This comic is barely D&D related anymore

[wowy319]

Ancano, this is an intervention. We're all worried that you're just not getting what the point of a story-driven webcomic is. It's gotten impossible for us to just sit by and let you post stuff like this anymore. We're worried that you don't understand that the strip has had a story from the beginning, and that like any story-driven comedy, the jokes serve as a part of the story and are not meant to overshadow the story itself. We know that deep down you want to understand this and that this thread is a cry for help. So please, get help before you make another thread like this.

[oppyu]

Awkward confession; I have never played D&D before, I've never seen D&D played before, I don't know anyone who plays D&D or any other tabletop RPGs. I found this comic on tvtropes and managed to enjoy the earlier comics without knowing exactly what 'spot check' or 'initiative' are (Full credit to the quality of Rich's writing and art). So the comic moving away from rule-related gags is fine and dandy for me

[Arrowstorm122]

I dare say that a lot of the popularity Order of the Stick has gotten is because it stopped being too oriented on people who knew and played D&D, and more open for all the other people who appreciate good humor and superb storytelling.

[TheArsenal]

Dude, the story isnt just DD jokes. This has become a very interesting and intriguing planar story.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Well in fact it has D&D references, although there are no longer about the 3.5 rules anymore... It uses D&D as a background to the OotS fantasy world, which permits to D&D fans like me to make the difference with other generic fantasy webcomics, but those references are not so math-rule-intensive for the rest of the readers to understad. So everyone is happy.

[Psyren]

OP, what on earth are you talking about? The 3.5 rules are still a big part of the comic.

Take the latest strip. Redcloak defeats Tsukiko by commanding her undead minions. He can do this because he is an evil cleric. Command undead is a supernatural ability, therefore it has no verbal or somatic components, and he can do it quietly - i.e. without her realizing that he did it. All that is required is that he present his holy symbol. which is conveniently and prominently displayed around his neck. Her minions are easy to control (and hard for her to regain control of) because she is a mystic theurge, a class that doesn't progress her own rebuke ability; thus her effective cleric level for turning purposes is drastically lower than that of Redcloak. Finally, we have Redcloak's comment about casting while being grappled, which is perfectly true.

Yes, there are times the Giant fudges the rules for a better story, but give the devil his due. He is on point rules-wise at least 80% of the time. I don't think it's reasonable to expect more than that, not when more accuracy would come at the expense of both jokes and plot.

[The Succubus]

{{scrubbed}}

[AngelusAlvus]

I read this comic for the awsome plot. The D&D stuff is just a bonus.

[Mr. Snuggles]

Meh, this always happens. I got all my tears out when my beloved childhood TV show, M*A*S*H, went from being a delightful comedy to being Alan Alda's opportunity to show the world how great of an actor he can be.

It happens again and again. The creative force behind the production gets bored with what he set out to do in the first place, and changes the creation to satisfy himself. If that works for the viewers, hey, bonus. If it doesn't, I have seen many creations run into the ground and ultimately cancelled due to total lack of interest. For the creator, that's no big deal, he didn't want to satisfy the viewers anyway. Use the cash milked from the franchise to start the next big thing!

[luc258]

I don't know about the rest of the readers, but I'm here for the story and the characters, especially the villains.
The D&D jokes is just a bonus for 20 page level geekery threads.

[pendell]

I'm afraid I must agree with the Giant. When OOTS came out, 3.5 was the current game and most people got the jokes. 3.5 has been superseded by 4.0, which in turn will soon be superseded by 5.0.

How is anyone supposed to write to that?

In a few years, NO ONE except old grognards will get those jokes. The more Rich moves away from D&D mechanics to classic fantasy, the more timeless his work. Tolkien and Leguin and Ron Howard never made a rules-based joke. Instead, game designers compete to see who can best reflect the flavor of the worlds they made.

Cheap authors imitate game systems. Good authors are imitated BY game systems.

