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2012-09-18, 08:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
That's crystal clear. (But seriously... are there really people on here who think Tarquin is Epic?!?!? I don't think I've ever seen anyone claim such nonsense.)
From a narrative perspective, it's always been obvious, since his very intro as the "SW parallel" equivalent of Darth Vader, that Tarquin was significantly more powerful than any single Order member yet less powerful than the story's BBEG.Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2012-09-18, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
The last spoiled bullet in post is a summary of a multipage argument from this very thread over whether or not Tarquin is epic, and the summary shows that the argument that he's epic most definitely WAS being made.
Or you could reread this thread.
And I'm pretty sure I've seen it in previous threads. Yes, I agree that claiming Tarquin is epic based on anything we've seen is pretty clearly nonsense, but that hasn't actually stopped people and claiming that no one has made the claim is also nonsense.
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2012-09-18, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
Brewing a new setting (3.5 ed D&D). The setting is complete and ready to play.
Indeed, here is the recruitment thread for the first run.
The above post was probably snide, snippy, tongue in cheek and/or opinionated. Consult your sense of humour before vexation. If still vexed, attempt to cease giving a damn. Thank you for reading this public service bulletin.
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2012-09-18, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
Actually...... If anything, a catalyst is one of the most active ingredients. Technically, a catalyst makes the reaction work faster/better/more efficiently than the ingredients alone. In chemical terms, it is not depleted in the course of the reaction, so it can continue to work as long as there are enough individual components that are to be reacted.
For inactive ingredients, there are several other options. One that many people are commenting on are additives that do nothing beyond cosmetic changes (i.e. color dye, fragrance, flavoring...). Another option is that it is a stabilizer, which is actually pretty much the opposite of a catalyst -- it does not contribute to the overall function, but can help in maintaining the preparation (i.e. extending shelf life (where stable for 1 year instead of 1 month, for example), widening the storage conditions (such as higher/lower temps), changing the consistency (for example liquid to paste), or acting as a grounding for the active agents/catalysts (such as increasing the amount of magic contained)).78% of all DM's start their first campaign in a tavern. If you're among the 22% who didn't, copy and paste this into your signature and tell us where you DID begin.The players were attacked individually on the road on the way to town by werewolves. To survive, they had to team up then and there without knowing anything about eachother (literally -- all character sheets were completed without other players' knowledge).
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2012-09-18, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2012-09-18, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-09-18, 05:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
hakflem- I would like to point out that a ton of effort, including a handy logic reference chart, has gone into demonstrating that T could possibly be a Blackguard, thus proving you wrong, in fact even getting you to capitulate and say that you were wrong. All of this has been a complete waste of time, and you were right in the first place, when you said that T was probably not a Blackguard. Proving that something is possible does not make it probable, and in this case, straight fighter is the more probable scenario. He is, in fact, probably not a Blackguard, as per your original statement.
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2012-09-18, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
78% of all DM's start their first campaign in a tavern. If you're among the 22% who didn't, copy and paste this into your signature and tell us where you DID begin.The players were attacked individually on the road on the way to town by werewolves. To survive, they had to team up then and there without knowing anything about eachother (literally -- all character sheets were completed without other players' knowledge).
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2012-09-18, 08:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
From a pharmacuetical point of view (where the phrase 'inactive ingredient' is most likely to be seen), a catalyst would be an active ingredient as it would be required. Inactive ingredients are literal - they contribute nothing to the actual function of the compound.
So the joke is that Tarquin can't even have a petroleum based magic salve without making it unnecessarily evil.
Edit: It occurred to me after posting to google it. The FDA definition of 'Inactive Ingredient' is "A substance regarded by the FDA as having no effect on a drug's absorption or metabolism, which is added for manufacturer expediency." For a catalyst to matter it would have to do one or the other and would then not be inactive.Last edited by Throknor; 2012-09-18 at 08:12 PM.
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2012-09-18, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
If it were a catalyst required for the generation of the active compound, but one which was physiologically inert with respect to the actual action of the medicine in your body, it would be an inactive ingredient. If it were a catalyst required for the reaction which elicits the physiological response, then it would be an active ingredient.
