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2012-10-21, 08:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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- In the Final Frontier
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
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2012-10-21, 08:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
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- North
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Treasured Quotes
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2012-10-21, 08:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
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- France
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Hey guys!
Very minor personal problem here, but I'd appreciate your input.
SpoilerRemember the community I mentioned in my least interesting rants? The one that started out completely SJ-unrelated but that has been since overrun by aggressive SJ people? Well, I'm finally leaving it! Good news for you, no more whining from me! (Yes, it's that comm where one can claim demisexuals are heterosexuals trying to look special and NOT fear any reprimand from mods, and you must be THAT oppressed to give your opinion. I'm pretty sure they don't like allies either.)
Someone mentioned in a post what kind of language wasn't tolerated (aka ableism, racism, religious, gender-based or sexuality-based slurs; no more precision than brief mention of misogyny) in response to a complaint. I myself raised an objection that I thought was formulated in such a way I thought nobody could deduce I was racist/misogynist/etc. Well, I received answers that oscillate between nasty snark and mistrustful side-eyeing, and that was the last straw.
Still, I need to know if I did say something bad without noticing it. You know better than I do if I'm implying offensive stuff without meaning it. I would greatly appreciate your advice.
Here is my post in question:
Spoiler"Now, I have an objection to make:
the rules do not state that slurs directed toward certain populations are accepted. I've certainly seen misandrist and anti-white slurs being thrown about with no bad repercussion for those who typed them, often with the defense that there is no such thing as misandry or anti-white racism.
I think that should be clarified that gender-based slurs are okay if they are against cismen, and racial slurs okay if they are against whites. The way things are formulated right now, it sounds like you can't insult someone at all for having a gender or a race they had never chosen to have and can't change."
And some of the answers I got, paraphrased:
Spoiler- Are you for real? You're hilarious!
- Oh you're right, that should soo be fixed... just kidding, there's no such thing as anti-white racism. I can't believe there are people who would seriously be thinking that.
- [words that are censored by this forum's filter] aren't slurs, just language I wouldn't use everywhere.
- And what would be those mythical "misandrist slurs" you're speaking of?
@Succubus: nice idea! I needed to go back to writing!
Alas, at first glance, that prompt isn't giving me any idea. Hope I can find a creative spin on it in time. Plus, I don't think I'd be able to write down 10k words from that, it would be more like a couple-pages short story. Oh well, I'll try.Originally Posted by on Dwarf Fortress succession gamesOriginally Posted by Dwarf Fortress 0.40.01 bugs
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2012-10-21, 08:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
@Musashi; I don't think Western society has institutionalized oppression towards men or white people on the same level as towards women / people of colour; HOWEVER, using insults targeting any group basically makes you an ass. Using slurs against anyone because of a group they belong to is totally NOT okay in my eyes. Yeah, sure, calling someone a "breeder" might not have the same oppression behind it as the f-word does, but it is still meant to hurt someone and other them by reducing them to an aspect of their identity. (Not to mention that it's just erasing the fact that for example a bi person can be in a 'straight' relationship.)
SpoilerI think a lot of confusion also comes from the fact that in SJ context misogyny and such talks about oppression on an institutionalized level while dictionary definitions and how most people know it it just means hatred? Like, a person can be very hateful against say straight people, but that doesn't make institutionalized oppression of straight people (heterophobia) a thing?
Also, I wouldn't call your previous comments about this place whining. :<
Okay, that came out a lot more disjointed cause I kept adding stuff. tl dr; people were being asses.Last edited by Astrella; 2012-10-21 at 08:58 AM.
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2012-10-21, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2011
- Location
- France
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
@Astrella:
SpoilerYeah, my suggestion was mostly made so that they would avoid, once and for all, the monthly to bi-monthly flamewars started by anyone who dares mention dictionary definitions, or misandry, or why is it okay to insult a privileged group for a characteristic they have as much control over as the minority does. I mean, it's their comm, and I don't agree with all their unspoken rules, but they have a right to determine these rules, and it would greatly benefit them to point out what's allowed, what's not, and what flat-out doesn't exist in their eyes. This way, they can actually reply "please reread the rules again" (they always do that but it's not like it ever helped) without having to expect the others to read their mind.
