics is one too many, especially since one hasn't been drained" instead of mentioning the specific name of the person he is concerned about)

Actually him being level drained TWICE does work as a partial reason, but the other major one is that Malack WILL kill Nale at his earliest convenience, whereas Durkon is far more likely to just be a healbot and possibly Hulk out with his hammer. The Guild has studied the Order, and while Durkon is no pushover, past experience suggests he prefers to aid his teammates rather than straight out kill things himself. Malack, as both a lizardman with a grudge and a cleric of Death itself, has no such compunctions.

Plus Malack is more likely to have some sort of spell/signal which will bring the entire EoB down on the Linear Guild's heads, a la the hobbos in Gobbotopia.

Well he did suck, I agree. I'd just hope an entire empire that frequently conquests other empires would have a little better than a single city's resources.

The Empire itself may have a more powerful standing army (although Azure City's was nothing to sneer at even with all of its paladins out of the battle proper AND with, what, two thirds of the army having sailed away with the lords?), but that doesn't mean Malack himself is higher level or that he's even bothered to take part in any sort of adventuring/combat anytime recently.

The imp specifically says wizards. I took that as a reference to the pathetic 1d4 hit points wizards get per level. The system is geared towards killing them off but that doesn't mean you can generalize it to all characters.

I took that, combined with Belkar's comment about there possibly not even being any clerics past 17th level besides Redcloak, as an indicator that very few people make it to the levels that the OotS have, and even fewer make it beyond.

Fair enough, I hadn't considered his ECL. Even adding that in though, I would have expected both him and Tarquin to be around 17-18 (so Malack around 14-15)...

Why, though? I mean, I get why people think dramatically Tarquin and gang outlevel the OotS, but the only real display of their power we've seen is Malack's willingness to use high-level spell slots (which could just be because he's that kind of person) and Tarquin's handling of Elan (which, TBH, Roy could do just as easily at this point; in Elan's own words, he's only mildly competent nowadays in a straight fight).

Given what we know about the world, I think it's safer to assume they're they're at most one or two levels higher and possibly lower, and works just as well.

I'll think about it. I was always assuming he was higher than level 12.

Yeah, I can't think of a better combo for a one-round kill, myself. If we bring 7th level (core) spells in, his best bet is Destruction, but if Nale makes his save then he only takes 10d6 which probably won't put him at death's door, and saves are one of the easier things to buff compared to touch AC. So both options have their own strengths and weaknesses.

As a side note ... damn but Destruction's so much better than Finger of Death. 10d6 vs 3d6+caster level? And works on nonliving creatures? AND preventing all but the highest levels of resurrection? Jeez.

[butterbow]

So if this story depends on Elan killing Nale, this story will never end.

What if something happens to Nale, that reduces his intelligence to something Thog-like? Give him a bucket full of puppies and one full of ice-cream and he would be quite a nice person (and he doesn't have the strength to smash puny humans). An ending like this would free Elan from the need to kill him - and suit to his phrophesised happy ending.

[Chad30]

I think it's quite possible for Nale to die since he's not the main villain. Xykon is. Or those three guys. Nale is too low on the list to have Joker Immunity.

[Gift Jeraff]

Nale is too low on the list to have Joker Immunity.

What is this "list" gauged by?

He's foreshadowed in the 15th strip and was planned to be a recurring villain from the start. I'd say that puts him up there with Xykon and Redcloak. Which is how he ranks in terms of appearances.

[kojar]

Spoiler

Show

Mallak: I thught you said he was dead!
I did but it is not dramaticaly appropriate to act of that knowledge
Malak: ....You are just like your father aren`t you?
Please don`t say that ever again
Malak: no I mean on the whole dramatic thing
Yeah, I guess we did bond on that

Just like his talk with nale (the last two lines)

[Chad30]

What is this "list" gauged by?

