General Exalted Discussion Thread XI: Great Job, You Broke the Scale.

[golentan]

I'm going to go ahead and say it. A primordial counts more as far as discussions of morality go than any human, and more than many groups of humans. In part, there's the simple arithmetic that if you kill a human, one sentience dies, while if you kill a primordial at a minimum more than a hundred sentiences die not even counting 1st circle emanations. And from another angle, an argument can be made that few if any primordials have free will in a meaningful sense of the word, and so can't be held morally accountable for their actions in the same way because as written they are incapable of understanding that, for example, melting a few million people in acid might be considered a bad thing. Doesn't mean they're not dangerous, doesn't mean you shouldn't take what steps you need to to prevent them melting those few million people, but it's hard to treat them as evil in my worldview. Except the ebon dragon, but I think that's the way he'd want it. A toddler can be an obnoxious, cruel brat with no regard for human life, but they're still an innocent by dint of their inability to conceive of right and wrong in the same way as they will when they're older.

Can't blame the humans for rising up. Can't even blame them for killing so many of the primordials when the choice was between that and extinction. But I can blame them for what they did to the survivors when there were other options. I can recognize that what the yozis need is to undergo reparative therapy, and that they should not under any circumstances be released without it. But I can empathize with them, and believe they should be released if those circumstances can be met.

[Xefas]

And what torment will the Yozis put humanity through if they are released? An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

At worst? Malfeas probably sentences them all to 10,000 years of nightmarish agony and then they all die.

It's terrible and tragic and something that could ideally be avoided (you'll have to talk to Gensh about that), but it's the worst case scenario, and still literally infinitely more merciful than what humanity would do to them.

Maybe Karjack will man up and Creation-Slaying Oblivion Kick as he sees the gates of Hell swing forth.

[Amechra]

Just to make it clear...

I actually don't think "the Yozi get free" is that bad of an outcome.

Why?

Because, well, they are going to be opposed by, for one thing, the Ebon Dragon, who, though he is very, very weak combat wise, could sell a guy his own skin.

The Raksha would probably attack at a noticed moment of weakness... and would meet Adorjan. It would be fun to watch, from a very, very large distance away.

And who would the Yozi even be going after? They would go against the enemies that they actually have a vendetta against first. Namely, Exalts. They probably wouldn't end up specifically tormenting humans, because they still don't matter.

And meanwhile, you'd have at least a few Infernals still running around, because they have a place in the Hierarchy, and would still be useful in rooting out pesky Solars.

And they would probably end up attacking our good friends the Neverborn, because if Auto-kun freaked 'em out...

Actually, a question I just thought of- who designed Lethe? And what would you have to do to get them to tweak it to allow a Primordial Soul Architecture to be properly recycled?

[Lord Raziere]

Actually, a question I just thought of- who designed Lethe? And what would you have to do to get them to tweak it to allow a Primordial Soul Architecture to be properly recycled?

Nobody knows, its all mysterious.

really, there is no explanation for who is responsible for Lethe. no book ever answered that, and now that 3E is coming? NEVER WILL. cause the writers and fanbase like their mystery and lack of answers.

meaning? make up whatever you want.

as for the grim morality discussion over there, I do have something to say…but I'm going to show some wisdom and not say it. I'm not gonna participate in that discussion.

[Exthalion]

Edit: I had a rant here against Jade Dragon. Upon reflection it was far too vitrolic. Simply to state my opinion: Not cool man. I will leave it at that.

Yozi. Right. It seems to me that these discussions of varying morality doesn't hold water. The primordial may be too vast to notice an individual human's sentience, but their soul pantheons are not. In fact, humans seem to some degree to be molded after their soul pantheons. Octavian for example is not particularly different from a human in terms of the capabilities of his mind.

Yet the Yozi are able to recognize that their own second circle souls are beings with worth and desires out of life. They know this because the motivation -> intimacy assures them that the desires of lesser beings are in fact important. They don't have to individually notice a particular human, their souls are capable of interacting with humans on a meaningful level which means the yozi as a whole is capable of interaction with humans on a meaningful level.

Yes, the war was justified. Yes, what the Exalted did after was not. However it seems that the great deficit on both sides was ignorance. The Exalted essentially sent the mentally ill to prison. The Yozi were too self absorbed to care about the moral dynamic of their actions. Given that there were a lot of high compassion individuals on the Exalt side they likely did not understand mental illness to that degree. Medicine charms can fix those sorts of things in humans. The Yozis' are part of their nature.

