League of Legends XXXVII: Thread Name Delayed for Further Testing on PBE

[ex cathedra]

According to my math, ZG/IE/BT/PD/PD does 1514 + 12.528% max HP DPS, while ZG/IE/BT/PD/BR does 1298 + 19.88% max HP DPS, so MBR only offers more damage when 7.352% of an enemy's max HP in magic DPS is worth more than 216 physical DPS. Before taking resistances into account, that occurs just before 3000 HP.

Frankly, the PD build is superior simply because it costs less, lifesteals more, and offers more movespeed. I'm also lazy but red pot and green pot obviously scale much better with a second PD than with MBR.

[Godskook]

According to my math, ZG/IE/BT/PD/PD does 1514 + 12.528% max HP DPS, while ZG/IE/BT/PD/BR does 1298 + 19.88% max HP DPS, so MBR only offers more damage when 7.352% of an enemy's max HP in magic DPS is worth more than 216 physical DPS. Before taking resistances into account, that occurs just before 3000 HP.

That's basically the same math, man, with basically the same results. The difference in numbers is probably cause I did mine by hand.

Frankly, the PD build is superior simply because it costs less, lifesteals more, and offers more movespeed. I'm also lazy but red pot and green pot obviously scale much better with a second PD than with MBR.

red pot obviously scales better with a second PD. By about 19 damage per second before resists.

green pot obviously scales better with a MBR. I'm just about as lazy on this one, though, so w/e.

Regardless, being 1k more expensive just isn't enough on its own to justify saying "this is bad on Kog" when considering your last offensive item. 1k isn't hugely significant compared to other considerations, such as what your opponent's survivability looks like or if you bought an early Madred's razor for dragon control.

I'll grant that it is probably a situational pick, but situational != bad, by any measure.

[TechnOkami]

So... this is my typical Yorick build.

-Ninja Tabi early, Merc Treads later
-HoG into Randuin (eventually)
-Manamune
-Sheen into Triforce (eventually)
-Warmogs
-Atma's Impaler

The biggest issue with this build is that it has very, very little MR, and against even the bots (who once they had their items were able to kill us rather quickly), was kind of devastating. Obviously this would be a problem in a normal game, but what's a good MR item on Yorick, and what item would I replace it for?

[Math_Mage]

No....because even with their solid-looking AP ratios, you *still* can't build more viably hybrid than you can going with 'standard' AD items, like even MBR.

I thought the comparison was with Deathcap, not Nashor's Tooth or Malady. Kog's AP ratios lend themselves to AP Kog, not hybrid Kog.

Also, maths(cause I'm curious too):

For Kog'Maw, I'm going to assume he's building boots/IE/BT/PD for his first 4 items, and is saving his 6th for defense.

For his 5th, the options are a PD, LW, BT or MBR.

First, the raw AD numbers(cause they don't count enemy's stats):
PD - 1556 damage per second
BT - 1363 damage per second
LW - 1162 damage per second
MBR - 1336 damage per second

We can already cross BT off in terms of damage, since there's no improvement once enemy numbers come into play.

Now, to compare PD with MBR, PD does 12.87% of the enemy's HP per second. While MBR does 20.46%, a 7.59% improvement. The question is, for what values of Armor, MR and HP does 7.59% of the target's health wind up being greater than 220 physical damage? Well, against a target with 3k HP, they break even when MR is slightly less than armor(due to the slight armor pen from masteries).

While LW would be nicer on someone with physical spells or steroids, on Kog, it just doesn't out-pace PD.

So for damage, PD and MBR are your best options, but MBR makes you harder to itemize against.

All that said, can you please explain why MBR is bad on Kog compared to more typical AD carry items?

The main point is that MBR is bad compared to IE/PD. You might buy MBR in 5% of Kog games where the enemy bruiser is Atmog's without much MR and the game went to 50 minutes, compared with buying IE+PD in 90% of games. When we're talking about 6th item, any 4k gold item with AA enhance will give Kog a solid boost. Yet even when it's the 6th item, the additional expense of MBR makes for a significant window when LW or PD Kog with Christmas pots is simply stronger.

[Terribad]

The main point is that MBR is bad compared to IE/PD....

I'll add on by saying MBR is more of a situational item. IE/PD + Vamp first, MBR if their tanks are stacking health. I'd build it if there is a Voli or Mundo.

