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2012-05-10, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Isn't it at all possible that what Roy did in the arena was a classic rope-a-dope?
Let the big guy wear himself out (or use up his berserk) and then take him down easily. It's the smart move, therefore it's one that Roy would know to employ and Thog would not comprehend (since he equates strength with victory).
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2012-05-10, 10:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
For no reason that I can figure out, I suddenly find myself wondering if there's any chance that Tarquin and Xykon know each other.
"That's not right, that's not even wrong."
"This is not an idea to be tossed aside lightly, it should be thrown with great force."
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2012-05-10, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Okay, I wasn't referring to a forum post, but a news post from several years ago, which I found:
Originally Posted by the front page (give or take a few 'next page' links)
Originally Posted by that same article
Yes, he does say he's poking fun at the system where he can, but he also says that entertaining story trumps mechanics, which is what I held in mind when reading the strip. Perhaps the confusion is that I equate entertaining story to narrative?
In any case, that's what I was referring to; if his stance has changed since then, well, that's news to me. Sorry for the confusion.
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2012-05-10, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
No, the error you make here is one that many, MANY people have made: equating rules GAGS with the rules themselves.
OotS has long since moved away from a gag-a-day strip to a story-focused strip; one result of this is that when 4e came out, and when 5e started being developed, Rich didn't bother bringing the comic forward because all the time spent introducing the new rules (and poking fun at them) would undermine the narrative flow. But the story remains consistent with the 3.5 ruleset, with the few exceptions being noted by the author in forum posts (Tsukiko has too few barred schools, for example).
As such, the rules will continue to exert influence on the plot, both implicitly (as when Roy used Thog's Dungeoncrasher ACF against him in the final scene AND tried to run out the clock on his rage) and explicitly (as with Know(Architecture & Engineering)). One of the factors that makes the Roy vs. Thog fight and the V vs. Z fight interesting is that each represents the triumph of clever fighting over build optimization, which is a D&D perspective through and through. And one reason I respect the Giant so much is that he's able to make that perspective visible to non-D&D players through dialogue, without boring and clunky explanations.Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-05-10 at 11:53 AM.
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2012-05-10, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-05-10, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2012
Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Well Xylon looked like Tarquin when he was alive... (that probably doesn't say much for a stick figure comic...)
I hope Xylon and Tarquin join forces (with Tarquin betraying Neil) that would be fun, imagine the two together!
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2012-05-10, 01:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Possible outcomes of Tarquin and Xykon recognizing eachother:
1) Old friends.
"Hey, Xykon, old friend..."
"I don't remember you. Meteor Swarm."
2) Old enemies.
"Oh no, it's my old adversary!"
"I don't remember you, but if you insist, Meteor Swarm"
3) They don't recognize each other
"Hey, who's that guy?"
"Allow me to introduce myself. Meteor Swarm."
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2012-05-10, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Since Tarquin is Roy's opposite, that must mean Xykon actually knows every single detail about him, despite having never met him.
And then he Meteor Swarms him.
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2012-05-10, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Absolutely.
The D&D level up system is the exact same for Int 25 and Int 3 characters, excepting that Int 25 characters get extra skill points, and I think this is one of the things being parodied in the fight.
Thog, despite being a drooling idiot, is still every bit as knowledgeable about character attribute placement and combat effectiveness as Roy is since that is how D&D works. When a low int character levels up, they choose the feat they want. There is no rule "Pick an extra feat for every three points of int you are away from 18 and then randomly deturmine which feat yuo get, since your character isn't smart enough to make the best decision."
You want Roy to outwit Thog because Thog is dumber than Roy, and you want this because you are expecting a standard, real-world narrative. OOTS is based in a game-world, and so there are times (like this) where ability scores manifest themselves in unusual ways :)Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2012-05-10, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
... That WOULD be funny. Nice idea, hope we get to see it.
Also, was re-reading SoD a couple of days ago and noticed thatSpoilerThe evil dungeon master looking for an assistant a-la The Apprentice style had what looked to be the same helmet that Tarquin wears now.
Coincidence?
I thinknot!....
....Ah. Yah, probably, but still...78% of all DM's start their first campaign in a tavern. If you're among the 22% who didn't, copy and paste this into your signature and tell us where you DID begin.The players were attacked individually on the road on the way to town by werewolves. To survive, they had to team up then and there without knowing anything about eachother (literally -- all character sheets were completed without other players' knowledge).
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2012-05-10, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
A really good point. Tarquin is Roy's opposite, which helps to point out why Roy keeps getting beaten to a pulp. Tarquin is highly defensive, whereas Roy charges in with no helmet and only a two-hander (no shield, harder to parry). Against most enemies with good dexterity and faster attack speed, he's guaranteed to take a few injuries before landing his big strike. That's basically how he's handled every fight so far.
That's one thing that always bothered me about the Order. Their tank is basically a DPS warrior while the only person with heavy armor and a shield is standing back casting spells. And people wonder why they have so much trouble.
Switch Durkon to tank and self-heal, and Roy to melee DPS like Belkar. When a battle begins, Durkon opens by growing to giant size and smashing the enemies with his hammer, which causes them to either die, flee, or attack him. NOW Roy can charge in and cleave them all while their backs are turned, doing maximum damage with minimum risk.
Tarquin has a great tank build for leading a small adventuring group. He dodges, counters, blocks and regenerates. A good tank should have enough damage mitigation that he doesn't need continuous healing. Roy does fine because he's got a very deep HP pool and is not afraid to take damage.