As shown by the Aftershock Titan primordials can change their own themes and be changed. However instead of this being a wakeup call to the Exalted host that the Yozi might be redeemable (Except TED) it only confirmed what they already thought that they were dangerous lunatic monsters.

[Tavar]

I like how we know of all these magnificent better options that are never exposed in universe(yes, SWLiHN offered to switch: but either she offered only at the end, and thus is untrustworthy, or they cannot be sure she won't switch sides again).

And from another angle, an argument can be made that few if any primordials have free will in a meaningful sense of the word, and so can't be held morally accountable for their actions in the same way because as written they are incapable of understanding that, for example, melting a few million people in acid might be considered a bad thing.

If they cannot be held accountable for their actions, then there's a strong argument that it doesn't matter what you do to them.

Also, one thing: Theion was the Holy Tyrant, seizing by force his place from another. So, he set the precedent.

But I can blame them for what they did to the survivors when there were other options. I can recognize that what the yozis need is to undergo reparative therapy, and that they should not under any circumstances be released without it. But I can empathize with them, and believe they should be released if those circumstances can be met.

What options?

[Plague of Hats]

Theion was the King, and part of his essential nature required that he show mercy and compassion towards his subjects, even benevolence.

No, not really. Gunstar!Theion has a capacity for Compassion that is entirely subordinate to his Conviction and his desire to be a magnificent ruler. He is magnanimous because that is how you keep peace in a kingdom, not because he is actually kind. Even then, he is not actually required to be so, he is only enabled to be so.

And from another angle, an argument can be made that few if any primordials have free will in a meaningful sense of the word, and so can't be held morally accountable for their actions in the same way because as written they are incapable of understanding that, for example, melting a few million people in acid might be considered a bad thing.

Though he talked about it on forums and sort of moved in that general direction in Return, Neph never actually wrote that kind of volition completely out of the Primordials.

[golentan]

If they cannot be held accountable for their actions, then there's a strong argument that it doesn't matter what you do to them.

Now there's a non-sequitur if ever I heard one. The fact that a child isn't mentally competent to be tried as an adult doesn't mean that it's moral to do whatever you want with them.

What options?

Banish them to the Wyld to go create a new world instead of locking them away from the entirety of the external world. Let SWLIHN try to design that alternate hierarchy she proposed, with the caveat there be numerous safeguards against betrayal. Order the yozis to prune their own soul trees less traumatically, using their own understanding to make them god-and-human friendly in sort of the opposite of what Ramethus did leading up to the aftershock war. Solar Hug Charms.

[Exthalion]

Solar Hug Charms.

Don't forget Solar DUDE! charms for ones like Isodorus and Derp charms for dealing with TED on a level that he will understand and appreciate.

[Tavar]

Now there's a non-sequitur if ever I heard one. The fact that a child isn't mentally competent to be tried as an adult doesn't mean that it's moral to do whatever you want with them.

You're right, that was poor phrasing on my part. Though, nice non-sequitur as well: the Primordials aren't children, and their moral outlook does not appear to really grow.

Banish them to the Wyld to go create a new world instead of locking them away from the entirety of the external world. Let SWLIHN try to design that alternate hierarchy she proposed, with the caveat there be numerous safeguards against betrayal. Order the yozis to prune their own soul trees less traumatically, using their own understanding to make them god-and-human friendly in sort of the opposite of what Ramethus did leading up to the aftershock war. Solar Hug Charms.

Can they forbid them from coming back to the world, though? From what the game line shows, it seems likely that they couldn't.

The Ultimate hierarchy involves stripping away all free will from the world, something I doubt Humanity or the gods want. Especially since it would put them at the mercy of the people they just fought a war against in order to determine their own fate.

Also, I like that you brought up the soul pruning argument. You realize you're talking about forcibly murdering multiple beings, and doing so to lobotomize another. And you're saying that this is the right course of action? Didn't Humanity already decide that this is rather immoral?

As for the last option....none of their charms or capabilities seem like they would be too effective there. The only charm that would work that way only does so on willing targets, which the Primordials weren't.