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2012-09-18, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2005
Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
I desperately want to see Malack vs Durkon, I think we would see a very resourceful Durkon come out on top. And then Malack would ally with OotS and then get pie. Yayyy!
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2012-09-19, 01:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
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2012-09-19, 06:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
I love that Keoghtum is a cross between Keoghtom's ointment and Tums.
Keoghtom's ointment, by the way, goes at least as far back as the 1st Ed Dungeon Master's Guide. I don't recall seeing
Keoghtom's ointment in original D&D, although it might have popped up in Dragon Magazine before getting adopted into the DMG.Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
The irony is that my favorite colors are black and red, and I almost always play chaotic good characters.
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2012-09-19, 05:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
I'm a little late in the game but a great comic none the less.
SpoilerNow I'm just waiting for TE to show up and make this a three way grab for the gate.Bread, blankets, and books are a lot cheaper than bullets, bombs, and bodies - Todd Tennison
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2012-09-19, 09:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
A quick point to be made in the "Could Tarquin be a Blackguard?" discussion--not proof one way or the other, but an interesting observation:
To become a Blackguard, you have to make friendly contact with an evil outsider. This is referenced in the strip--Sabine attempts to seduce Miko to Blackguard-ism when told Miko is an ex-Paladin, and is apparently familiar with the bonuses a succubus can earn for achieving such a seduction.
Tarquin's made lecherous remarks about Sabine that suggest that he's had extremely friendly contact with her in the past.
Now, Tarquin's a lech, and Sabine could be familiar with those bonuses without ever having converted a Blackguard, and even if she has, it's not necessarily Tarquin.
On the other hand, this could be a very neat set of clues to Tarquin's backstory, suggesting a Vader-like fall from grace. Plenty of Vader references around Tarquin, after all.
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2012-09-19, 11:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
Note, on the other hand, that Tarquin could simply be a Paladin of Tyrrany (and then possibly taken levels of Blackguard if he wanted to do so, without trading any paladin levels). We haven't seen any UA stuff in-comic thus far, as far as I know, but this is probably among the most common material used from that book.
I really do doubt he's anything other than a single-classed fighter or martial adept, though.
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2012-09-20, 12:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
I am surprised that no one has suggested Tarquin to be a factotum. He's versatile, has a lot of tricks, bunch of skills...
I know it is a relatively new class but it seems to fit.
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2012-09-20, 12:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
Actually, no it wouldn't. Harry at best could get attempted murder vs Snape and I think one other, but against Tom Marvelo Riddle, Harry never tried to murder him.
Harry vs Voldemort first match, Harry is a baby, Voldemort attempts murder, spell bounces back.
Harry vs Voldemort second match, Harry has no wand while Voldemort is on the back of Quirrel's head, again Voldemort initiates the fight, Harry defends himself, Quirrel gets destroyed, Harry faints, Voldemort is sent away
Harry vs Voldemort third match, Diary Horcrux Tom Riddle tries to kill Harry, Harry beats Basilisk, uses fang to stab diary, horcrux number destroyed, but Voldemort still around.
Harry vs Voldemort fourth match, Harry is dragged to the graveyard, injured, surrounded, Voldemort is restored and now immune to the touch defense, yes, Harry does try to use killing curse (but doesn't really mean it, and it is still in his own defense, Cedric was already dead, and Voldemort wants to kill Harry), but this was just the battle of Wands, and Harry fled instead of trying to finish Voldemort.
Harry vs Voldemort fifth match, the battle in Harry's body, Harry is held hostage in his own body by Voldemort Possession, Voldemort is ejected by the power of love.
Harry vs Voldemort sixth match, Voldemort attacks with borrowed wand, Harry's wand wins again, many people die, but no attempt to kill Voldemort.
Harry vs Voldemort sixth match, Harry and his friends have destroyed most of the Horcruxes, with only 1 intentional (Nagini) and 1 unintentional (Harry) left, Harry goes to the woods, doesn't defend himself, Voldemort tries to kill him, Harry has his vision quest, the Horcrux in the scar dies, Harry lives, Voldemort doesn't know.
Harry vs Voldemort seventh match, Harry with Malfoy's wand, Voldemort with the Elder Wand, Nagini the last Horcrux killed by Neville (the other child of wizarding parents who'd defied Voldemort multiple times, born around the same time as Harry), Harry warns Voldemort, Voldemort shoots the killing curse, Harry uses the disarming spell, Voldemort's spell rebounds and kills him instead... Harry was not committing murder.
