LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?

[Ceric]

Random guy: "Hey, S says you got those ads taken down, what a joke he is, right?"
Me: "Well, I didn't do it single-handedly, but I was one of the people who complained."
Random guy: "WHAT?! BUT THE SEXY WIMMINZ I WANT TO LOOK AT THEM PRETENDING TO PLAY SPORTS!!"

That last line reminds me of the time I reported a very NSFW spray on a SFW game server and people complained with a very similar line. Normally I know the internet is the internet but this is generally a very good server

[Mono Vertigo]

That last line reminds me of the time I reported a very NSFW spray on a SFW game server and people complained with a very similar line. Normally I know the internet is the internet but this is generally a very good server

The funny thing is that people who spray NSFW pictures of men get very different responses.
My reply, no matter the sex, would be "BUT I'M PLAYING THAT GAME TO SHOOT PEOPLE! NOT FOR PORN! Oh, why am I complaining, I'm just going to backstab everyone while they're ogling."

[Lea Plath]

The funny thing is that people who spray NSFW pictures of men get very different responses.
My reply, no matter the sex, would be "BUT I'M PLAYING THAT GAME TO SHOOT PEOPLE! NOT FOR PORN! Oh, why am I complaining, I'm just going to backstab everyone while they're ogling."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOR3snVKW0E

It works very well. I'm a bad person for using it as my main spy tactic >.<

[Mono Vertigo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOR3snVKW0E

It works very well. I'm a bad person for using it as my main spy tactic >.<

I had that very video in mind, and mostly play TF2. I'm the one who introduced my boyfriend to the game. At a convention in 2010, we were cosplaying as the BLU Spy and the RED Sniper, too, but we didn't come across any fan, so we didn't get to confuse them with French kissing. Oh well.

[KenderWizard]

Because the male body is kinda ugly and silly looking :/

Aw it's not so bad! I think all bodies are kind of silly looking... I mean, we're a bit squishy and there are... dangly bits and... corners, and lumps... and what's up with tongues? and... hair?! I think the Idealised Female Form is more attractive than the Idealised Male Form, probably a lot because of the male gaze and how we're taught to judge women's bodies and appreciate sexy women. But also because I like curves more than muscles. An individual woman could be all angular and muscular (and still gorgeous, just not my personal type) and an individual man could be soft and slender (and still masculine, just my type!).

Because women are squishy in real life and more intellectual. They're often white mages too, because having a pair of X chromosomes makes you more compassionate. In addition, they are connected to spiritual forces of Mother Nature, more so than men who incarnate power, science and determination. When they're thieves, that is because they are more agile than men, and women who are not naturally nice do need a job where their subtlety will be appreciated.

I was like ...

*cleans mouth fingers and keyboard with soap*
Don't make me do that again, please.

"Spiritual forces of Mother Nature" my [REDACTED]. I've seen so many women who are so into spiritual crap and believe they're naturally spiritual because they have a WOMB and nature is LIFE and FERTILITY and they're more SENSIBLE and they can disregard SCIENCE and bluh bluh bluh.

... then phew!

Yeah... I love the idea of being in touch with life and feeling like a pregnant fertile mother goddess (I hope I feel that way some day! And am also actually pregnant at the time rather than insane!) ... but no.

What? We teach little boys to be tough and self-centred and laugh at them when they model caring behaviours like imagining nurturing baby dolls? We also teach little girls to be "good" and "quiet" and to put others first? And then the girls turn out to be statistically more compassionate and the boys statistically more assertive? Why! It must be Mother Nature's will! It's inherent! Built in! Women are wishy washy empathic nurturers and men are tough scientific fighters.

[Lanaya]

*hugs*
Don't worry about sounding transphobic. From what I understand, no trans person ever doesn't want to be cis.