I firmly believe that OOTS has the potential to become a work of art that transcends gaming systems, can be a story that I read to my children and my grandchildren, long after dice have disappeared and everyone communicates by telepathy. A move AWAY from rules jokes makes it more likely that will be the case. A continued emphasis on outdated mechanics just locks the strip ever more firmly into the 00-10 decade.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Edhelras]

OP, what on earth are you talking about? The 3.5 rules are still a big part of the comic.

Take the latest strip. Redcloak defeats Tsukiko by commanding her undead minions. He can do this because he is an evil cleric. Command undead is a supernatural ability, therefore it has no verbal or somatic components, and he can do it quietly - i.e. without her realizing that he did it. All that is required is that he present his holy symbol. which is conveniently and prominently displayed around his neck. Her minions are easy to control (and hard for her to regain control of) because she is a mystic theurge, a class that doesn't progress her own rebuke ability; thus her effective cleric level for turning purposes is drastically lower than that of Redcloak. Finally, we have Redcloak's comment about casting while being grappled, which is perfectly true.

Yes, there are times the Giant fudges the rules for a better story, but give the devil his due. He is on point rules-wise at least 80% of the time. I don't think it's reasonable to expect more than that, not when more accuracy would come at the expense of both jokes and plot.

Also, the big discovery of Tsukiko (which led to her horrible demise) was that the arcane ritual was based on Conjuration, with subschool Teleportation. Maybe not a "rules joke", but the DnD rules, and 3.5 rules in particular, are vital to the entire plot.
For, that is a huge bonus with this comic, maybe just about as important as anything else. Anyway, the close and continuing connection with the ruleset is something that makes this comic doubly entertaining: First, the story and the drama and the jokes - then the opportunity to delve into the rules, both to learn, and not least: to get inspiration on how to use and translate the rules into gameplay. Without the rules-connection, OOTS would have lacked something very important and stand-out-ish.

[Lvl45DM!]

I agree with your post in general, but I'd quibble with this part. Implosion is just aesthetically nastier, even in stick-art, and the visceral nature of it helps contribute to that strip's message (Redcloak is a very dangerous individual in his own right) whether you're familiar with the rule details or not.

Looks nastier sure but doesnt indicate greater power which was the point of Rich using it so it seems to me. But yeah i get your quibble. It still makes non-gamers double take its just that gamers get slightly more

[Psyren]

Also, the big discovery of Tsukiko (which led to her horrible demise) was that the arcane ritual was based on Conjuration, with subschool Teleportation. Maybe not a "rules joke", but the DnD rules, and 3.5 rules in particular, are vital to the entire plot.
For, that is a huge bonus with this comic, maybe just about as important as anything else. Anyway, the close and continuing connection with the ruleset is something that makes this comic doubly entertaining: First, the story and the drama and the jokes - then the opportunity to delve into the rules, both to learn, and not least: to get inspiration on how to use and translate the rules into gameplay. Without the rules-connection, OOTS would have lacked something very important and stand-out-ish.

Speaking of Teleportation, we have even more proper application of rules. Redcloak keeps his quarters Dimensionally Locked, which is easy for him to do since it lasts for over two weeks per casting at his level, and which is also why Tsukiko's attempt to Teleport to safety didn't work. It's also a 20-foot emanation, which explains why Redcloak's Word of Recall to get down there DOES work; he set his sanctuary to be just outside the door to his study, and therefore outside the radius of the Lock.

For many of us, works of art become even more beautiful with analysis. Speaking for myself at least, The Giant has more than enough rules-accuracy to keep those of us who know them well happy.

[SpaceBadger]

The worst part is that the Giant is actually proud of this. On the kickstarter page, he boasts that "the gaming references [are] virtually unnoticeable". One of his recent newsposts reveals that he "barely even reference[s] the 3.5 rules anymore".

I gotta agree with the Giant on this. OOTS is an awesome comic - great story, great art - that doesn't need to stay rooted in D&D jokes.

OOTS deserves at least some of the credit for steering my current game back to D&D from GURPS, but that doesn't mean it has to stay a D&D comic, IMNSHO.