[Laudandus]

I've been doing a new Jayce build lately, and I've become convinced it's much better than Triforce/BT or BT rush or IE or whatever I was doing before. I go philo/hog first in lane (this works fine because the base damages on Jayce's abilities are so off the charts he can still bully almost anyone). Then I go for the CDR cap as fast as possible, with items like Shurelia's (always), Zeke's (if AD carry is fed) and Frozen Heart (if no one has it). From there I usually complete Randuin's or build Hexdrinker depending on what I need, and after those items generally build a Last Whisper.

At some point in every build I get a phage, so near the end of the game I turn that phage into a Trinity Force or Frozen Mallet depending on how much damage I'm taking in team fights.

With this build I actually think Jayce is broken. He pushes everything I've tested this against (I've run it 10 or so times) out of lane completely, still does extremely high damage because of his ludicrous base values, and builds essentially full tank. His previously awkward scaling has started to feel near-top-tier.

[Mephit]

So... this is my typical Yorick build.

-Ninja Tabi early, Merc Treads later
-HoG into Randuin (eventually)
-Manamune
-Sheen into Triforce (eventually)
-Warmogs
-Atma's Impaler

The biggest issue with this build is that it has very, very little MR, and against even the bots (who once they had their items were able to kill us rather quickly), was kind of devastating. Obviously this would be a problem in a normal game, but what's a good MR item on Yorick, and what item would I replace it for?

Spirit Visage works well on Yorick. You could just sell your heart of gold once you hit 6 items, I think. Or you could forego Triforce, depending on the situation.

[Zen Master]

So... this is my typical Yorick build.

-Ninja Tabi early, Merc Treads later
-HoG into Randuin (eventually)
-Manamune
-Sheen into Triforce (eventually)
-Warmogs
-Atma's Impaler

The biggest issue with this build is that it has very, very little MR, and against even the bots (who once they had their items were able to kill us rather quickly), was kind of devastating. Obviously this would be a problem in a normal game, but what's a good MR item on Yorick, and what item would I replace it for?

Hm. I start with a mana manipulator - for manamune - and kinda toss together a salad of component pieces for ninja/merc boots, spirit visage, manamune, phage ... completing items as the need arises. I rarely get as far as finishing it, but I usually go for an Atmas next - meaning, I buy the armor, then the game ends.

EDIT: Btw, what is the consensus on runes and masteries for him? I run AD heavy runes, and a somewhat strange 10/9/11 mix for masteries.

[ex cathedra]

I would probably run 1/22/7 (most likely), 9/12/9, or 9/14/7.

I also wouldn't ever buy Atma's on Yorick because it gives pitiful AD, useless crit, and is less useful as both an armor item and a damage-y item than Frozen Heart.

[Zen Master]

I would probably run 1/22/7 (most likely), 9/12/9, or 9/14/7.

I also wouldn't ever buy Atma's on Yorick because it gives pitiful AD, useless crit, and is less useful as both an armor item and a damage-y item than Frozen Heart.

Well - in principle I agree, but as I said: Usually, by the time I have the chain mail component, the game is ending.

For longer games, I can't really agree with you. Atmas in conjunction with frozen mallet and spirit visage is a pretty decent bunch of both damage, sustain and effective health.

I'll admit that the greater CDR on FH might be better for damage - but I'll freely deny that it's just flat-out better ... it's a different path to a similar goal. Excepting perhaps if you're up against an AA carry.

[Talesin]

After 2 defeats yesterday, one after I picked Ryze and got countered by Cass, who I then did a massive favour by derping the game away so hard I totally ruined it for my team, I think I need some help on last hitting in top/mid lane.

I can last hit well on an AD carry. I'm rarely beaten on last hits because I tend to force the other AD out of lane frequently or am just better at last hitting in general. However playing a melee top I suck and I also suck as a mid despite having spells because I use them to farm rather than harass. I'm considering running AD reds just so I can widen the last hitting window at the start of the game and then I can focus my abilities on the enemy champs.

Firstly as a mid I find I spend too many spells last hitting minions. My goal is to push the lane under the turret and go gank or try and kill the opposing mid. I'm not a fan of passive farm lanes mid/top because I feel games are won/lost by your ability to affect other lanes at minimal loss to yourself.

Does anyone have any advice on things I can do here if i'm against someone who is pushing equally hard or just enough to neutralise my push? If my lane opponent isn't pushing then I can usually beat them just because I push so hard, and therefore head off to gank, or because I am so willing to pick a fight. Ideally I want to take their turret as early as possible because it works right into the way I play, but calling for the jungler early is a potential problem if I could end up getting us both killed.

Top lane i've got a similar problem as mid but I would say its more a problem of not getting ahead early enough and landing myself in the situation where i'm zoned off the creep wave or I end up missing last hits because I can't trade effectively anymore.