Depends on what exactly you mean. If I had the option of just waking up one day happy with my body as it is I don't think I would take it, because that would require spending the rest of my life as a man, which is not a happy thought. Obviously logic would dictate that this shouldn't actually be a problem; if I were to suddenly want to be a man then I would want to be a man and so it wouldn't be a bad thing, but logic schmogic. I would, on the other hand, be pretty happy with having been born XX.

[Lea Plath]

I had that very video in mind, and mostly play TF2. I'm the one who introduced my boyfriend to the game. At a convention in 2010, we were cosplaying as the BLU Spy and the RED Sniper, too, but we didn't come across any fan, so we didn't get to confuse them with French kissing. Oh well.

Shouldn't that be spy and pyro? :P

Mind if I add you on steam?

[Asta Kask]

EDIT: .....and the first person to mention the whole "chainmail bikini" thing is going to get a sharp poke from a pointy stick.

GURPS Magic Items II listed "Macho Leather Straps" as the male equivalent.

[Heliomance]

*hugs*
Don't worry about sounding transphobic. From what I understand, no trans person ever doesn't want to be cis.

*raises hand* Hi, I'm weird. Like I said, I'd rather not be genderfluid, but I kinda think I'd prefer to settle on a female identity than a male one, maybe. Not sure. I prefer the person that I am when I'm a girl, if that makes sense.

[Asta Kask]

*spots avatar*

*goes to get scissors*

[Glass Mouse]

Kenderwizard:

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[QUOTE=KenderWizard;13075730]

Bolded part is so true! I have a friend who used to be anti-feminist (despite being a female who desired an independent career and respect as a person, but whatever), she even used the word "feminazi". We (myself and another dyed in the wool feminist, R) talked her around and now she rings us to complain that she can't unsee things she never noticed before!

Writing is a good way to hash through this stuff. For me, it was reading websites, blogs and articles. I just read and read. For R, it was reading traditional feminist literature. So she's a bit more second-wave and I'm a bit more third-wave (although I have a strong second-wave upbringing from my mother).

Haha, poor K. I feel for her - so very much.

I should probably look into second wave, just to get a feel for the historical background for all this. I actually have no solid theoretical backing for anything, just my own and second-hand observations.
I thought you were studying this in small parts?

Try googling your town and "feminism"? Or hang around the gender section of the library and pounce on people! I made feminist friends by accident (as in, I made friends with people, some of whom turned out to be feminist) and once there was two of us (me and R), we kind of brought it out in E, N, K (the initially reluctant one!), J and B, so now we've got a group. In fact, it's a well-organised group. Okay, organised-ish, since I'm the one who gathers us for meetings and I'm so busy at the moment, but we'll get back to it! It's great to be able to chat to other people about this stuff. If you're with a nice person, especially a liberal woman, just throw in something like "Ugh, what about that ad? Makes the feminist in me weep!". If they're not on board, they'll go "Mmh, yeah." But now and then you get "Oh my gosh, I know, right?! I saw this AWFUL one the other day ..." and Bingo! New feminist ally!

I'm gonna remember this! Nice little litmus test.

these are my problems

*many hugs*

skipping the rest of the thread for this.

[rant] [long] [trigger warning maybe?]

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Hi! I work at a gas station due to a sequence of poor life choices requiring immediate but suboptimal fixing. And one of the things that happens here all the time is a passive insight into people's motivations, because their actions happen in a relative social vacuum and patterns emerge.

We had a year or two ago, a life size cardboard cutout of one of the Raiderettes or whatever the cheerleaders for that team are called. Time and again, folks would comment about it. "how much is she?" "she for sale?" etc. and I looked at her, and wondered. Will she ever have friends who like her for her smarts? Her personality? Maybe she has a biting wit? Or a lilting voice, smooth of timbre and great for storytelling? Perhaps she enjoys old novels? Will anyone care?