It's not even advertised anywhere that the comm is LGBT-friendly or big on SJ. It's about roleplay rants and advice, and the rules look like what you'd find anywhere else. They're doing everybody a disservice here, and I don't think they realize that.
SpoilerOr maybe some of them like the confrontation, knowing they won't lose, having the mods on their side. Then again, there's always at least one person who does that in every large gathering, no exception as long as people are involved.
Beside that, yeah, I agree with that. Insulting me for being white is not as serious as insulting someone else for being non-white, I'm okay with that; I just see the two as occurrences of racism (that don't have the same magnitude or degree of institutionalization, of course, but still racism). When there is no provocation from the privileged side, there should be no global acceptance of any verbal aggression. Hey, even just a "yeah, we'd appreciate it if you could stay polite" or "if you need to call out X on something, try to focus on something they have an actual influence on" would please me.
But again, their private comm, their rules, no matter how ambiguously worded or controversial they are. If they feel safer this way, great for them; I don't, I have other places for that. Like this one. It's cool. You all are cool.
Thanks for your reply. I'm big on self-questioning and improvement, but it's often difficult to gauge how I'm doing.Originally Posted by on Dwarf Fortress succession gamesOriginally Posted by Dwarf Fortress 0.40.01 bugs
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2012-10-21, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2011
Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
The Tiresias Machine? A round robin could be fun, like Gunnar suggested. I definitely don't have time to write anything long.
... I came to appreciate that mountains make poor receptacles for dreams.
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2012-10-21, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2005
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- GMT
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Not to mention that it provides ammunition for the crowd that wants to keep denying same-sex couples the right to adopt. Frequent or high-profile anti-straight comments undermine the idea that yes, a gay couple can provide a loving, supportive environment for a child, even when the child is not gay itself.
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
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2012-10-21, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
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- Gothenburg, Sweden
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Can this machine change someone back and forth? Can Helio check in once a month? And how does it make people sterile? Because we can do some pretty amazing things already.
Edit: Taffimai, no only adopt. What about all lesbian couples who have kids? Are they traitors to the LGBTA cause now?Last edited by Asta Kask; 2012-10-21 at 10:03 AM.
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Oooh, and that's a bad miss.
“Don't exercise your freedom of speech until you have exercised your freedom of thought.”
― Tim Fargo
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2012-10-21, 10:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2012
- Location
- Germany
Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Here, have late *welcome hugs* from me.
Hey, that sounds like fun. I already have an idea for a story. Now I just have to finish that stupid term paper I'm writing. Then I'm allowed to write something else again.
ION: I did some experiment with clothing, because I hoped that it would help me to get some clarity about my gender (I think I might be slightly gender fluid. Far weaker than Helio, just swinging between 'completly female', 'not so female' and 'agendered/androgyne'.). It didn't, but is was fun. I started with as female as possible, wearing my evening dress, then normal, feminine clothing, then (hopefully) androgynous clothing, and ended with clothes that belong to my brother/father. There are pictures in the You!-thread.
I now think about asking my brother if I can wear them more often, so I can find out if I feel comfortable in them.You can call me Juniper. Please use gender-neutral pronouns (ze/hir (preferred) or they/them) when referring to me.
"We all are vessels of our brokenness, we carry it inside us like water, careful not to spill. And what is wholeness if not brokenness encompassed in acceptance, the warmth of its power a shield against those who would hurt us?" - R. Lemberg, Geometries of Belonging
Stories Art
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2012-10-21, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Location
- Usaki City, Syona
- Gender
Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
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2012-10-21, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
I assume that restriction's in there (from a literary point of view) to stop random cis people from having a spin to try it out for a day. Even still, would you not rather have a female body even if it did come at the price of infertility?