Hey, Mr. Scruffy and Blackwing are important too, Blackwing has gone from cawing and overlooked to speaking common and viewed as important and more then a class feature, Mr. Scruffy is a major factor and secret weapon. Neither should be dismissed and ignored when listing members of the Order.
Playing Devil's Advocate here, but... Roy beat Xykon unarmed... Tarquin could use the whip, steal the Phylactry (yes, I know it is a fake, but in Tarquin's hands the fake is still leverage to control Xykon) and voila, Xykon won't raise a metatarsus against Xykon nor the rest of the Linear Guild.
Worf? Ridiculously powerful? The guy was a wuss from square one. If you need any proof, merely go watch Data/Lore (or better yet, listen to a youtube video of Wil Wheaton's rants about the episode). The following list were characters who humiliated Worf during TNG (in no particular order, I will skip the ones who humiliated him in DS9, unless they like he were carry overs): Deanna, Miko, Wesley, Guinan, Data, Hugh, Will, Tasha, Lore, Q, and Reg (just off the top of my head).
I counter your Big Stuff equaled heroes with Sisyphus (defeated death and outwitted Hades and Zeus, multiple times), Midas (became epicly wealthy, gambled against Apollo, is legendary for his golden touch which many see as good despite it being a cautionary tale), Antaeus (slaughtered thousands with his bare hands), Arachne (outwove Athena), and Autolycus (Stole from anyone and everyone without getting caught).
Okay, 1) Xykon knows Nale, 2) Redcloak knows Nale... both will kill him, and anyone with him. Nale lied through his teeth to his dad, and if the prescription for evil (seriously, we call them RC and X, it is a great new nickname for them) show up the new LG's only hope is that MitD decides to play who can hit softer with them.
Sorry, I editing you way down, but it was a great breakdown of everything, I just decided to keep your intro statements, and my favorite highlight (yes, I biased, it is still awesome to see my points be listened to)
I'm not sure if it was done directly, but either way, I'd like to thank you for cleaning up the messy arguments, and putting all that time into putting so much together. I had a few added points when I initially read this, but they were covered later by main debaters on the topic.
I will point out that technically, Tarquin is not sufficiently old enough to be Epic. Every Epic level character we've seen so far (Xykon, Dorukan, Girard, most likely most of the rest of the Order of the Scribble except Kraagor... remember Dorukan was extremely old when he fought Xykon and was the youngest of the Order of the Scribble, and Shojo was a little kid when an extremely old Soon passed on the protection of the gate to Shojo's father... and I believe Shojo was around 80 at time of death) was one who had to reach extreme years, usually with some form of extending their lifespan (That isn't to say Tarquin can't have the means, but just that he hasn't yet had the time), which Tarquin has yet to havce time to have done. We do know, despite his many marriages, his sons are only in their 20s, making the odds that Tarquin is most likely at most in his 60s, and we know a good portion of that was done mainly acting as a general instead of adventuring (since Nale helped him with some of those takeovers, along with the earliest known iteration of the Linear Guild) before turning against Tarquin (also note the color of Tarquin's hair when he is running with Nale... and that Malack was unable to banish Sabine, Empress of blood can't bite through Thog, and Yikyik... why is Yikyik fleeing?)... so odds are that Tarquin is only a few levels above his sons. Also note, Nale and Elan's mom is Tarquin's 1st wife... so he uses wives like tissue paper, he's not really been adventuring that much over the years, and his new tactic for conquering means there are NO Challenges at all, the opposition is already really on his side.
I WANNA PLAY ONE... this is awesome!!! This would make sense (sort of, since it is similar to Nale and Elan's own classes) ... it is like a 2nd Ed/AD&D Bard, sort of, only better... however, Tarquin, like Ian, is probably a 1st Ed class, so not likely.Last edited by Sweet_Goddess; 2012-09-20 at 01:15 AM.