She will never be appreciated for her smarts or ideals or personality because the first thing everyone saw was her breasts and short skirt. she wasn't a person to these folks. So I asked people, do you think she's smart? Or funny? The universal answer was discomfort, a pause, and then "all I know is, I'd do her!". I know that for a lot of them it was unthinking, giving me, another guy. The "correct" answer. I would like to think a sufficient amount went home and felt bad, thought about it. Pain is a catalyst for growth. But I know too many thought caring about a woman's personality was a waste.

I had an acquaintance who I distanced myself from specifically for his misogyny. One of his life defining moments was a talk with his father. This is the trigger-y part by the way, so women who like being considered people should probably turn back now

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This guy told me about a talk he had with his father at a young age. The dad pulled out a centerfold from a pornographic magazine and pointed at the woman's vuvla. "Son," said he, "This is the [old name for cat]. And this," said he, now gesturing at the rest of the woman, "is what you have to go through in order to get to the [old name for cat]." I assume there was some stated reason why getting into someone's pants was a worthy goal in its own right. I stopped listening, as quite frankly I was sickened and disturbed.

This sort of thing is promulgated as okay, even necessary wisdom for getting through life. Menfolk being conditioned through peer pressure and violence to denigrate women, women the same, only to fit the mold of product, rather than to denigrate themselves. In a way, advertisements where a beautiful woman is shown after having been photoshopped into some strange flawless thing perpetuate this. That's the sticky wicket; no hard-line will ever work. Some ads are fine, and some are terrible and misogynist. Some are terrible and misandrist. And superficially they are all 'just hot chicks in bikinis'.

This is why feminism bothers most guys. They assume a hard line becaus stats what they've been fed; lazy feminism isn't equal rights, it's 'if there must be a top dog, it should be us not them' and it becomes so much easier to rationalize from their. Men aren't on top because they are keeping women down! It's obviously an equal system of vicious violence where the strong will rise to the top. Men being on top just means they are better!

Tiny squabbles amplified to apply on a scale where they cannot rationally hold. And I think I've deviated pretty Far from my point...

I had one surprise though, at that gas station job. I lamented when a customer came in that that poor woman will never be taken seriously, never thought of as smart or funny or - and he cut me off. "they're smarter than you think. I've spoken to her and a couple of the other Raiderettes. They aren't stupid or vapid or whatever." and there was real bitterness in his voice. I'm sure to him, I was just another one of those folks dehumanizing a gal so I could think about her Nekkid without worry.

Advertising sends messages and prompts thought. There are huge wings devoted to how to squeeze the most out of such things,which colors and shades and ratios and composition and layout. This business benefits from the status quo. If the status quo involves misogyny, then it an be easily surmised that the 'science' behind advertising likewise benefits from continuing it.

Alright. This is a bit tricky...

We all objectify other people, all the time. We have to break down and categorize everyone around us to function. If you had to consider every pedestrian you passed, every cassier, every postman visiting your workplace... you wouldn't get anything else done.

So, we all objectify. It's always self-centered, and sometimes it's even self-serving. Compare it to eating a chocolate cake. You know it's bad for you, but you ignore it because you enjoy it right now. You eat your carrots later.
Same with sexy ads. You know she's a real person, but you ignore it right now.

I can't fault any individual for finding sexy ads sexy unless they also exhibit an aggressive or self-entitled attitude. Unfortunately, the loudmouth "I'd hit that!" types often have that attitude, but I'm straying from my point here.

Enjoying a person on a sexual/aesthetic level is akin to enjoying food, a beautiful sunrise, a nice action flick, etc. It's something we see, appreciate, then leave. Knowing a person well enough to treat them like a person is a very time-consuming and complex task, and we usually only do that when something is really worth it (compare watching an action flick to watching M and then having to read up on its cinematic impact and history).

And I must admit, this is one point where I can understand anti-feminists. Taking away sexiness would be pretty boring. We just need physically possible, equal opportunity sexiness. At least IMO.

Of course, there are problems with over-sexualisation, too. But that's not an equality issue.