[Exthalion]

You're right, that was poor phrasing on my part. Though, nice non-sequitur as well: the Primordials aren't children, and their moral outlook does not appear to really grow.



Can they forbid them from coming back to the world, though? From what the game line shows, it seems likely that they couldn't.

The Ultimate hierarchy involves stripping away all free will from the world, something I doubt Humanity or the gods want. Especially since it would put them at the mercy of the people they just fought a war against in order to determine their own fate.

Also, I like that you brought up the soul pruning argument. You realize you're talking about forcibly murdering multiple beings, and doing so to lobotomize another. And you're saying that this is the right course of action? Didn't Humanity already decide that this is rather immoral?

As for the last option....none of their charms or capabilities seem like they would be too effective there. The only charm that would work that way only does so on willing targets, which the Primordials weren't.

Humans are okay with execution though. It is possible some of the more troublesome souls were guilty of warcrimes anyway and could be removed for other reasons while also taking advantage of the sudden hole that opened up. If they have lower souls the Sidereal promote to god charm would likely work as they wouldn't want to die.

[Tavar]

I like how TED keeps being put apart. Yes, he's a bastard, but if you are really excusing the other primordials because you can lobotomize them into non-hostile figures, then you have to do the same for him.

Oh, and why are you fine with killing the souls of the Primordials for War Crimes, and not the Primordials themselves for War Crimes(remember, no one knew of the Neverborn yet, thus that can't really be part of one's decision)?

Finally, regarding your 'Greeks with Steam Engines', remember that at the time metalworking was of such low quality that they were unable to make a steam engine that could supply enough power to actually do tasks. Minor point, I know, and it's quite possible you know this as well, but there was just a thread talking about this over on the WW forums, and it was an interesting clarification there.

That said, your point about the low tech ideal being unworkable, I largely agree with. There's a good series about that, the Dies the Fire Series. Well, up to book 3 at least: never went past that, though I know a bit of the plot. Does a good job turning the idea on it's head, though.

[Exthalion]

I like how TED keeps being put apart. Yes, he's a bastard, but if you are really excusing the other primordials because you can lobotomize them into non-hostile figures, then you have to do the same for him.

Oh, and why are you fine with killing the souls of the Primordials for War Crimes, and not the Primordials themselves for War Crimes(remember, no one knew of the Neverborn yet, thus that can't really be part of one's decision)?

Finally, regarding your 'Greeks with Steam Engines', remember that at the time metalworking was of such low quality that they were unable to make a steam engine that could supply enough power to actually do tasks. Minor point, I know, and it's quite possible you know this as well, but there was just a thread talking about this over on the WW forums, and it was an interesting clarification there.

That said, your point about the low tech ideal being unworkable, I largely agree with. There's a good series about that, the Dies the Fire Series. Well, up to book 3 at least: never went past that, though I know a bit of the plot. Does a good job turning the idea on it's head, though.

I am aware. The point I was trying to make is that technology isn't easy to carve up into neat periods. I also edited that out for other reasons as you can see above.

Do you happen to have that link, I would be interested in reading or joining the discussion.

[Tavar]

Here it is, though it's mostly dead at this point.

[Xefas]

To zoom out a little from a moral discussion, and give my opinion on the plight of the Yozi as it serves as a part of Exalted as a setting for a game...

In the current situation, of the Yozi being purposefully eternally imprisoned in a hell dimension where they will know suffering unending, I think it works fine as a setting piece if that is what the game is to be about.

If Exalted was meant to be a game about choosing sides between the despicable humans who remorselessly committed the ultimate atrocity it is conceivably possible to commit, and then go about their lives as if that's okay, and the unrelatable alien creatures who suffered this atrocity but are also hellbent on genocide against most living things, regardless of their guilt or innocence - then that would be fine.

But I don't think that's what Exalted should be about. I think Exalted should be greek comedy/tragedy by way of wushu and animism, with a dab of the more positive shounen fighting tropes, and hints of transhumanism if you poke at it long enough, from a very human, very subjective perspective.

And, at least for me, that makes the Yozi situation not fine as a piece of the setting. If the Yozi are at all a part of a game that I'm in, I feel like an absolute monster, as a player, for not helping them, regardless of what my character knows or doesn't know. You can talk about metagaming all you want, but I, as a player, can't help but feel bad if I've already pulled my suspension of disbelief back far enough to become emotionally invested in the game and the setting. I can't imagine a more heroic thing, a more worthy thing, for any character other than the worst kind of person, than to end the suffering of the Yozi in any way they can.

