Why are monks terrible?

[roguemetal]

Monks were sadly built to shine at early levels with nothing to compare once they reach 8+. I suppose they have some PrCs like Fist of the Forest that make them decent... as in Fighter decent. Of course to be effective at all you need to do some multiclassing. Psychic Warrior is usually first pick, with Serenity Paladin a close second.

[Grim Reader]

Ranger is an awful example. The archery tree, for instance - oh, here's a feat that encourages you to use full attacks...and then here's one that encourages you to use standard actions! Or the useless spells, or the useless companion, the hide-specific abilities that suddenly crop up in the late levels, the tardy Evasion, the uselessness of Favored Enemy...Ranger is a mess.

Rangers actually still a good example. In addition to the stuff thats been mentioned, they got a good amount of skill points, and a decent list of skills.

They also have a lot of ACFs that give things like Wild Shape, arcane caster Favored Enemy (good with power attack) and make them quite customizable. Finally there are several PrCs that can be dipped to make them relevant. Beast Master, MoMF, Primeval etc.

I cannot really think of any PrC that can add as much to a Monk.

[Aharon]

On rereading my post, I should have stated it differently. The skeleton of a build (!) I proposed doesn't make the monk powerful, but I think you will agree that it is more useful than a monk played as designed - unarmed fighting + MAD.

Of course, there are options that can do all this build does and more. I'm not saying it's as good as a caster or a swordsage or something. It does patch up a few of the monks weaknesses and I think one can enjoy playing it.

That said, some more detailed responses:

@gkathellar
Fighter 20 with improved evasion and SR? How do you achieve that?

@gnaeus/Flickerdart

You don't actually get Empty Body or Perfect Self by Monk 18.

True. I was a bit hasty in posting.
@Abilities
Ki Strike: Ki Focus transmits Ki Strike to the weapon.
Diamond soul: You are right for PvP, however, non-primary caster monsters often have spell-likes that have a lower CL than their HD.

The rest of your points, I fully agree on.

[toapat]

@gkathellar
Fighter 20 with improved evasion and SR? How do you achieve that?

Generic Warrior from UA

[TuggyNE]

It is also instructive to count how many of a Monk's class features can be duplicated, or even improved, with inexpensive magic items or feats.

AC Bonus (Ex)

Monk's Belt, 13000gp, Wis to AC and +1 bonus.

Flurry of Blows (Ex)

No direct replacement, but Snap Kick and Two Weapon Fighting are more generic versions that can achieve much the same result with same or lower penalties.

Bonus Feat

One of the few gems, Monk bonus feats don't need prerequisites. Essentially the only reason the class still has a place.

Evasion (Ex)

Ring of Evasion, 25000gp.

Fast Movement (Ex)

2000gp custom item (expeditious retreat) equals this until level 12.

Still Mind (Ex)

Again, a 2000gp custom item arguably improves on this: protection from evil gives outright immunity to many enchantments.

Ki Strike (Su)

Just get a weapon already.

Slow Fall (Ex)

Ring of feather falling, 2200gp, doesn't require a wall to fall next to and has no limit on distance.

Purity of Body (Ex)

Just eat the fort saves, or get your friendly party cleric to heal you, or something. Doesn't help with mummy rot, demon fever, devil chills, or various other supernatural diseases which are the only ones you really care about.

Or, of course, get a periapt of health, 7400gp, and be immune to those too.

Wholeness of Body (Su)

Just get one or more Healing Belts, 750gp. Easier, faster, more thorough, more flexible.

Improved Evasion (Ex)

Not easily replaceable except with levels in certain classes, but of somewhat dubious merit anyway.

Diamond Body (Su)

Woot, this includes supernatural and magical poisons. So does a periapt of proof against poison, if that's your thing.

Abundant Step (Su)

Anklets of translocation, 1400gp. Available sooner and more flexibly.

Diamond Soul (Ex)

If you actually care about SR, add it to your armor or as a magic item, 10000gp per point over 12. Expensive, and probably not worth it, just like this class feature.