As a side note when do people run mana regen masteries/runes? I tend to run Mp5 as a mid but don't ever tend to run them top. Having seen the power of Raka/Graves due to his near infinite buckshots i'm wondering whether I should run them on some of the tops I play so I can dominate the lanes with additional abilities before I have to back. I wonder if this could maybe be solved with a mana pot or two..

[Math_Mage]

I've been doing a new Jayce build lately, and I've become convinced it's much better than Triforce/BT or BT rush or IE or whatever I was doing before. I go philo/hog first in lane (this works fine because the base damages on Jayce's abilities are so off the charts he can still bully almost anyone). Then I go for the CDR cap as fast as possible, with items like Shurelia's (always), Zeke's (if AD carry is fed) and Frozen Heart (if no one has it). From there I usually complete Randuin's or build Hexdrinker depending on what I need, and after those items generally build a Last Whisper.

At some point in every build I get a phage, so near the end of the game I turn that phage into a Trinity Force or Frozen Mallet depending on how much damage I'm taking in team fights.

With this build I actually think Jayce is broken. He pushes everything I've tested this against (I've run it 10 or so times) out of lane completely, still does extremely high damage because of his ludicrous base values, and builds essentially full tank. His previously awkward scaling has started to feel near-top-tier.

Well, I just bought Jayce recently and I want to learn top lane, so I'll follow your advice as a starting point for him. It's like what Zach has been doing with Hecarim in jungle, except Hecarim already has a speed boost so you just get Frozen Heart and win.

[PersonMan]

Firstly as a mid I find I spend too many spells last hitting minions. My goal is to push the lane under the turret and go gank or try and kill the opposing mid. I'm not a fan of passive farm lanes mid/top because I feel games are won/lost by your ability to affect other lanes at minimal loss to yourself.

Personally, my advice would be to focus on farming early, try to gain a gold advantage, then leverage that to snowball your lead until you utterly control the lane.

Then you push and gank. Ganking without a solid advantage in lane means that the enemy, if they react well, can get an advantage over you in level/gold because they farm while you walk across the map.

EDIT: Your mana problems can almost definitely be solved by just conserving it more, but you can also just itemize for some mana to help yourself.

Against magic damage heavy tops, you can grab a Chalice of Harmony, against AD tops you can go for an early Glacial Shroud. Both give mana regen or mana as well as resistances.

[Joran]

Last night, my friends and I had one of our best Yomi anticipations ever. We did our usual level 1 jungle invade, caught the mid as she was preparing to help the Jungler with Wolves for first blood and chased their Warwick away from their Blue.

Someone made the call that Warwick is going to think we stole his Blue, so we should go back to our Blue and catch him there. We move as a team to our Blue, wait, and sure enough he shows up. Gank him, two kills up and the rout was on.

I think the only thing we could have done that would have really pissed them off is to have warded their Blue and then TP in to kill and steal it ;)

[Lix Lorn]

So... hybrid xin zhao.
Start with a ring. Heal enough to just ignore harass. Leap on them and punch them if they stick at it. Farm all the things. Never die.

Hybrid Xin is fun and surprisingly effective.

[NineThePuma]

Only possible tweak to your build I would have done is picking up an early Kage's for the GP/10. You were unimpressive at getting those last hits.

[Lix Lorn]

Shush. >_>
Yeah, and I should've kept farming rather than doing all of the roaming. More money faster would have helped.

[NineThePuma]

Somebody here has that farming competition thing. I want to try my Xin against yours. XD

[Lix Lorn]

Only if we do the kind where I'm allowed to hit you. I don't do passive laning. xD

[PersonMan]

Vlad free week. I will once again try playing him and hope that I don't utterly fail this time...

[MCerberus]

Vlad free week. I will once again try playing him and hope that I don't utterly fail this time...

Vlad free week?
Time to play more Annie and laugh as Vlad goes 100-0 during a Tibbers stun.


Bad Vlads just really love assuming their invincible because they can just pool out.

[ex cathedra]

In before mass CDR item nerfs. The fact that champions like Darius, Jayce, Xin Zhao, and Olaf are just building Shurelya's, Frozen Heart, and Randuin's every game is probably not intended behavior. This goes along with S3 itemization and bruiser rework, perhaps, but I don't expect things to remain like this indefinitely.

[PersonMan]

Vlad free week?


Bad Vlads just really love assuming their invincible because they can just pool out.

Yeah, Trollpool seems a lot weaker once you realize it has a huge cooldown.

