OOTS #811 - The Discussion Thread

[Kish]

If [Malack] is level 15+ (which I maintain he really must be),

Why must he be?

[ORione]

I think Malack has a higher claim on Nale as his personal nemesis than Elan does. Two dead kids> 2 ridiculously circuitous attempts to kill you that you survived.

Ah, but Elan has protagonist priveleges.

Since, if I were Malack and had higher level spells, I would definitely have spent these last few years planning the perfect method with which to defeat Nale, and would have those spells prepared every day. It's not like he comes across a life-threatening challenge every day in his rather cushy position.

But Malack thought Nale was dead.

[mawexzon]

Eberron, most notably. In Faerun, there are occasional case-by-case exceptions- where the deity allows a wider range of alignments than normal.

Actually, i remember that Rich posted in the forum that Thor's alignment is Neutral good

[hamishspence]

Must have been a while back- I tried looking it up using the search engine, but no luck. Though at the time I was focusing more on the question-

"is OOTS Thor based more on Marvel Thor than D&D Thor?"

[North_Ranger]

Oh, and I forgot. Still no "Masked Debt Gourd"... guess Thor is impotent.

Oh really now?

[Kish]

Actually, i remember that Rich posted in the forum that Thor's alignment is Neutral good

PICS OR IT DIDN'T HAP--

*ahem*

I mean, are you quite certain you read Rich Burlew, the poster posting as The Giant, post "in OotS Thor's alignment is Neutral Good"? It wasn't, perhaps, that someone else on the forum said he'd said that?

[orrion]

It's possible that Malack is a few levels behind Tarquin, especially if his frail health has caused him to need to be raised from the dead on occasion.

To my knowledge, natural death (aka old age or sickness) can't be reversed with resurrections.

Maybe you mean Malack died in combat because of his frail health? I guess that's possible.

[Doug Lampert]

I... don't even know what half of that is intended to mean. Regardless, I do have a job and don't play all day on the Internet.

It really depends on his Malack's actual level. If he is level 15+ (which I maintain he really must be), I'd start with a dimensional lock. He could even follow it with a quickened sending to inform Tarquin.

Sending: Casting Time: 10 minutes
Quicken: A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened.

And if he's level 15 (Cleric +2 RHD +1 LA for an effective character level of 18 assuming he's a lizard folk) then he's got 3 or so level 8 slots assuming 26+ wisdom (and one of those is a domain slot). What are the odds he has an appropriate quickened level 4 spell? Seriously? Casters use their highest slots for high level spells, it's the level 6-7 slots that hold quickened utility spells for a level 15 caster.

He needs to be effective character level EPIC for it to be really plausible that he's wasting level 8 or higher slots on quickened spells.

The people who CLAIM there's a better tactic are CONSISTENT about suggesting things that are outright impossible, violations of the rules, or FAR less effective, and then claiming it's a joke.

If you SERIOUSLY think there's a better tactic then suggest it. As is the claimants that there's a better tactic are so consistent about claiming that the REST of their posts are jokes that I believe that the claim itself is a joke, and a poor one at that.

Yes, there are better ways to kill someone, but not many and none that don't use noticably higher level spells or require special preparation.

Dimensional Anchor? Nale dispels and Sabine plane shifts or flies them both. How good! At least its good for Nale. A method which needs a touch attack AND Nale to fail a caster check or it has no chance at all instead of a 90% chance of dead. Quickened Dimentional Anchor + Destruction is an 8th level slot and a 7th level slot for about as good a chance as what Malack did with two sixth level slots.

Is there a point to that sort of stunt other than trying to waste higher level slots for less effect?

Even given a dimentional anchor, that's another touch attack, it's just as likely to miss as the inflict, and inflict results in DEAD Nale while DA results in Nale unhurt and able to escape in any of half a dozen plausible ways.

[Warren Dew]

I mean, are you quite certain you read Rich Burlew, the poster posting as The Giant, post "in OotS Thor's alignment is Neutral Good"? It wasn't, perhaps, that someone else on the forum said he'd said that?