It's sorta troublesome balancing between liking something even though it's problematic at times. Great article on this.

I like Womanist Musings because it covers a lot of different forms of discrimination. Feministe is pretty cool too. I'd link more stuff; but most of the stuff I read tends to be more trans*/LGBT+-oriented.

Thanks a lot! I'm running out of time here, but I'll give them a look as soon as I get home

Yes that is true but what does that have to do with anything? Again I'm not saying that women aren't objectified I'm just saying that just because there are hot women in something doesn't automatically make it sexist.

Agreed. The individual ad isn't necessary sexist. But it's part of a much larger, sexist structure in society. So, in a way, through the faults of everyone else, it becomes sexist anyway.

Racist jokes are only offensive because racism exists. Same thing.

(Is it feminist to say "men and women are pretty much alike - and they're all jerkwads"?)

If it isn't, then I've been doing it wrong

Still, I'd suggest slightly less subterfuge. Mention that you're E-flirting with someone, make sure it's someone with a feminine name. I'm sure some playground ladies will be happy to stand in for you. If people assume you're gay from that, it's on their heads. If they ask if you're gay or bi, that's a mark in their favor and you can probably be open-minded. And if you do end up with a guy, the fact that you never came out and said "lesbian" yourself gives a buffer of plausible deniability. Not an ideal move, but one that minimizes the bad.

Or they're just testing to see if they still have a chance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOR3snVKW0E

It works very well. I'm a bad person for using it as my main spy tactic >.<

I... I'm a horrible person for laughing out loud at this, aren't I?

And at school no less... Thanks for the funny looks, Lea! XD

[noparlpf]

Iunno, depends on what you mean with cis. Like, I'd love to be a cis girl, but I wouldn't just want my dysphoria to disappear. Cause, I wouldn't be me if I wasn't a girl if that makes any sense?

That's what I meant. No trans person I've ever spoken to has said they'd like to be cis to the body they were born with.
Something I was wondering, though: If given the choice between staying trans or becoming a cis man, wouldn't being a cis man be better?

[pffh]

I think this feminism thing is actually starting to sink into my brain and is even showing up in my gameplay. I'm playing through Final Fantasy V again and it suddenly dawned on me that I'd set the two women in the group as a Knight and a Monk and had the two guys as a White Mage and Thief, in a reversal of traditional roles.

It does make me wonder though - why is it that fantasy roles have always pegged women as squishy (and often scandalously under-dressed) caster times that have to have magic in order to be strong?

We need more Femiknights!

EDIT: .....and the first person to mention the whole "chainmail bikini" thing is going to get a sharp poke from a pointy stick.

It's because boobs. No wait don't lynch me yet. At least in fencing large boobs can both prevent certain defensive and offensive moves and that's why busty women tend to tie them down but if it's video game big that only helps so much.

I've fought plenty of excellent female fencers but if their breasts were larger then a certain size I could always quite easily steal a hit from the side that was opposite to their sword.

Now I'm not saying women shouldn't wield a blade since they as anyone can get really good and I've had my ass handed to me by a fair amount of them.

[Glass Mouse]

It's because boobs. No wait don't lynch me yet. At least in fencing large boobs can both prevent certain defensive and offensive moves and that's why busty women tend to tie them down but if it's video game big that only helps so much.

I've fought plenty of excellent female fencers but if their breasts were larger then a certain size I could always quite easily steal a hit from the side that was opposite to their sword.

I can just hear video game artists scramble for their pens to use this as the worst excuse ever.

"But, see, we gave her humongous boobs... so she can't fight! It's not sexist, it's just logic!"


(As a moderately-endowed (non-fencer) person, I can kinda vouch for your point, though. They get in the way a lot - same for long hair)

[noparlpf]

Also happy birthday!

Thanks!