He's foreshadowed in the 15th strip and was planned to be a recurring villain from the start. I'd say that puts him up there with Xykon and Redcloak. Which is how he ranks in terms of appearances.

It may just be me, but I don't see him as important in the grand scheme as the other villains. The Linear Guild seems more like a quirky miniboss squad. Xykon's like the big bad, and the three creatures are like the men behind the man.

I could just be misinterpreting things, though. They're definitely psycho rangers.

[Kish]

Gah, TvTropes titles.

I agree that Xykon is far more of a main villain than the Linear Guild could ever be.

I don't agree that the IFCC (I take it that's who "those three guys" means) is in the same league at all. Xykon and his group are first-stringer villains. The Linear Guild is second-string. The IFCC is third-string, with a lot of raw power but far less narrative significance than the Linear Guild.

[Chad30]

I had forgotten their title, but IFCC. Yes. Also yes I am a troper. TV Tropes can enhance and ruin your life. Fear and respect it.

[Gusion]

@gusion
you still havent mentioned any other spell combination guranteed to kill Nale even if he does make his saves even assuming he has access to sestruction it would be safer to gow ith a Harm+QIM since even if he makes his saves Nale still dies

and with +9 BaB + any modifiers he may have he had to have rolled like a 1 to have even missed Nale

I... don't even know what half of that is intended to mean. Regardless, I do have a job and don't play all day on the Internet.

It really depends on his Malack's actual level. If he is level 15+ (which I maintain he really must be), I'd start with a dimensional lock. He could even follow it with a quickened sending to inform Tarquin. At that point they aren't easily escaping. Next round he can cast harm followed by mass inflict light wounds - or destruction if he needed something ranged.

If he really is level 12... ug. No great answers. Dimensional anchor isn't a bad idea but then you have to make a choice between chances of missing a touch attack and him getting his will save. The answer depends on Malack's stats so that's hard to answer... if he's rolling a 26 Wisdom (e.g. with a Periapt of Wisdom +6) than the will save is 22. But maybe his Holiness who will waste a heal on a captured prisoner has a low Wisdom score too, so he decided to try a touch attack against a rogue.

Alas.

[Forikroder]

What if something happens to Nale, that reduces his intelligence to something Thog-like? Give him a bucket full of puppies and one full of ice-cream and he would be quite a nice person (and he doesn't have the strength to smash puny humans). An ending like this would free Elan from the need to kill him - and suit to his phrophesised happy ending.

people would say Roy would never kill Thog yet hes currently burried under toons of rooble

Elan is a bard, hell obviously fight Nale, beat him to a standstill then Nale will die from some accident caused by his own stupidity, perhaps trying to grapple charge Elan while there standing on a cliff or getting caught in his own trap

[Forikroder]

I... don't even know what half of that is intended to mean. Regardless, I do have a job and don't play all day on the Internet.

It really depends on his Malack's actual level. If he is level 15+ (which I maintain he really must be), I'd start with a dimensional lock. He could even follow it with a quickened sending to inform Tarquin. At that point they aren't easily escaping. Next round he can cast harm followed by mass inflict light wounds - or destruction if he needed something ranged.

If he really is level 12... ug. No great answers. Dimensional anchor isn't a bad idea but then you have to make a choice between chances of missing a touch attack and him getting his will save. The answer depends on Malack's stats so that's hard to answer... if he's rolling a 26 Wisdom (e.g. with a Periapt of Wisdom +6) than the will save is 22. But maybe his Holiness who will waste a heal on a captured prisoner has a low Wisdom score too, so he decided to try a touch attack against a rogue.