[Tycho_Bloodbeard]

Also an old timer here... heck, I don't think I even played D&D after it was bought by WoTC. I started a long time ago, with the used boxes where you had to crayon-in the numbers in the dice.

I also support the author in his stance on OoTS vs. rules x.y version.

I still played sometimes until a few years ago, but always with the old rules me and my friends owned. I couldn't just afford to get everything bought again, when what we liked was the stories and the role-playing. The rules are just a tool for that. Heck, we played no dice games more than a few times, and as a DM I know I broke the rules hundreds of times.

I am glad the author has stepped back from using direct gaming references to continue the plot. What drives me back is the cool characters and the story. The gaming gags are funny and good too, but nowhere as appealing as fully fledged characters (including the great development of RC and Xykon).

[Taelas]

As someone who has followed the Order of the Stick since the beginning (or at least close to it), I have absolutely no problems with the direction Rich has taken the comic.

In fact, I applaud him for it.

The jokes aren't dependent on the rules anymore, but the world itself is still based on them, so there's something for everyone.

[Jubal_Barca]

I've played one plot arc at the start of a 1st Ed. Campaign which is now on infinite hiatus. Never played DnD 3.5 ed. at all. And yet OOTS is still a major influence for me as a writer, gamer, and creator of settings. It's a magnificent achievement regardless of even whether you're a gamer, and even compared to many full-length novels or series of books the level of character development, complexity, and interest is absolutely fantastic.

[King of Nowhere]

I remember we used to have a post like that once every few months. In the last year I haven't seen any... but there's always someone who will want the comic to return to a plotless gag-a-day.

Might as well ask for lord of the rings to stop the plot and become a series of sketches where aragorn kills some orcs every time.

btw, if the op was trolling, it failed badly. there's no flame war here.

[Joerg]

I'm afraid I must agree with the Giant. When OOTS came out, 3.5 was the current game and most people got the jokes. 3.5 has been superseded by 4.0, which in turn will soon be superseded by 5.0.

In a few years, NO ONE except old grognards will get those jokes.

I don't really think so. I've never played D&D, but a few other RPGs, and I still got many of the jokes. I assume that even in ten years, many RPG rules will still include some equivalents of spot checks or ability scores.

In many parts of the story, I was glad that the rules are available online, mainly because I wanted to know what a certain spell really does (how bad is 'enervation' for Durkon? Must Tsukiko become visible when she casts that Orb, or was that voluntary? And so on), but perhaps that's just me. Often the important mechanics are explained in-comic, too (like how Thanh could break the Dominate spell or why most people can't sneak attack Haley).

So, after all, people can enjoy the comic for the story without any role-playing experience. They will get more out of it if they know role-playing of at least something similar to D&D, and even a bit more if they know D&D 3.5. But that last part is the smallest part by far, even in the early strips.

[CarinTrenos]

I have started reading OotS just half a year ago - a friend of mine tried to convince me for ..well, quite a long time. As a Non-D'n'D-Gamer i have been a little bit ...reluctant, especially after the first dozen chapters or so.

It is a little bit complicated if you know that something is meant to be a joke - but you have to dig it out first. For me the first arc has been quite an amusing story with a wonderful and stereotypical villain, who makes satirical comments about being a stereotypical villain.

700 chapters or so later, everything is different, everything is more complex, the heros and villains aren't walking punch lines anymore and it is one of the few stories i know, which are able to combine creative humor with original characters and an "epic" plot. Free fantasy, unlimited ideas...and a maximum of expression with a minimum of lines. Needless to say, i am some kind of devoted fanboy now.

In my opinion, as a non-gamer, the balance between D'nD-elements and character/plot-centrism is just right. The plot is too advanced/"dangerous" and the characters too experienced for several weeks of rule-bending jokes. The whole world of the comic can't deny its origin - and I think nobody would prefer it any other way. On the other side, the "awesomness" of the last few chapters has been the result of an amazingly well-written story and a couple of interesting deaths for interesting characters. It's quite complicated to create interesting side-characters in a "punch-line"-comic and i guess the real center of Rich's art is not his mockery about his hobby but his impressive skill of telling a creatire, funny and serious story - all at the same time.