I'm honestly not sure if I'd use it. I probably would, but the infertility side effect would give me serious pause, even with the option of freezing beforehand.Quotebox
Avatar by Rain Dragon
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2012-10-21, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Because everything isn't screwed over. Not everybody wants children. Assuming that this machine gives trans people something closer their ideal bodies (the use of the word gender slightly confuses me here), I would definitely consider it (I might have reservations unrelated to the infertility aspect of the machine).
But anyways, I think the emphasis on the bodies and physical appearance of trans people is rather harmful. Especially for those people who don't identify as male or female (or who identify as both).
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2012-10-21, 11:08 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Location
- Usaki City, Syona
- Gender
Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
Homebrew Signature | NEW Homebrew Collection
Thanks to all my avatar artists, especially to Paisley for my avatar of Vivian, cowardly cryophoenix.
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2012-10-21, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Yar. I think it sorta comes for a ciscentric view of trans people? Like, people want to understand it but the mental side of it is a lot harder to grasp so they reach for something more 'obvious', namely physical stuff?
I do agree with you though on that it is a pretty harmful thing.
Also, hi Nix! How've you been?
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2012-10-21, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2011
Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Ah, alright. The way you phrased it gave me the impression that you were making a blanket statement.
It's still a viewpoint which is somewhat ingrained in my mind as well, which I think is a part of why coming to terms with being trans was difficult for me.
And I'm very well, thanks! How are you?Last edited by Nix Nihila; 2012-10-21 at 11:15 AM.
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2012-10-21, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
I'd take it in a heartbeat. Not being able to have children is a significant cost, but I don't attach much weight to any hypothetical children being biologically mine, so adoption would be fine, if I even decided I wanted to have children. Also, pure, costless wish fulfillment doesn't make for much drama or a very interesting story, as much as it appeals to the wisher.
~LauraLast edited by Selpharia; 2012-10-21 at 11:13 AM.
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2012-10-21, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
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- UK
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
I didn't mean for this idea to upset anyone.
I'll open this one up to a vote - if I removed the fertility restriction, would it encourage more people to have a try at writing something? What Helio mentioned about "cis people taking their opposite gender for a spin for a day" could open up some rather intriguing possibilities, story wise.
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2012-10-21, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
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- Ashes...
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
"It is important to draw wisdom from many different places. If you take it from only one place, it becomes rigid and stale." --Iroh
LGBTAitP! If you want to talk, learn, or have some fun, stop by!
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2012-10-21, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
- Location
- Gothenburg, Sweden
- Gender
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2012-10-21, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Location
- Usaki City, Syona
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Sorry.
I would give pretty much anything to be able to be a mother. My self-insert persona character has about thirty, and I could probably name them from memory. It really, really upsets me when people discount it, I have several female friends who are like 'eww no kids no'. And it upsets me that even in a fantasy where Science has done massively good things for transpeople, I still couldn't do it.
I'd much rather science worked on a better transition than one that only takes thirty minutes.
Sorry if I seemed angry or annoyed at anyone in particular. The idea just hit some very, very sore spots for me.
Don't change it on my account. I'm very unlikely to write one anyway.Last edited by Lix Lorn; 2012-10-21 at 11:18 AM.
Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
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Thanks to all my avatar artists, especially to Paisley for my avatar of Vivian, cowardly cryophoenix.
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2012-10-21, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Yes, but the mere presence of the machine would have to change the social reaction somewhat. There's no physical discrepancies between trans and cis men/women to get hung up on, and no transitional phase. Everything fits in the nice little cis boxes that society expects. Although yes, there will still be ramifications, they would in many ways less than what trans people go through now, I think
This Minase Iori avatar is a masterwork by Qwernt
DS Friend Code for Pokemon Trades and such. 1549 7971 5718
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2012-10-21, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
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- Gothenburg, Sweden
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Well, there's still genderqueer. And I think there would still be plenty of 'ick' factor for trans people to overcome. Prejudices aren't logical.