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2012-09-20, 04:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
Worf? Ridiculously powerful? The guy was a wuss from square one. If you need any proof, merely go watch Data/Lore (or better yet, listen to a youtube video of Wil Wheaton's rants about the episode). The following list were characters who humiliated Worf during TNG (in no particular order, I will skip the ones who humiliated him in DS9, unless they like he were carry overs): Deanna, Miko, Wesley, Guinan, Data, Hugh, Will, Tasha, Lore, Q, and Reg (just off the top of my head).
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2012-09-20, 04:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
The same thing happened in the first season of the animated Justice League series. They wanted to show that the bad buy was REALLY powerful by taking out Superman before the opening credits, but they did it so often that Superman just looked weak. They sure made up for that latter when they had Superman kick the tar out of Darkseid in Justice League Unlimited--not once, but twice.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
The irony is that my favorite colors are black and red, and I almost always play chaotic good characters.
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2012-09-20, 08:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
I think the wings are the only part that IS actually transparent (as you can see Kilkil, as well as Nale's arm through it when they take off). I think the rest of what you're seeing are supposed to be clouds of sand stirred up by the dinosaur's wings that are between the "camera" and the characters.
Last edited by Grey Watcher; 2012-09-20 at 08:29 AM.
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2012-09-20, 08:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
The irony is that my favorite colors are black and red, and I almost always play chaotic good characters.
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2012-09-20, 09:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
During the show's finale, they sort-of explained this by saying
SpoilerSuperman is so strong that most of the time he's afraid of accidentally killing some one if he fight's them. (there was a prior episode where a villian gave the whole team nightmares where this showed up, too).
So basically, Superman isn't "weak", he's just letting himself get smacked around a bit because he finds it preferably to the alternative. Darkseid is pretty much the only person who is both strong enough and evil enough that Superman is willing to go full strength.Last edited by Deepbluediver; 2012-09-20 at 09:45 AM.
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2012-09-20, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
Yes, there were a couple of animated DC items where they had Superman talk about how he could finally hit with all his strength, but Bruce Timm gave a mea cupla in one of the DVD commentaries where he admitted that they overused the "oh look, the enemy is so strong it too out Superman" riff so that it just made him look weak instead.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
The irony is that my favorite colors are black and red, and I almost always play chaotic good characters.
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2012-09-20, 11:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
Hmm...I've heard that there are people who complain that in the DC continuity (at least whichever one they're using this week) Superman is too strong to make interessting stories about because he can't really be challenged (at least not without blowing up the planet again).
It seems at least a little bit similar to how people are complaining about Tarquin, except that while I agree with the Superman theory, I absolutely love big T and I think it's refreshing to finally see a character who doesn't isn't an absolute failure every time they show up on screen.
I wonder what the difference is?
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2012-09-20, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Holy_Knight; 2012-09-20 at 11:58 AM.
HUMANS....... ARE....... SUPERIORRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But she was naked! And all... articulate!!
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2012-09-20, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
From the Golden Age through the end of the Silver Age, Superman's powers crept up from "can leap tall buildings at a single bound" to "fly at close to the speed of light" and from "nothing short of a bursting bomb blast" could harm him to pretty much nothing but kryptonite could do lethal damage. He started out as a step above Doc Savage, the Man of Bronze (steel being stronger than bronze), to having god-like physical capabilities. It became increasingly hard to challenge the the late Silver Age Superman unless you had kryptonite, and it became boring having a fire sale on kryptonite every month. At one point he actually blew out a star (like you'd blow out a candle). The Superman of the Christopher Reeves films wasn't quite at the apogee of Silver Age power, but he was definitely a Silver Age version (even though by that time the Bronze Age was starting in the comics). Dean Cain's Superman was powered down a bit--for instance, he couldn't breath in space (or needed to breath in space, whichever way you want to look at it) and needed an air supply to go meet a meteor. Christopher Reeve's Superman flew unaided into space, and apparently could even speak in a vacuum. They tried in the Silver Age to make Superman vulnerable to magic, and that worked for a bit, but as I recall, fans didn't really like it that much, since he was already vulnerable to kryptonite.
So in the Bronze Age they powered Superman down substantially. They made him definitively slower than the Flash, and physically weaker than he had been (and in one story apparently unable to fly), but kept his vulnerabilities to kryptonite and magic. They also, I believe, got rid of the whole "Superboy collects kryptonite to build up an immunity." The Dean Cain Superman actually got punched out by bionic guys, which would be pretty weak for someone who could push around tectonic plates.