No, but nobody really said that. I came closest by saying that some of the guys I know don't want feminism to take away the hot women in bikinis in ads. Maybe I should have elaborated (or left that line out). I mean they specifically want gratuitous sexualised images of women on ads for totally unrelated things, like food products.

Specifically, there were some really bad ads a while ago. It actually happened twice (two different sports), the same company (selling snacks) used highly sexualised images of women posing in very skimpy approximations of sports uniforms, with blatant single entendres (pretty close to CHECK OUT HER BOOBIES) and a little picture of the snack in the bottom corner. This wasn't women who happened to be hot playing sport, this was explicitly models posing in a sort of "Imagine if women played sport, it'd be so hot to have them, like, lean over, and kick in their tiny miniskirts so you could see their panties" etc. Annnnyway, I complained about the ads to the Advertising Standards Authority, and posted on facebook the link to their online form because I knew some of my friends also wanted to complain. Instant backlash. Also, at a con AGES later, one of my friends told some people that "it was Kender who got those ads taken down!" (turned out he was using it as an example of me being feminist, which he thought was a good thing) but I got loads of
Random guy: "Hey, S says you got those ads taken down, what a joke he is, right?"
Me: "Well, I didn't do it single-handedly, but I was one of the people who complained."
Random guy: "WHAT?! BUT THE SEXY WIMMINZ I WANT TO LOOK AT THEM PRETENDING TO PLAY SPORTS!!"

I think I saw some kind of ad like that a while ago. I tried to imagine the models actually playing football in those outfits. (Real football, not American football.) I giggled.
So I guess I thought the ads were just so blatantly ridiculous that sexism wasn't even the most important reason for them to not exist?

*raises hand* Hi, I'm weird. Like I said, I'd rather not be genderfluid, but I kinda think I'd prefer to settle on a female identity than a male one, maybe. Not sure. I prefer the person that I am when I'm a girl, if that makes sense.

But if you settled on female, you'd rather have a female body, right? I didn't word things very well before I guess.

It's because boobs. No wait don't lynch me yet. At least in fencing large boobs can both prevent certain defensive and offensive moves and that's why busty women tend to tie them down but if it's video game big that only helps so much.

I've fought plenty of excellent female fencers but if their breasts were larger then a certain size I could always quite easily steal a hit from the side that was opposite to their sword.

Now I'm not saying women shouldn't wield a blade since they as anyone can get really good and I've had my ass handed to me by a fair amount of them.

Also large breasts stick out and you can reach them more easily than say a shoulder, or a belly, or a thigh. I've had girls get upset at me for always going for their boobs but really it was just because that's where the openings were and they never learned to guard them better.

[pffh]

I can just hear video game artists scramble for their pens to use this as the worst excuse ever.

"But, see, we gave her humongous boobs... so she can't fight! It's not sexist, it's just logic!"


(As a moderately-endowed (non-fencer) person, I can kinda vouch for your point, though. They get in the way a lot - same for long hair)

Yeah I would get really angry if someone gave someone big boobs just to do that but I would also be quite happy with smaller boobed swordwomen in video games.

[Astrella]

That's what I meant. No trans person I've ever spoken to has said they'd like to be cis to the body they were born with.
Something I was wondering, though: If given the choice between staying trans or becoming a cis man, wouldn't being a cis man be better?

It wouldn't be me. And to be honest, being a cis girl instead of a trans girl would mean that I wasn't me either, considering my experiences and such would've been completely different, I mean, I would've been really swell not to have to deal with this, but I would've come out a different person.

-----

A linkie that asks some questions to ponder about with regards to transness and figuring stuff out etc...

I'm reminded of Natalie's proposal for a gender identity test and I'm quoting it here even though it's not superrelevant because I like the concept so much:

Gender is nothing if not diverse. It’s a rule as defined by its many exceptions as by its occasional consistencies.