And, in that way, the Yozi eclipse the rest of the setting. For me. Not even touching on the whole "they're the biggest threat so they invalidate all stories about threats" currently making the rounds in the Vitriolic Echo Chamber of Sychophantic Inanity that is... parts of the White Wolf Exalted Forum (I'm currently keeping my fingers crossed in the hopes that meschlum makes a Fair Folk baffmodad by that name), I would say that they're the biggest tragedy, and eclipse all other tragedies if introduced into a story. For me.

So, while I have little-to-no hopes for the 3E Exalted system, I at least have this hope for the setting: Maybe we'll never hear about the specifics of the Primordial War. Maybe we'll never know who did what and why and who is at fault and what exactly the nature of the titans are and what their torment is and what the First Age Exalted were like, except perhaps through extremely and explicitly biased accounts that can't be relied on from a meta perspective at all.

There is a Sun. And there are Yozi. And there are Exalted. They exist. Don't worry about it. Now go tell your story about the jealous river god and the fan-wielding wire-fu maidens, and how your kung fu was so beautiful that it taught the forest the meaning of friendship, and then you accidentally got drunk on sake during the after-party and knocked up your brother's wife. And by the merciful hamsters-that-be may we never read the words "Surrender Oaths" or "castrate" in any henceforth published Exalted work.

Just my musing of the day.

[golentan]

I'm actually not in favor of soul-ectomy, I just think that if you decide to do it it's less horrifying if you wind up with a fully functional and sane-as-possible being at the end rather than a petulant, hate filled, agonized cripple.

Also, I freely admit to being biased against Ebby, and am aware of the hypocrisy that my loathing for him carries.

[Drascin]

And, at least for me, that makes the Yozi situation not fine as a piece of the setting. If the Yozi are at all a part of a game that I'm in, I feel like an absolute monster, as a player, for not helping them, regardless of what my character knows or doesn't know. You can talk about metagaming all you want, but I, as a player, can't help but feel bad if I've already pulled my suspension of disbelief back far enough to become emotionally invested in the game and the setting. I can't imagine a more heroic thing, a more worthy thing, for any character other than the worst kind of person, than to end the suffering of the Yozi in any way they can.

And, in that way, the Yozi eclipse the rest of the setting. For me. Not even touching on the whole "they're the biggest threat so they invalidate all stories about threats" currently making the rounds in the Vitriolic Echo Chamber of Sychophantic Inanity that is... parts of the White Wolf Exalted Forum (I'm currently keeping my fingers crossed in the hopes that meschlum makes a Fair Folk baffmodad by that name), I would say that they're the biggest tragedy, and eclipse all other tragedies if introduced into a story. For me.

I guess that's where we disagree. I can understand finding a great tragedy makes one unable to care about other stuff perfectly well - but I can't quite understand finding the Yozi to be the greatest tragedy in a setting where actual innocent people sufer every day.

The Yozi are, basically, the mad scientist from movies who creates robots, gives them sentience and hopes and dreams instead of just making nonsentient tools, and then proceeds to treat the robots as having absolutely no worth or value, just as stupid tools to be destroyed and built to his whim. So in the end, the robots turn on him and kill him horribly. I must say, while watching such movies, my sympathy for such a person is nil, and definitely wouldn't term such a death as "a great tragedy".

[Kobold-Bard]

...

If they cannot be held accountable for their actions, then there's a strong argument that it doesn't matter what you do to them.

Apply that statement to people instead of Yozi, and that's a really awful thing you just said. Won't go any further to avoid a rule breach, but I'm surprised.

Also, one thing: Theion was the Holy Tyrant, seizing by force his place from another. So, he set the precedent.

...

Oh really? Where is Theion's rise to power mentioned, I'm intrigued.

[golentan]

Oh really? Where is Theion's rise to power mentioned, I'm intrigued.

Tales of Zen Mu, I think. Ink monkeys did a whole bunch of stuff set before creation, when the Primordials first came into being and were sorting out their relationships with each other. Mardukth was king initially, and then Theion took over with the help of his most loyal subjects. My favorite part of the whole thing was when they were looking for a place to build creation. They'd been wandering the wyld for millions of years, and Autochthon finally sat down and started building a bridge...