What he has said is the Durkon is lawful good:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...php?p=11507958

I believe people are assuming that by the D&D "one step" rule for clerics, this would make Thor neutral good rather than chaotic good. That seems a reasonable assumption to me, though I haven't seen it explicitly stated by Rich.

[theNater]

To my knowledge, natural death (aka old age or sickness) can't be reversed with resurrections.

Maybe you mean Malack died in combat because of his frail health? I guess that's possible.

Yeah, I meant the in combat thing.

And with Malack being the cleric, it's likely that the team's best resurrection spells are unusable while he's dead.

[Larrion]

Durkon and Malack both make me feel better about playing a cleric in my games. I always felt like a walking Heal-in-a-Can but they've shown on a regular basis that doesn't always have to be the case.

[derfenrirwolv]

On that note, i think that was the first time we've seen someone cast defensively in combat. Normally in oots casting next to melee gets you whacked.

[Forikroder]

On that note, i think that was the first time we've seen someone cast defensively in combat. Normally in oots casting next to melee gets you whacked.

V did it once in the dungeon of Dorukon

[Warren Dew]

To my knowledge, natural death (aka old age or sickness) can't be reversed with resurrections.

Maybe you mean Malack died in combat because of his frail health? I guess that's possible.

Perhaps it's the other way around: Malack's health is frail because he's had to be raised so many times.

[Sith_Happens]

Ah, but would Elan kill Nale? Twice he has had the opportunity, and twice he has refused, remanding Nale to someone else's custody each time.

And because of that -- each and every time -- innocent people have died. When Elan let him go in Durkon's dungeon, innocents died in cliffport. When he was let go in the Sapphire City, several guards died during the escape attempt.

It'd be nice to believe that Elan would make the connection and do what needs doing, but he has no INT or WIS.

In point of fact, I've never known him to kill another human being. And he always takes the surrender of the bad guys, even someone like Kubota.

So if this story depends on Elan killing Nale, this story will never end. Elan is an innocent airhead, and changing him into a person who would cold-bloodedly kill a villain -- and I guarantee Nale would surrender if Elan was winning and Nale had no escape -- would break Elan's character quite badly. No matter what else happened in the story, the "Elan" we know and love would be gone forever. In his place would be someone else. He may have the same name and be drawn the same way, but the heart would be irrevocably different.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Disintegrate. Gust of Wind. Now can we PLEASE resume saving the world?

Yes, no matter what happens up to that point, Elan would most likely accept Nale's surrender if it came down to it, and yes, if given the chance Nale will always escape and cause more trouble/murder. Hence why V is around: to solve Elan's pitiful moral quandary. You yourself cited Kubota, and look at how surrendering worked out for him.

[ORione]

Disintegrate. Gust of Wind. Now can we PLEASE resume saving the world?

Yes, no matter what happens up to that point, Elan would most likely accept Nale's surrender if it came down to it, and yes, if given the chance Nale will always escape and cause more trouble/murder. Hence why V is around: to solve Elan's pitiful moral quandary. You yourself cited Kubota, and look at how surrendering worked out for him.

But now V's listening to Blackwing and trying to avoid evil.

[Warren Dew]

But now V's listening to Blackwing and trying to avoid evil.

Bad news for innocent unnamed characters!

[Shoelessgdowar]

Sending: Casting Time: 10 minutes
Quicken: A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened.

And if he's level 15 (Cleric +2 RHD +1 LA for an effective character level of 18 assuming he's a lizard folk) then he's got 3 or so level 8 slots assuming 26+ wisdom (and one of those is a domain slot). What are the odds he has an appropriate quickened level 4 spell? Seriously? Casters use their highest slots for high level spells, it's the level 6-7 slots that hold quickened utility spells for a level 15 caster.

He needs to be effective character level EPIC for it to be really plausible that he's wasting level 8 or higher slots on quickened spells.

The people who CLAIM there's a better tactic are CONSISTENT about suggesting things that are outright impossible, violations of the rules, or FAR less effective, and then claiming it's a joke.