If I were to construct an online test to help someone who is questioning their gender identity and whether or not to pursue transition, I would do the following: I would select 20 fairly random and completely inconsequential questions that sound vaguely related to gender and neurological abilities. The answers wouldn’t matter. The result, regardless of how you answered the questions, would invariably be “No, according to your results, you are not transsexual and are simply experiencing a mild form of gender confusion. You should probably not pursue transition”.

Then one final question would pop up: “did your results disappoint or sadden you?”. If you answer yes, then yeah, there’s a very good chance you’re trans, you know you’re trans, and you were just looking for permission. Go get yourself to a qualified, trans-friendly therapist and take it from there. If you weren’t disappointed, then this test can’t tell you anything of value at all. But you should probably ask yourself why you were taking the bloody quiz in the first place, and go see a therapist anyway, because most cis people don’t spend a whole lot of time worrying about whether or not they’re trans.

[Mono Vertigo]

Shouldn't that be spy and pyro? :P

Mind if I add you on steam?

We didn't have the disguise or time needed for Pyro, he looks most like the Sniper, and I've heard the Spy/Sniper pairing was popular among many fans of yaoi. Not my thing, honestly, I've got a bunch of non-heterosexual OTPs in many fandoms, but not TF2. As long as I don't stumble into sprays in-game, I don't care much. Hell, as long as I don't stumble on any explicit or NSFW spray of any kind...
I'm never doing a cosplay that badly again, I can't believe I thought I did a good job at the time. I'm grateful the paper mask preserved my anonymity.

No problem! I've not played in ages, but hey. I'm Spycheck Me (Spies impersonate me a freakin' lot for some reason).


On the matter of boobs and fighters: yes, they can be a hindrance in many activities, but not only there are many ways to get around it, men somehow are rarely hindered by their gargantuan shoulderguards and weapons, fully closed helms, and other things that should logically affect their physical prowess.

[Lady Serpentine]

It does make me wonder though - why is it that fantasy roles have always pegged women as squishy (and often scandalously under-dressed) caster times that have to have magic in order to be strong?

Is the squishy or the caster more important? I'm guessing the first, from the last line of the sentence, but that could be an important distinction, since it rather changes what counts as being an example of that type of character in some cases, and thus can considerably alter how a given person sees and answers the question.

[Heliomance]

But if you settled on female, you'd rather have a female body, right? I didn't word things very well before I guess.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. But despite the fact that I do go through phases of being a cis guy - I'm in one at the moment - I think I actually kinda prefer being a trans girl. I don't know how much of that is because I idealise femininity somewhat, though.

[Qaera]

There was a really good gay TF2 web comic.

~ ♅

[Skeppio]

There was a really good gay TF2 web comic.

~ ♅

You mean Cuanta Vida, maybe?

[Qaera]

You mean Cuanta Vida, maybe?

Yup

~ ♅

[Asta Kask]

A transdimensional warp opens and out steps...

...your Gender Identity twin!

This twin has the same gender identity that you have, but another kind of body. Women's twin has a male body and the other way around. So I would get a trans man. Genderqueer, gender fluid, etc. get a cis of whatever sex they were assigned at birth.

What do you see?

[Kindablue]

Because women are squishy in real life and more intellectual. They're often white mages too, because having a pair of X chromosomes makes you more compassionate. In addition, they are connected to spiritual forces of Mother Nature, more so than men who incarnate power, science and determination. When they're thieves, that is because they are more agile than men, and women who are not naturally nice do need a job where their subtlety will be appreciated.
*cleans mouth fingers and keyboard with soap*
Don't make me do that again, please.

"Spiritual forces of Mother Nature" my [REDACTED]. I've seen so many women who are so into spiritual crap and believe they're naturally spiritual because they have a WOMB and nature is LIFE and FERTILITY and they're more SENSIBLE and they can disregard SCIENCE and bluh bluh bluh.

Rebecca Watson - Women's Intuition and Other Fairy Tales (contains a bit of explicit language)

[Castaras]

Hmm.