When Timm started the animated Superman, he started with a fairly powered-down Superman. Superman couldn't breathe in space and got beat up by a guy in powered armor. Over the course of the Superman and Justice League series, however, Timm slowly made him more powerful (excluding the first year of Justice League when he got beat up before the opening credits every episode ). I'm not sure if Timm set out with the intention of slowly powering him up (and indeed redid the classic Silver Age Superman-Flash race around the world pretty early on, making Superman as fast as Flash again), but that's ultimately what he did. In later stories he even had Superman comment on it, and in one episode a villain trapped Superman in a mental world of his own fear (trapped each of them in his or her own world of fear), in which Superman was SO strong that he couldn't hug Jimmy without breaking him. (Flash's fear world had Flash moving SO fast that everyone was a stone statue to him and he was living out his life between human heart beats.)
Superman was never too powerful in the DCAU for the writers to challenge him. Even at his most powerful, where he beat the tar of out Darkseid (twice), the writers just didn't have any trouble. They never made him as powerful as they had in the Silver Age, certainly not able to blow out stars, and I think maybe not even able to shift tectonic plates, and never able to breath in space.
Now Timm did get some criticism, especially at first in the Superman series, that Superman should have been able to do all the things he could do in the Silver Age, and Timm replied that then he wouldn't be able to challenge Superman. Timm though started him so weak that he could power him up a great deal and still not worry about making him too powerful to write stories for. Some of the best stories with Superman actually occur during the third season of Justice League (aka the first season of Justice League Unlimited) where he was at his most powerful in the DCAU.
Edit: Hey Holy Knight! Long time no see! I love your quotation from Mal!Last edited by CelestialStick; 2012-09-20 at 12:27 PM.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
The irony is that my favorite colors are black and red, and I almost always play chaotic good characters.
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2012-09-20, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
That one's old.
Gawain was originally Arthur's best knight, the most courteous, best fighter, and his faithful right hand. Gawain usually carried Excaliber, because Arthur thought he was a better caretaker. Kay was also right up there.
Then every added knight needed to be shown to be powerful. So they beat up Gawain and/or Kay, who needed to be presented as a petty bully for it to make sense that all these knights who were serving Arthur fought his favorite nephew, faithful right hand, and heir presumptive or his foster brother.
By the time of Mallory the decay was already quite severe.
Gawain basically is useless throughout Mallory. Kay is the guy who runs the household and picks on anyone who shows up disguised as a petty servant, and Lancelot uses Kay's shield at least once because no one will fight Lancelot while no one is afraid to fight Kay. Odd, because even in Mallory Kay is still the guy who kills two kings in one battle early in Arthur's reign and saves the day in at least one major battle.
But that was before everyone and his pet dog got to beat Kay to show how tough they were.
I suspect if we knew enough about pre-Homeric greek stories we'd find that bunches of the "minor" heroes that get beat up in the Illiad were major heroes in older stories. The hunt for the Calydonian boar and the quest for the Golden Fleece both also look like they may have some of that.
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2012-09-20, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
There are several issues with this though;
0) Obviously, in terms of plot, Tarquin beating Xykon is about as likely as the Red Sox winning the next 15 world series in a row. Theoretically, maybe, but you might as well play the lottery if you like those kinds of odds.
1) Tarquin's power (like most melee types in D&D) is in his items, Xykon can destroy every single one of them without a Save in one Standard Action with MDJ. Then move onto hitting him with Magic Missile from 100ft up in the air until he gets bored.
2) Xykon is incredibly careful to ward his Phylactery against damn-near everything. Unless Tarquin has been hiding a Scroll of MDJ this whole time (such a good spell...) there's exactly 0% chance that threatening his Phylactery would do anything but earn him a painful death.
3) Phylactery =/= Horcrux. Even if his Phylactery is destroyed, Xykon is "vulnerable" for exactly as long as it takes for him to make a new one and he is still an Epic Sorcerer with the Undead immunity list.Last edited by Water_Bear; 2012-09-20 at 02:04 PM.
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2012-09-20, 03:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #863 - The Discussion Thread
Xykon does not know MDJ, unless he has a scroll of his own.