If you SERIOUSLY think there's a better tactic then suggest it. As is the claimants that there's a better tactic are so consistent about claiming that the REST of their posts are jokes that I believe that the claim itself is a joke, and a poor one at that.

Yes, there are better ways to kill someone, but not many and none that don't use noticably higher level spells or require special preparation.

Dimensional Anchor? Nale dispels and Sabine plane shifts or flies them both. How good! At least its good for Nale. A method which needs a touch attack AND Nale to fail a caster check or it has no chance at all instead of a 90% chance of dead. Quickened Dimentional Anchor + Destruction is an 8th level slot and a 7th level slot for about as good a chance as what Malack did with two sixth level slots.

Is there a point to that sort of stunt other than trying to waste higher level slots for less effect?

Even given a dimentional anchor, that's another touch attack, it's just as likely to miss as the inflict, and inflict results in DEAD Nale while DA results in Nale unhurt and able to escape in any of half a dozen plausible ways.

Okay, I'm first going to clarify my perceptions, understanding that others may or may not agree with me on these points, but the clarification will allow a basis of understanding to work from.

I, like Durkon, am going to take Malack's word that neither he nor his deity are evil, but actually neutral on the good/evil axis.
I'm going to take from his allegiance to the government ideas and Tarquin that Malack is Lawful on the Law/Chaos axis.
Now, despite his statement to the contrary, I'm going to take from the actions of Nale's past, his rampant breach of laws in three different places (Cliffport, Azure City, and Empire of Blood) that he is in fact not actually Lawful Evil, but has become Neutral Evil or more likely Chaotic Evil (I accept he may have been born and reared LE, but even before the Dungeon of Durokon he'd had an alignment shift towards if not entirely to chaos, so he is no longer Lawful, and it was already obvious to Tarquin and Malack due to his unlawful acts against the various governments of the Western Continent).
Likewise I think Sabine has proven she is not a Lawful entity either.
The's facts all lead to the main spell I've said repeatedly (never joking) would be the ideal choice: 1) In general to have prepared or chosen (if Law domain is one of the domains he picked besides destruction) in general as it is a good spell to handle any unlawful foes of equal or lower level, 2) It (under the perceptions of Malack's Lawfulness and Sabine and Nale's lack of Lawfulness) would also have been an immediate neutralizer of both Sabine and Nale, 3) Provides no saves for Nale and only a save for Sabine against being banished to her home plane (which if she fails she is gone for 24 hours, if she succeeds she still gets no saves for the other effects which still would affect her like Nale). That Spell is Dictum which is Level 7 in both Law Domain and Cleric, and the only possible drawback is if Elan's negative levels count against his actual level for the purposes of the spell and made him 10 or more levels lower then Malack that it would kill Elan.
Dictum would have deafened Sabine, Nale, and Elan (So none of them can hear the others or what spell is coming next), it would have slowed for 2d4 rounds Sabine, Nale, and Elan (So that means more time for both Durkon and Malack to cast further spells on Nale and Sabine), it possibly would have paralyzed for 1d10 minutes Elan, Nale, and Sabine (so even more time to do whatever to Sabine and Nale), and yes, it might have killed Elan (Which still means he could have been raised or resurrected), oh, and at a -4 penalty to her Will Save, it may have banished Sabine to her home plane for at least 24 hours (no way to get her back for 24 hours, period, no spell or ability from anyone else or herself, she is stuck in her home plane for a minimum of 24 hours if she fails the will save which as stated is penalized -4 so it isn't even her full will save but a weaker one, which means if she fails it Nale is alone at the mercy of Durkon, Malack, and maybe Elan. And even if Elan died, Malack has a minimum of 2 rounds to restore Durkon and Elan as well as cast other spells on Nale, and I really shouldn't need to say how reamed Nale is when he is deaf, slowed, and maybe paralyzed vs a full powered Malack, Durkon, and maybe Elan... seriously, they could leave Elan deaf, slow, paralyzed, and even dead for 10 minutes to make sure Nale is not able to due anything).