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Oooh, and that's a bad miss.
“Don't exercise your freedom of speech until you have exercised your freedom of thought.”
― Tim Fargo
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2012-10-21, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
It's not even helpful for all trans* people transition wise even if you don't look at fertility. What about a trans woman who wants to keep her penis for example? Or would the machine make the changes the person wants / needs to be comfortable with themselves?
(Edit; I'm not throwing any blame at you, Succubus, just to make sure.)
Yeah...
Glad to hear you are well! I'm pretty okay myself. Managed to work up the courage to come out at my dorm (which went pretty well). For the rest just keeping myself busy with various things.Last edited by Astrella; 2012-10-21 at 11:26 AM.
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2012-10-21, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2011
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Not even. We can just make viable gametes from a sample of skin tissue. Though it might be preferable to save a sample from beforehand in case, for example, an originally male-bodied person wanted to produce Y-chromosome gametes after transition.
I'm sorry you had to put up with that crap as long as you did. I would have left in a minute.Jude P.
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2012-10-21, 11:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
I'm sorry if it sounded like I am discounting motherhood. For me, motherhood conjures up a constant fear of never being good enough, of being so terribly responsible for an absolutely helpless other life, and then for the development of another human being that I have no idea how people manage it without going mad from worry. I do kind of want it, but I feel like the worst thing I could do to a hypothetical child would be to inflict myself upon it as a mother, with all of my fears and insecurities and faults.
@Astrelia- I keep forgetting the vastness of the spectrum. Thanks for pointing that out
~LauraThis Minase Iori avatar is a masterwork by Qwernt
DS Friend Code for Pokemon Trades and such. 1549 7971 5718
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2012-10-21, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2005
- Location
- Australia
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Re: The Succubus' idea.
If we assume for a moment that the machine can only change a completely male body to a completely female body and vice versa (first generation of the machine which is still being improved, but can't yet handle intersexed people or partial transformations), there are still a few issues that arise.
What happens if a pregnant woman changes her sex to male with the machine?
Would the infertility be only for the sex you've changed into with the machine, or would you be infertile if you switched back?
How frequently could you use the machine?
Are there any side-effects?
If you remove the infertility side-effect, could you get yourself pregnant?
"My Hobby: Replacing your soap with gravy" by rtg0922, Doll and Clint "Rawhide" Eastwood by Sneak
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2012-10-21, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Location
- Usaki City, Syona
- Gender
Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
Homebrew Signature | NEW Homebrew Collection
Thanks to all my avatar artists, especially to Paisley for my avatar of Vivian, cowardly cryophoenix.
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2012-10-21, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
- Location
- Bottom of a well
Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
I sometimes feel the same way about parenthood. I sometimes feel like I'm talking at right angles to people when being a father comes up. I'd love to be a parent. There is no way I'm going my whole life without having kids. And at the same time, if I could have my tubes clipped tomorrow I'd do it. People give me grief that I don't want the kid to be mine biologically, and then suggest that I don't really want to be a parent or I'd do it the old fashioned way. And yeah, I'd like them to be mine biologically if I saw an ethical way to do it, but having my concerns dismissed or mocked just hurts on a topic that's so important to me.
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2012-10-21, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
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2012-10-21, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2005
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- Australia
- Gender
Re: LGBTAitp 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
I'm talking, no genetic anomalies that can get in the way. Anyone having such of an anomaly, is no less of a man or woman, but this hypothetical first generation machine couldn't handle it, nor could it change you to something outside of the same threshold. There's no division, just that the machine can't handle what it doesn't expect (can't have body parts from both sexes, can't be intersexed, and so on).
"My Hobby: Replacing your soap with gravy" by rtg0922, Doll and Clint "Rawhide" Eastwood by Sneak