I as a female both in gender and in biology am only recently starting to wear more girly clothing (only at Uni did I start regularly wearing skirts - before, I wore skirts up to the age of about 10/11, and at 18, and that's it). However, I guess if this girl in front of me had a male body, he'd be taking a little more care of himself.

It'd all depend on environment as well. If this twin was brought up exactly the same as I was, she'd probably be doing the same thing as I am now - starting to wear more feminine stuff, except she'd be doing it because she'll have realised that the reason she felt odd wasn't just because she was a geek. She'd probably only realise this sort of thing at university age, because before then while she'd know of the LGBTQA culture and all the people in it, she'll have assumed she's just cis-hetero.

So probably would have long, damaged, curly/frizzy hair that she's starting to repair and try to fix up (more so than I am now), and possibly be looking into learning more about sorting themselves out to be more feminine, but otherwise look much like me, clothing-wise - a little gothy fancy stuff, mostly jeans/tshirts. Probably more jeans/tshirts, due to having less confidence in themselves due to the confusion? Definitely would be less confident, even if they portrayed a confident aura about them.

If they were brought up differently? Who knows. They could look entirely different.

[Mono Vertigo]

Heard about that comic, I should check it out sometime.

Okay, so we've also decided that since female clothing stores tend to sell overpriced stuff that, in polite words, don't match my style at all, next time my boyfriend looks for men's clothes, I'm gonna go with him. He also gave me a few tips. I'm embarrassed, I do have women's clothes (which are not feminine at all actually), but I have no clue or remembrance where I got them from.
That, plus the hair I'm gonna cut short this week... femininity is overrated.

Also, at the next convention, my boyfriend and I are going to go as England and America from Axis Powers Hetalia*. He'd suggested I do the female version of America, but seeing how much I like cosplaying as the opposite gender, and that only the original male character has glasses (like I do)...


@Asta Kask: a vaguely confusing transwoman who's not feminine at all and still goes to men's clothing stores.
Gee, great timing.

[Astrella]

Ooh, ooh, happy birthday, noparlf!

That's the difference between enforced-gender-neutral (which doesn't work very well and is basically impossible to do unless you keep the child in a controlled environment all of the time) and gender-diverse, where there are cars and dolls and all children are encouraged to play with whatever they want, no "girl's toys" or "boy's toys" just "children's toys".

This very much, and that's the biggest problem I have with it being handled because assigned neutrality seems to be actually limiting people's expression. In my eyes the best way to deal with it is to let everyone express themselves in the way they want; don't limit that.

I'm curious though to what degree we pick up on mannerisms and preferences because they are deemed gender appropriate; I know I picked up several "female" mannerism from my mum when I was younger thinking back before sorta suppressing them. But this could just be me applying posterior knowledge to things.

*blabbers on*

I think this feminism thing is actually starting to sink into my brain and is even showing up in my gameplay. I'm playing through Final Fantasy V again and it suddenly dawned on me that I'd set the two women in the group as a Knight and a Monk and had the two guys as a White Mage and Thief, in a reversal of traditional roles.

It does make me wonder though - why is it that fantasy roles have always pegged women as squishy (and often scandalously under-dressed) caster times that have to have magic in order to be strong?

We need more Femiknights!

EDIT: .....and the first person to mention the whole "chainmail bikini" thing is going to get a sharp poke from a pointy stick.

Men being protectors and women being nurturers is sorta one of the most basic gender stereotypes; so it's no surprise it shows up in games.

I had that very video in mind, and mostly play TF2. I'm the one who introduced my boyfriend to the game. At a convention in 2010, we were cosplaying as the BLU Spy and the RED Sniper, too, but we didn't come across any fan, so we didn't get to confuse them with French kissing. Oh well.

Awesomes!