Alas.

so if someone killed your kids, then you found in your home trying to kill your guests and you had the ability to kill him easily, your first course of action would be to lock the door and call the Police?
Malack wanted BLOOD he wanted Nale lying dead at his feet so he went for the first round kill

besides Clerics dont have much in the way of ranged attack spells, he wastes his round on non-combat spells (and quickened sending? is that a joke?) then Sabine can jsut fly them both out of there

and have you considered he wasnt really wasting a heal since he had so many 6th level spell slots available he ahd no problem throwing one or two away?

as for a destruction +inflict mass light wounds combo if Nale makes his save (and lets be honest Nale has plot armour so WHEN nale makes his save) it only hits him with a piddly 10d6 damage so Nale could shrug both spells off and make his escape
harm is a guranteed 75 damage (far more then the at msot 60 from destruction) + followed by a moderate wound (which im too lazy to look up the exact numbers)

Malacks strategy was pretty prudent and extremely powerful

[Whiffet]

Yeah, could people stop bringing up plot armor? It implies the belief that Nale should be dead. That there's no reasonable in-story explanation for his survival. Maybe the people saying it only mean Nale can't die yet because he still has a part in the story, but that isn't what it sounds like to me.

Besides, I wouldn't be so sure that Nale will live. We've been surprised before, you know. We don't know because we don't know what the Giant has planned. As far as we know, Nale's part of the story ends in this arc.

[Gusion]

so if someone killed your kids, then you found in your home trying to kill your guests and you had the ability to kill him easily, your first course of action would be to lock the door and call the Police?
Malack wanted BLOOD he wanted Nale lying dead at his feet so he went for the first round kill

besides Clerics dont have much in the way of ranged attack spells, he wastes his round on non-combat spells (and quickened sending? is that a joke?) then Sabine can jsut fly them both out of there

and have you considered he wasnt really wasting a heal since he had so many 6th level spell slots available he ahd no problem throwing one or two away?

The first rule of killing the enemy is keeping them from getting away.

The quickened sending was partially a joke, but if Tarquin is as smart as he seems there is probably a standing order to be told immediately upon sight of Nale. I'm making an assumption.

Yes, she could move to pick him up and start to fly away. If you're really worried about that than Malack could have done a quickened dismissal to get rid of Sabine and then done the Dimensional Lock. Then followed up next round with his Harm and quickened inflict.

[thereaper]

Corpses aren't known for their evasive capabilities.

[Vemynal]

Elan killing Nale wouldn't be breaking character, it would be character growth. Painful character growth at that.

[RatGirl]

The first rule of killing the enemy is keeping them from getting away.

Killing them is a pretty sure-fire way to prevent them from getting away.

The quickened sending was partially a joke, but if Tarquin is as smart as he seems there is probably a standing order to be told immediately upon sight of Nale. I'm making an assumption.

A fairly big one, yes. Quickened sending is an 8th level slot. Tying up one of your most powerful spell slots when you could just say "hey nearby guard, go tell Tarquin" seems excessive. Assuming Malack even HAS 8th level spells.

Yes, she could move to pick him up and start to fly away. If you're really worried about that than Malack could have done a quickened dismissal to get rid of Sabine and then done the Dimensional Lock. Then followed up next round with his Harm and quickened inflict.

Your keep arguing from the standpoint that seems to imply Malack a) knew they were there, b) was prepped for that specific fight at all times, and c) thought Nale was still alive in the first place.

Why on earth would Malack run around with quickened dismissal prepped? That's an 8th level slot, and only for EXTREMELY specific circumstances.

As people keep pointing out, Malack reacted in a very tactical, and very lethal way. Harm + QIMW is about 100 damage if the target MAKES their save. If they fail, it's closer to 150-175. That's enough to one-shot just about anyone. Especially a dilletante with a bunch of sorc levels.

[hamishspence]

That rule was broken a long, long time ago when it became obvious that the Lawful Good Durkon worships the Chaotic Good Thor. It's not even a hard and fast rule in D&D proper--there are certain D&D worlds (I forget which ones) where there are no alignment restrictions on clerics and their gods.

Eberron, most notably. In Faerun, there are occasional case-by-case exceptions- where the deity allows a wider range of alignments than normal.