[Xefas]

I guess that's where we disagree. I can understand finding a great tragedy makes one unable to care about other stuff perfectly well - but I can't quite understand finding the Yozi to be the greatest tragedy in a setting where actual innocent people sufer every day.

The Yozi are, basically, the mad scientist from movies who creates robots, gives them sentience and hopes and dreams instead of just making nonsentient tools, and then proceeds to treat the robots as having absolutely no worth or value, just as stupid tools to be destroyed and built to his whim. So in the end, the robots turn on him and kill him horribly. I must say, while watching such movies, my sympathy for such a person is nil, and definitely wouldn't term such a death as "a great tragedy".

If the Exalted had just killed the Yozi - killed them in the way that humans know death, then perhaps it would be a gray area. There would be leeway for me to see things from different perspectives, and understand that war is bad and death is bad and poetic justice is a thing.

But they didn't kill them. They inflicted hell on them. No matter how many kilovillainies of evil you commit, infinite punishment is infinitely too great a punishment. At that point, it's not about justice, it's just inflicting sadistic harm. How much sadistic harm? Infinite sadistic harm. It doesn't matter how bad you think the Primordials were, or how many terrible things the setting says they did. They inflicted infinitely less sadistic harm than the Exalted, because the Exalted inflicted infinite sadistic harm on them.

The Yozi will suffer forever. I can't comprehend what that's like. You can't comprehend what that's like. None of the Exalted can comprehend what that's like. The Yozi, who are experiencing it, probably have difficulty comprehending what that's like, but they're probably closer by dint of being immortal.

What exactly did they do to outweigh that? Murder? Those peoples' lives were shortened, and it was tragic, but finite. Torture? By definition, the pain inflicted on them is less than the pain inflicted on the Yozi, by being finite in scope.

If the Yozi were imprisoned for, I dunno, A Billion Years, that would be one thing. Maybe if they caused enough harm, you could justify that retribution. But a billion years is a tiny miniscule spec in the eternity that they will suffer. A billion times a billion years is a tiny miniscule spec in the eternity that they will suffer. 10x10^{1,000,000,000,000} years could pass, and it would still be a tiny, imperceptibly small moment in the eternity that they will suffer.

If the entire duration of your life were brought up against this infinitesimal fraction of their punishment, if all the lives of all the people that they hurt were brought up against this infinitesimal fraction of their punishment, it would be so tiny as to go entirely unnoticed. And this fraction is nothing compared to the full duration of their pain.

Do you really not understand why that's bad? If not, then I don't think there's really anything left to say.

[Doran]

At worst? Malfeas probably sentences them all to 10,000 years of nightmarish agony and then they all die.

It's terrible and tragic and something that could ideally be avoided (you'll have to talk to Gensh about that), but it's the worst case scenario, and still literally infinitely more merciful than what humanity would do to them.

Maybe Karjack will man up and Creation-Slaying Oblivion Kick as he sees the gates of Hell swing forth.

Doesn't Ebbie have a charm specifically for infinite suffering? And Autocthon bound up all the souls of the Nameless ones into soul steel? Just pointing out that the Primordials can and do cause infinite suffering.

[Kobold-Bard]

Tales of Zen Mu ...

I've actually read that, I'd forgotten the details though. Thanks.

[The_Snark]

If the Exalted had just killed the Yozi - killed them in the way that humans know death, then perhaps it would be a gray area. There would be leeway for me to see things from different perspectives, and understand that war is bad and death is bad and poetic justice is a thing.

But they didn't kill them. They inflicted hell on them. No matter how many kilovillainies of evil you commit, infinite punishment is infinitely too great a punishment. At that point, it's not about justice, it's just inflicting sadistic harm.

While I agree that infinite suffering is not OK, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the Yozi are trapped in a state of constant pain? I mean, in a sense they are, but I always had the impression that it was more a result of their mental state than any kind of Endless Torture Device the Exalted came up with. Malfeas tortures himself; he grinds his layers to dust because he can't stand the sight of his debased body, his pain a physical manifestation of self-loathing and frustration. Cecelyne languishes in an endless wasteland of her own despair, bitter because the laws she cherished proved empty in the face of brute force—this is a world where might makes right, and she resents it. She Who Lives In Her Name is trapped between her need to support her hierarchy and her King, and the rational awareness that both hierarchy and King are now fundamentally broken. Kimbery is a hateful acid sea because Kimbery is the kind of person who enjoys nursing a grudge. And so on.