After Dictum was cast, then Malack would have had time and initiative to do all kinds of things. It would have easily have been an appropriate spell to be prepped every day for any Lawful Cleric who can cast it (especially if you have the Law Domain), as it is only useless against 1/3rd of opponents and they're all Lawful ones, which makes them supposedly easier to deal with (Miko, Wrong-Eye/Redcloak/Crimson Mantle, Tarquin, are all obviously proof that this is not always true, but every rule has to have its powerful exceptions).

[hamishspence]

Now, despite his statement to the contrary, I'm going to take from the actions of Nale's past, his rampant breach of laws in three different places (Cliffport, Azure City, and Empire of Blood) that he is in fact not actually Lawful Evil, but has become Neutral Evil or more likely Chaotic Evil (I accept he may have been born and reared LE, but even before the Dungeon of Durokon he'd had an alignment shift towards if not entirely to chaos, so he is no longer Lawful, and it was already obvious to Tarquin and Malack due to his unlawful acts against the various governments of the Western Continent).

"People who break laws a lot are by definition not lawful in alignment" has a few problems. Specifically, that there are plenty of criminal LE NPCs in D&D splatbooks.

Also, Malack hasn't explicitly said that he or his deity are non-Evil- he's simpily provided an argument that since death is a natural part of things, they shouldn't be assumed to be Evil.

[Gift Jeraff]

Nale is a leader, runs the Linear Guild like a business, does a lot of meticulous planning, follows a code of vengeance, honored his deal with Xykon, and presumably wants to run an empire similar to Tarquin's (just not in secrecy). I'd say if Roy can be considered barely Lawful, then so should Nale.

[MesiDoomstalker]

"People who break laws a lot are by definition not lawful in alignment" has a few problems. Specifically, that there are plenty of criminal LE NPCs in D&D splatbooks.

Also, Malack hasn't explicitly said that he or his deity are non-Evil- he's simpily provided an argument that since death is a natural part of things, they shouldn't be assumed to be Evil.

Law =/= follows the law. Lawful Evil =/= operates within the law to do evil. Law means they follow some sort of code and do things in an orderly , consitent manner. Nale has, repeatedly, shown he can plan ahead for a ridicously complex ambush scenarios against the Order. He has consitently succeeds initially and then it all falls apart almost all at once (admittedly, this is partially the Order's fault). He has shown a dedication for revenge that borderlines on the insane, taking long thought out, methodical steps to exact his revenge against his brother and father. His killings in Cliffport were simply to provide a series of arrows for the police to follow, a strictly Narccisistic act but part of the plan as well. The Linear Guild is built upon Quasi-Imagained slights. I fail to see how any of that can be interrupted as non-lawful, more or less chaotic. I'm sure others can cite more references to his Lawfulness.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Nale is a leader, runs the Linear Guild like a business, does a lot of meticulous planning, follows a code of vengeance, honored his deal with Xykon, and presumably wants to run an empire similar to Tarquin's (just not in secrecy). I'd say if Roy can be considered barely Lawful, then so should Nale.

Law =/= follows the law. Lawful Evil =/= operates within the law to do evil. Law means they follow some sort of code and do things in an orderly , consitent manner. Nale has, repeatedly, shown he can plan ahead for a ridicously complex ambush scenarios against the Order. He has consitently succeeds initially and then it all falls apart almost all at once (admittedly, this is partially the Order's fault). He has shown a dedication for revenge that borderlines on the insane, taking long thought out, methodical steps to exact his revenge against his brother and father. His killings in Cliffport were simply to provide a series of arrows for the police to follow, a strictly Narccisistic act but part of the plan as well. The Linear Guild is built upon Quasi-Imagained slights. I fail to see how any of that can be interrupted as non-lawful, more or less chaotic. I'm sure others can cite more references to his Lawfulness.