Aw it's not so bad! I think all bodies are kind of silly looking... I mean, we're a bit squishy and there are... dangly bits and... corners, and lumps... and what's up with tongues? and... hair?! I think the Idealised Female Form is more attractive than the Idealised Male Form, probably a lot because of the male gaze and how we're taught to judge women's bodies and appreciate sexy women. But also because I like curves more than muscles. An individual woman could be all angular and muscular (and still gorgeous, just not my personal type) and an individual man could be soft and slender (and still masculine, just my type!).

Well, I guess it makes sense that women's bodies are a lot more idealized; because they're also a lot more meant to be looked at from a societal view.

What? We teach little boys to be tough and self-centred and laugh at them when they model caring behaviours like imagining nurturing baby dolls? We also teach little girls to be "good" and "quiet" and to put others first? And then the girls turn out to be statistically more compassionate and the boys statistically more assertive? Why! It must be Mother Nature's will! It's inherent! Built in! Women are wishy washy empathic nurturers and men are tough scientific fighters.

This so much, self-fulfilling prophecy much? And it goes beyond gender even; I very much dislike how society places so much emphasis on being self-reliant and flawless and not needing support which just creates a horrible attitude of shame around seeking help. (eg how stigmatized therapy and such is. And basically society's entire attitude towards people who don't fit in what society considers able-bodied.)

Kenderwizard:

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Haha, poor K. I feel for her - so very much.

I should probably look into second wave, just to get a feel for the historical background for all this. I actually have no solid theoretical backing for anything, just my own and second-hand observations.
I thought you were studying this in small parts?



I'm gonna remember this! Nice little litmus test.

The main problem with second wave feminism is as I understand that it failed to take in account intersectionality properly. Which of course is a pretty big failing and leads to the origin of things as womanism to better address the issues of all women; and not just able-bodied, cis, white women. You can't address discrimination without taking in account the various lines (race, sexuality, gender, able-bodyness, wealth, class, ... ) along which it plays. The issues of a woman of colour are different from those of a white women, etc... And that's what third wave feminism tries to tackle. (Not saying that there aren't some pretty dividing points of discussion in third wave either; attitude on sex work / pornography is a pretty divisive issue I can think of right now.)

(It doesn't help either that the main group that still adheres to second wave feminism are rad fems; of whom a large part holds some very transphobic opinions. (Janice Raymond, "The transsexual Empire".) And that's just completely counter to the whole idea of feminism; even if you just center feminism around the idea of equality for women; then 2nd wave sorta fails in recognizing that it should be for ALL WOMEN, regardless if they're trans*, WOC, etc... And ideally, feminism should stand for Equality (for everyone, regardless of status, gender, sexuality, wealth, ability, ... ). Which is why the name is a tad unfortunate these days; but anti-kyriarchy folks doesn't mouth well.

Oh, the waves of feminism are also sorta dependent on how far feminist issues are being tackled. And of course very much influenced by the actual feminists authors, warriors, etc... at work. I think it can be sorta summarized as: First Wave dealt mostly with legal issues; with voting rights being the central issue; Second Wave focused more on sexuality and reproduction rights and Third Wave focuses on addressing a lot issues with the 2nd Wave line of thinking and adding in intersectionality.

(This is of course very brief and I'm not really schooled on feminist history, so take it with a grain of salt.)

[Lix Lorn]

Yeah... I love the idea of being in touch with life and feeling like a pregnant fertile mother goddess (I hope I feel that way some day! And am also actually pregnant at the time rather than insane!) ... but no.

Bleh.
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I have/have had a couple of female friends who emphaticall NEVER WANT KIDS EW NO. And without fail every time it just makes me go WELL AT LEAST YOU HAVE THE CHOICE AND HERE YOU ARE THROWING IT AWAY.

...it upsets me.

(This isn't a rant at you, kender, just it made me think of it. In fact, it's entirely possible I've mentioned this before...)

[Rawhide]

EDIT: .....and the first person to mention the whole "chainmail bikini" thing is going to get a sharp poke from a pointy stick.

Chainmail bikini!