Which isn't to say that it's all their own fault and they deserve it, but I think it does change things somewhat. They're not victims of endless sadistic torture who need to be freed, they're "merely" horribly traumatized, which makes them pitiable but also very dangerous. Their problems are largely of their own making; they're still the godlike absolute rulers of a vast realm, and if they could reconcile themselves to it they could be perfectly content with Hell.

That they can't do so on their own is unfortunate, and I think it's perfectly understandable to want to help, but it doesn't eclipse all other problems in the setting for me.

(Incidentally, why the Yozis and not the Neverborn? They're in many ways worse off: shattered, barely self-aware, trapped in endless feverish nightmares and wanting nothing except to make it stop. The Yozis, when they can bring themselves to contemplate their siblings' fate, feel pity and horror. It's hard to say that the Neverborn's condition is anyone's fault—the Exalted didn't know that killing a Primordial would do that, and nobody knows how to fix it except by destroying the world, which people are understandably reluctant to do—but it is there, waiting to be fixed.)

If the Yozi were imprisoned for, I dunno, A Billion Years, that would be one thing. Maybe if they caused enough harm, you could justify that retribution. But a billion years is a tiny miniscule spec in the eternity that they will suffer. A billion times a billion years is a tiny miniscule spec in the eternity that they will suffer. 10x10^{1,000,000,000,000} years could pass, and it would still be a tiny, imperceptibly small moment in the eternity that they will suffer.

If the entire duration of your life were brought up against this infinitesimal fraction of their punishment, if all the lives of all the people that they hurt were brought up against this infinitesimal fraction of their punishment, it would be so tiny as to go entirely unnoticed. And this fraction is nothing compared to the full duration of their pain.

I don't know that this argument holds water. If you're assuming the Yozis will live and suffer for an infinite span of time, then it follows that they have the chance to inflict pain and suffering on an infinite number of people.

[Exthalion]

Let us not forget that the Yozi compound their moral damnation with their reckless, careless, and wanton murder of the First Circles. It is quite likely they have killed more demons then they ever killed humans. As many of these beings are of human level of consciousness this makes for a rather impressive list of moral sins.

On the subject of the let the Yozis out arguments: Letting them out will make all of nothing better. If they were released they would proceed to exert as much retribution as they were able to levy upon all humans. Most of whom have all of zero understanding of or responsibility for the state the imprisonment. Meaning that it will not be a balancing of the scales, it will be another eminently wrong action by the Titans against humanity.

The Exalted had at least some justification. The process of Leath wipes a way a persons memories and according to many theories of persons is the same as death. This means that every human killed by the Yozis was an act of infinite transgression. Even they as the makers of humans did not have the right to ever kill a human because they were destroying an irreplaceable thing that at least one person treasured beyond any notion of price. (Ignoring outliers like the suicidal.) Thus every act of murder was a crime for which no punishment could be sufficient.

While it does not follow that the Yozi should have the Hell Xefas seems to think was inflicted on them. It does follow that restraining them from doing any further harm to humans is not immoral. If the Exalted did not perceive themselves as having any choices beyond imprisonment and murder then Hell was an act of spectacular mercy on their part. It let the Yozi still plot against them and possibly escape. It let the Yozi work up new ways to hurt people. But it did not destroy them and so did not make the Exalted host party to the same level of guilt. (The Neverborn were killed during a war and most societies make a distinction between murder and killing the enemy.)

[Andreaz]

I actually don't think "the Yozi get free" is that bad of an outcome.

Hmm

Why?

Because, well, they are going to be opposed by, for one thing, the Ebon Dragon, who, though he is very, very weak combat wise, could sell a guy his own skin.

That's not useful at all. The entirety of what he does is screwing everyone ever, always. If he has his way, he becomes God as the christians understand it, and he won't do Charity.

The Raksha would probably attack at a noticed moment of weakness... and would meet Adorjan. It would be fun to watch, from a very, very large distance away.