[blackjack217]

Of course there are still jokes left if The Giant was interested. He has not even touched Iron Heart Surge, for example.

[Herald Alberich]

But the truth is that almost everyone who has ever played 3.5 D&D has heard of the Order of the Stick already. Expanding to find new readers means going beyond that base, and the heavy rules emphasis in the early strips is a barrier for anyone not already playing the game. There's a fine line between a niche and a pigeonhole, after all.

Indeed. I once tried to get my fiancee into OotS, and she was game, but I couldn't think of a good strip for her to start and get all of the story without me having to fill in too much. So she started at the beginning, didn't get the jokes, and lost interest. Anyone have any suggestions for a strip number in case I ever try again?

Might as well ask for lord of the rings to stop the plot and become a series of sketches where aragorn kills some orcs every time.

You mean like this?

[ti'esar]

I am giant fan of this series, including the last 100 strips, and the 100 before that, etc, and I just thought I'd say I love the D&D that is still mixed into basically everything.

Not that the plot and characters aren't fantastic, but the D&D rules that are still referenced quite often give interaction a structure that I enjoy. If this wasn't D&D-based, the last strip wouldn't have made any sense. Conjuration subschools having only teleportation magic? Presumably there would just be "magic". It would all just be funny latin names and bad-guy wizards that were "more powerful than anyone" until suddenly they weren't.

D&D rules force the writer to have some discipline. It helps not make some of the more irritating mistakes in a fantasy setting, such as extremely convenient magic that does whatever is needed, and inconsistent fantasy-world rules whose details save the heroes at the last minute.

Also, I think there are plenty of D&D jokes left. MITD made one about push/pulling in the last Evil arc...

So I'm going to presume that Rich finds that stuff just mostly uninteresting now and not completely uninteresting.

Nothing wrong with the guy expressing his opinion, though.

Now this, and similar comments, I definitely do agree with. While I'm personally glad to see the overall demise of the rules-based jokes, I think having a setting where the D&D rules underlie everything do give that setting a consistency and even a sort of realism as a result. I think OOTS is the better for having a D&D setting, even if the jokes about D&D are largely gone.

[Psyren]

Now this, and similar comments, I definitely do agree with. While I'm personally glad to see the overall demise of the rules-based jokes, I think having a setting where the D&D rules underlie everything do give that setting a consistency and even a sort of realism as a result. I think OOTS is the better for having a D&D setting, even if the jokes about D&D are largely gone.

The word you're looking for is verisimilitude

But yeah, I agree.

[JackShandy]

Anyone craving Order of the Stick D&D rules jokes should get Dragon Tales. If you already have...well, I'm out of ideas.

[Dark Elf Bard]

Please Rich, don't lose sight of what made OotS truly remarkable.

What, like awesome, unique art, amazing writing, a gripping story with emotional and varied characters, and genuine comedy?

There's loads of D&D comics. What makes OoTs special is not rules jokes.

[skaddix]

What, like awesome, unique art, amazing writing, a gripping story with emotional and varied characters, and genuine comedy?

There's loads of D&D comics. What makes OoTs special is not rules jokes.

Indeed it special because its an epic fantasy story quite frankly one of the best I ever read certainly recently.

[LtNOWIS]

I started reading this comic because it was about D&D, and I'm sure the majority of readers did so for the same reason. While I have nothing against a story driven webcomic, the Giant would do well to remember his niche. I don't think we've had a single D&D related joke since the cat killed a commoner about 50 strips ago.

More recent than that was this feat joke.

/nitpick

[Warren Dew]

So according to you, gag-a-day strips are better than ones with plot.

Actually, that was pretty much the consensus in the thread discussing what the readership liked most about Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales, too, where people really liked the old strips from the Dragon. The problem was that, per the author, those strips are a lot more effort to write - and there's only room for so many gags about any particular rules set.

That said, there still seems to be a fair amount of D&D in the strip to me, what with lots of identifiable spells and such.