EDIT: Well, after a long 1v1 bot game...Well, I realized early in laning that Tides of Blood's AoE is huge compared to what I thought it was. It's also a lot more central to Vlad than I had thought before.

Also considering Tankimir.

[toasty]

Yeah, Trollpool seems a lot weaker once you realize it has a huge cooldown.

EDIT: Well, after a long 1v1 bot game...Well, I realized early in laning that Tides of Blood's AoE is huge compared to what I thought it was. It's also a lot more central to Vlad than I had thought before.

Also considering Tankimir.

People think Vlad is OP cuz of Trollpool, but actually a huge reason he's really strong is because E+R = HUGE amounts of free damage.

[TechnOkami]

Also considering Tankimir.

I wouldn't suggest it. Building him AP rather than a Health Tank is stronger, because he gains damage as well as a defensive stat (health), and building health on him gives him less ap, and doesn't compensate his lack of damage.

[Silverraptor]

I just saw something completely unreal today. In my school library just as I was about to pack up to leave for my next class, someone suddenly calls out to some couple passing by, yelling at them that they realized it was a library. The couple then turned around and confronted him, yelling back that he should mind his own business in as many cusswords as possible. Then another person sitting at a different table joined in against the couple asking them how old they were, and then decided to say they were really 12 and "good luck being in college".

They just all stood there for a couple minutes yelling at each other and blowing each other off, not caring that the entire library was packed full of people trying to study and were all staring at them. With only the faintest amount of imagination, I could see the whole thing as a lol game where people on the same team are bitching at each other, especially the whole "How old are you? Oh you must be 12." The only thing this conversation was missing was the words "noob" "feeder" and "report".

I thought the internet was what brought the worst of people, but to see them behave exactly in real life like they do in LoL. I now lost any sympathy for any "ragers" since I now know they just behave like that anywhere. I still can't believe that just happened.

[Lix Lorn]

I just saw something completely unreal today. In my school library just as I was about to pack up to leave for my next class, someone suddenly calls out to some couple passing by, yelling at them that they realized it was a library. The couple then turned around and confronted him, yelling back that he should mind his own business in as many cusswords as possible. Then another person sitting at a different table joined in against the couple asking them how old they were, and then decided to say they were really 12 and "good luck being in college".

They just all stood there for a couple minutes yelling at each other and blowing each other off, not caring that the entire library was packed full of people trying to study and were all staring at them. With only the faintest amount of imagination, I could see the whole thing as a lol game where people on the same team are bitching at each other, especially the whole "How old are you? Oh you must be 12." The only thing this conversation was missing was the words "noob" "feeder" and "report".

I thought the internet was what brought the worst of people, but to see them behave exactly in real life like they do in LoL. I now lost any sympathy for any "ragers" since I now know they just behave like that anywhere. I still can't believe that just happened.

...
(hugs?)

[TechnOkami]

I just saw something completely unreal today. In my school library just as I was about to pack up to leave for my next class, someone suddenly calls out to some couple passing by, yelling at them that they realized it was a library. The couple then turned around and confronted him, yelling back that he should mind his own business in as many cusswords as possible. Then another person sitting at a different table joined in against the couple asking them how old they were, and then decided to say they were really 12 and "good luck being in college".

They just all stood there for a couple minutes yelling at each other and blowing each other off, not caring that the entire library was packed full of people trying to study and were all staring at them. With only the faintest amount of imagination, I could see the whole thing as a lol game where people on the same team are bitching at each other, especially the whole "How old are you? Oh you must be 12." The only thing this conversation was missing was the words "noob" "feeder" and "report".

I thought the internet was what brought the worst of people, but to see them behave exactly in real life like they do in LoL. I now lost any sympathy for any "ragers" since I now know they just behave like that anywhere. I still can't believe that just happened.

Real Life needs a Tribunal.

[Mtg_player_zach]

Real Life needs a Tribunal.

It's called prison.

[ex cathedra]

Vlad free week.

Rules of Vlad free week:

• Don't farm with Sanguine Pool.
• Don't. Farm. With. Sanguine. Pool.
• Seriously, you don't farm with that. Just spam E instead.
• Don't build Warmogs. Get it together, people.

Vlad free week?
Time to play more Annie and laugh as Vlad goes 100-0 during a Tibbers stun.

Would require a rather bad Vlad, though.

I now lost any sympathy for any "ragers" since I now know they just behave like that anywhere.

Sympathy? Huge mistake. Raging and/or ragequitting is kind of downright pathetic, and I think it shows a large amount of unsuitability for competitive games like the one that we're playing.