Yeah...no. Adorjan doesn't pick targets like that, nor can you control that.

And who would the Yozi even be going after? They would go against the enemies that they actually have a vendetta against first. Namely, Exalts. They probably wouldn't end up specifically tormenting humans, because they still don't matter.

That's pretty much WHY they will torment humans. Their mere presence changes the world. With every metaphorical breath, She who Lives in Her Name drains the will from those near her. Every second near Isidoros is a second where you will be crushed under real or physical pressure. Your best destiny near Metagaos is becoming an ever-hungry cannibalistic freak.
And that's without even throwing their weight around. The primordials are a threat merely by existing.

And they would probably end up attacking our good friends the Neverborn, because if Auto-kun freaked 'em out...

That's only going to make things worse.

Actually, a question I just thought of- who designed Lethe? And what would you have to do to get them to tweak it to allow a Primordial Soul Architecture to be properly recycled?

I believe Auto did, as he created the soul system for humans.


Getting rid of the primordials was easily the best thing that ever happened to humanity.

[Turalisj]

Lethe isn't a place. It isn't a thing. Lethe is a concept, an idea. There is no physical object that could be called Lethe, no more than there could for thoughts.

[Amechra]

Aw, but I want to watch Creation crumble and get destroyed. It's a generally crappy place anyway.

And I just realized that there would probably be some Raksha who would try to sneak Adorjan earplugs. Because that is how they are.

But yeah, the one reason I asked who made Lethe was so that Creation could get a proper recycling mechanism for Primordials. So we wouldn't have the Neverborn.

And, as has been mentioned before, the fact that the Yozi are torturing themselves is bad. Malfeas is Rulership, and is crippled and useless. Cecylene is Law, and she now is fulled of hypocrisy. Swillin' is Hierarchy, whose lost the whole point of her hierarchy in the first place. Adrian was one of the greatest defenses creation had, and is now murderbuddha.

Right there is pretty much one of the problems with the setting.

But, as Xefas said, I don't think "demons being tormented for all of eternity, with it not really mattering why they are there in the first place" does not really fit in too well with "I can punch you so hard you recover from diseases and such. Or I could just punch you into a duck."

I think the real villains here are the Raksha. Because without those jerks coming to invade like every freakin' day (for a given value of "invade"), the Primordials probably wouldn't have made Sol, or the Dragon Kings.

Humanity still probably would have cropped up, but other that Sachaveral and the Dragon's Shadow, none of the Primordials would have really cared, because they would be too busy playing Quakehack.

Because, seriously, get Auto on the whole "dude, we didn't pay the prayer bill for the month, now the games are going to shut down" problem (or is it more of a "bad case of the munchies"?)

By the way, do we know what the demon race descended from the Ebon Dragon is?

It is Humanity! They are the doucherace! It all makes perfect sense now.

[Andreaz]

By the way, do we know what the demon race descended from the Ebon Dragon is?

There's a bunch of demons for every primordial. Ebby has the stomach bottle bugs and Alveua, to name a pair.
On the whole human thing...they don't relate all that much, even creatively. Ebby's greatest contribution was free will and coming up with the Unconquered Sun.

[Kobold-Bard]

Lethe isn't a place. It isn't a thing. Lethe is a concept, an idea. There is no physical object that could be called Lethe, no more than there could for thoughts.

There is however a 1st Circle Necromancy spell that lets you poke a pinprick hole in reality and do somehing with it (possibly the one to banish Ghosts), I think it describes Lethe as a sort of stream of silver light, but I could be making that up. So Lethe does actually exist because magic can let people reach it.

[Tavar]

Apply that statement to people instead of Yozi, and that's a really awful thing you just said. Won't go any further to avoid a rule breach.

Notice the part where I said that I missphrased that, somewhat horribly.

More along the lines of what I meant was that if they are not in control of their actions, and that this is a permanent state, then logic would lead one to believe that they need to be restrained. The fact that the methods used to restrain them are in some ways horrible doesn't change that fact.

Furthermore, if they are not Moral beings, then how can one state that they are more moral than others?

Finally, once again, nothing in the setting would lead one to believe that altering Souls can alter Primordials to become sane. And, this also is troublesome because this seems to mirror something humanity itself has done: we have done lobotomies to 'cure' prisoners or political dissidents, and apparently others as well. Was it right?