Sorry, nope, meticulous planning comes from his CHAOTIC Good Mother's side. Lawful is lawful, they abide by laws. Examples of Lawful evil are Tarquin and to a lesser degree Kubota... they use the system, the law, and the rules to take over. Senator/Chancellor/Emperor Palpatine, Prince John of England, Master Control fron Tron, Clu from Tron Legacy, all examples of Lawful Evil. Lawful Evil is the evil that makes the laws, not breaks the laws, they're the evil that does legal evil. The majority of attornies by premise are Lawful Evil. Silver Samurai, Doctor Doom, President Lex Luthor are Lawful Evil. Your point makes Joker Lawful Evil because he has plans, plans just means you have organized thoughts, Robin Hood who is the poster boy for Chaotic Good had plans out the wazoo. A code is a code of ethics, it means you keep your word, you don't betray an alliance nor break an agreement, and Nale did that in his first appearance. His false claim that he was keeping a contract with Xykon is just a mind game to try to mess with his foes head, he had has shown he has no loyalty (He told Thog he'd come back for him when he left him in Cliffport, when he meant to abandon Thog. He did abandon Thog when they got to the Western Continent, both are Chaotic Actions, not Lawful ones. The angels didn't accuse Roy of breaking his good alignment by betraying and abandoning Elan, they were saying his actions were not those of someone Lawful) nor code of ethics (he promised Sabine that he'd let her get to kill Haley in Azure City, then while she was away he betrayed her trust and love. As well as his perception of how he was to treat her because of their relationship), if anything Nale is the epitome of Chaotic Evil now... I rescind any previous comments to imply he had only shifted to Neutral Evil. Thank you both for making me rethink that foolish statement. There is no way Nale has ever been anything but Chaotic Evil save for perhaps in... no... not even then, he didn't follow the rules of the home and squished his brother's head, Nale has been Chaotic Evil from birth, he has his mother's Law/Chaos axis and his father's Good/Evil axis. And it makes perfect sense that as Chaotic Evil he'd outright lie and say he was Lawful, just so he could claim to be the evil opposite of his brother, but as we've seen, none of the evil opposites are pure, true, and total opposites, and that is part of how Nale is a flawed opposite to his brother, he is actually Chaotic like his brother, not Lawful.

Nale wants to rule an empire, that means he wants power, ruling a lawless empire where he just does things on a whim doesn't require Lawfulness. He supposedly honored his contract with Xykon, but did not honor his word to Sabine, nor to Thog who are his lover and best friend respectively and his loyal allies, let alone how he broke his Agreement with Roy for the Order to help the Guild get the amulet in trade for the Guild helping the Order defeat Xykon (two times Nale could have been Lawful Evil and helped the Order, per the agreement, the Dungeon or Azure City, and even now, but he can't keep his agreements with anyone... totally Chaotic), in fact, for Nale to be Lawful he would have had to never made the agreement with Roy because it was in conflict with the supposed agreement he made with Xykon.
I seriously can't see how anyone would believe Nale is Lawful anything. Thog is more loyal, Belkar is more law abiding, and we know they're both Chaotic Evil.

[ORione]

I don't think Nale considers Thog his best friend.

[Shoelessgdowar]

I don't think Nale considers Thog his best friend.

Who then? Who else is even close? Yikyik?

[ORione]

Who then? Who else is even close? Yikyik?

Why does he necessarily need a best friend?

[Kish]

Really. Nale has friends?

Next you're going to be saying Redcloak is Xykon's best friend. Certainly no one else is, and yet, Redcloak hates Xykon more personally than anyone else.

[Chad30]

I wonder if Malack will go to the trouble of healing the others and using break enchantment on Haley while he stews, or just focus everything on Nale.

[FujinAkari]

Lawful is lawful, they abide by laws.

We actually have Word of God that being Lawful does NOT mean you always obey the law. Lawful alignment is defined by its adherence to a personal code, not external requirements.

While you are correct that many LE people will contort the law to justify their actions, you are requiring a unanimity which simply does not exist.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I was going to reply to Shoeless ridicoulous claims and how I see them as inaccurate or whatever, but I realized he will be just as stubborn as me in changing his mind. I say he's LE, Shoeless says hes CE. Thats his opinion, and that is mine. I'm fine with that.

[martianmister]

Lawful alignment is defined by its adherence to a personal code, not external requirements.

But you can say that for every character. They all have personal codes...