So what will Tarquin's defense against Meteor Swarm (and other hostile spells) be?Last edited by Smolder; 2012-05-10 at 04:00 PM.
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2012-05-10, 02:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
He will block each meteor by deflecting them all and reflect them back at Xykon via Reflect Arrows feat. With his other magical doodad, he will simultaneously lower Xykon's defenses to his own meteor swarm. Then Tarquin will get his counter and trip Xykon, and then crush Xykon's skull beneath his steel boot. Because Xykon has magic items that protect from everything but awesomeness.
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2012-05-10, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-05-10, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
btw which god does the lizard priest follow? not the same one as red eye right?
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2012-05-10, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-05-10, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Nah, Malack (the lizard priest) worships Nergal, god of Death and Destruction in the Western pantheon. Redcloak worships the Dark One, the only god of the goblinoid pantheon.
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2012-05-10, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Thanks for making my evening.
...and then Redcloack finds himself in big trouble.
[Panel 5]
Nergal, Lion-Headed God of Death and Destruction.
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2012-05-10, 03:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Well... OotS is still a narrative, and the characters (especially Elan and family) are aware about genre conventions and cliches.
While I disagree on how Masamichi feels about Roy’s victory over Thog in the arena, I didn’t like, myself, the way Thog’s general stupidity was portrayed in that specific battle. I mean, he was still a drooling idiot who couldn’t use a second-person pronoun, but he was able to recognize and treasure “non-traditional panel layout” featured in their first adventure. That’s a very specific type of dumb.
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2012-05-10, 03:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Yes, the comic type. Think Calvin & Hobbes, where such incongruities were a regular occurrence.
I think the "dumb fighter talk smart" thing is Rich playing for laughs; the dumb strong fighter is a cliche that requires no support from the gaming rules (but gets it anyway); but that the game rules are still an important part of that fight.Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-05-10 at 03:26 PM.
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2012-05-10, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
"That's not right, that's not even wrong."
"This is not an idea to be tossed aside lightly, it should be thrown with great force."
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2012-05-10, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
No way they could have been up and coming at the same time--Xykon was already 18th level or higher ~28 years ago (Energy Drain vs. Lirian), whereas Tarquin can't be much older than early to mid-forties.
I suppose he may have hired Tarquin's party as one-time mercenaries at some point, as he did with the Linear Guild.
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2012-05-10, 05:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2012-05-10, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
*waves as a new forumer* You know, I both agree and disagree on that.
V totally did some interesting things and showed a lot of growth in that battle. The restrained temper, the willingness to think outside the box in face of a horribly obnoxious villain.
It's a shame V lost though.
I know, I know, we paint it as V won, but ZZ'dritt got to toss V through a plane shift as a finisher. Sure, V was thrown into comedy realm and was humiliated despite her emotional growth, but survived while ZZ'dritt was knocked out...
But any fight that lands you sent to another plane of existence is not one you won. If ZZ'dritt had decided to send V to hell, V would've still been sent and not been able to do anything about it. If ZZ'dritt had sent him to the plane of fire, V would've been incinerated. It's only villian taking the gag option that at all leaves that as V's 'victory'.
Which is a shame, as V did a really cool choice and brainstorm there and narratively deserved better than to lose that fight at the last moment by being planeshifted away. Surviving because ZZ'dritt's last minute pinch 'you lose' move tossed V somewhere lame instead of sending the exhausted wizard somewhere dangerous is kind of demeaning and half implies that ZZ'dritt wasn't really trying to kill V to begin with.
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2012-05-10, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
I would argue that there are a number of C&H strips where mere boredom isn't nearly enough of an explanation--and also that C&H is perfectly comfortable with that sort of paradox. I'm just as comfortable with such comically contradictory behavior coming from an idiot half-orc as from a precocious 6-year-old.
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2012-05-10, 05:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0796.html I think this comic disputes the 'wear the guy out'.
Before the cunning turnaround, the potion, and seeing the strategy...Roy gave up. His moves from there are come across as reasonable desperation before determining another plan.
Heck, it wouldn't really be unfair to say that Thog won round 1, and until Roy got healing potion, he didn't have a chance. But Roy did definitely win round 2.
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2012-05-10, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
V absolutely had the means to get back, he just had to wait a day to rememorize.
This is like saying if you tackle me while I pull a knife, and I stab you in the stomach but am sent reeling into another room, that I somehow lost the fight since I now have to walk back into the frist room to find you face down on the floor...Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post
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2012-05-10, 05:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Wouldn't plane shift have been banned (like teleportation) for V, as it's conjuration? Which would explain why Durkon had to drag his butt to the demiplane himself to find him?
Not that I'm trying to undermine your point at it's heart; more like in your analogy, the door closed after you were knocked back, locked, and your friend a few rooms over had the key and heard the door lock.Last edited by Peelee; 2012-05-10 at 05:52 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2012-05-10, 05:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Stupid "Nope!" mask now we still won't be able to figure out his identity!
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2012-05-10, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-05-10, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #852 - The Discussion Thread
Teleport, no.
Dismissal. yes. All V has to do is cast it on himself and there is an 80% chance he is sent directly back to the Prime Material. If not? Cast it again. He has a lot of 5th level spell slots by this point.Official Incense Aroma Specialist for the Vaarsuvius Fan Club!
English isn't my primary language, so please let me know if something I'm saying doesn't make sense!Continuation of ThePhantasm's awesometacular post