Quivering Palm (Su)

1/week dodge-or-save-or-die is ... underpowered. There's no obvious replacement for this, although you could get a 1/day custom slay living for an impressive 81000gp.

Timeless Body (Ex)

Irrelevant for nearly any adventurer.

Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ex)

If you really want this, you could replace it for roughly 33000gp (custom continuous speak with animals, speak with plants, and tongues covers nearly everything).

Empty Body (Su)

Cloak of Etherealness, 55000gp. Assuming, of course, you have some reason for being on the Ethereal Plane.

Perfect Self

The funny thing is, you gain almost nothing from this, but lose quite a bit. Specifically, you might have Darkvision 60' (get a belt of dwarvenkind already, 14900gp), may not need to eat or sleep (ring of sustenance, 2500gp, does most of this), have DR 10/trivial* and are no longer subject to e.g. charm person. In exchange, you can now be dismissed or banished (where to? no one knows), you can't be raised or resurrected anymore, and you can longer benefit from e.g. enlarge person.

Edit: wow, I'd forgotten how truly awful this is. At least you don't lose resurrection, though.

*Specifically, many creatures at this level have DR/magic or even DR/epic, and can bypass your DR themselves automatically; most of the others have had magic weapons for the last 10+ levels, or simply ignore DR with spells.

[toapat]

In exchange, you can now be dismissed or banished (where to? no one knows), you can't be raised or resurrected anymore

the "Become an outsider" capstones have no value at all, ok, you gain a small bit of DR, at what benefits, they typically forget to give you any of the prerequisite outsider types.

[TypoNinja]

the "Become an outsider" capstones have no value at all, ok, you gain a small bit of DR, at what benefits, they typically forget to give you any of the prerequisite outsider types.

And really dr/magic at 20th level is really not all that useful. Is there any at level encounter that can't bypass that? (not including huge piles of mooks)

Although as a native outsider you aren't subject to banishment from the Prime Material Plane, it is your home plane.

[toapat]

And really dr/magic at 20th level is really not all that useful. Is there any at level encounter that can't bypass that? (not including huge piles of mooks)

Although as a native outsider you aren't subject to banishment from the Prime Material Plane, it is your home plane.

actually, monks dont become Outsider (Lawful, Native), they become Outsider (can be ressed). i went to check that out before i posted that.

[TypoNinja]

actually, monks dont become Outsider (Lawful, Native), they become Outsider (can be ressed). i went to check that out before i posted that.

Yer right, I was thinking of the 3.0 monk. The 3.5 capstone is actually weaker. God damn.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you want to understand where the Monk failed, look at this Monk Remix, with the standard Monk next to it for comparison. And the standard feats this references next to it for comparison as well.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122

[TuggyNE]

actually, monks dont become Outsider (Lawful, Native), they become Outsider (can be ressed). i went to check that out before i posted that.

Right, derp, let me go fix that.

[toapat]

Right, derp, let me go fix that.

you were correct in that you can banish them on their home plane though

[gkathellar]

It's pretty easy to see the Tolkien themed ranger taking shape.

Ah, yes, the Tolkein ranger, with its spells and dual wielding and animal companion, right?

Monks were sadly built to shine at early levels with nothing to compare once they reach 8+.

As has been pointed out, they don't shine at early levels, though. Monks suck all the way through.

Psychic Warrior is usually first pick, with Serenity Paladin a close second.

Both of which are really better on their own.

They also have a lot of ACFs that give things like Wild Shape, arcane caster Favored Enemy (good with power attack) and make them quite customizable.

Considering that the best way to make an effective ranger is to trade out as many of the class features of the ranger class as possible, can you actually claim they're an example of a functional class?

@gkathellar
Fighter 20 with improved evasion and SR? How do you achieve that?

Magic items.

[Amphetryon]

Ah, yes, the Tolkein ranger, with its spells and dual wielding and animal companion, right?

To be fair, Aragorn's abilities with herbal remedies, use of the palantir, and summoning of the Dead Men of Dunharrow, coupled with Tolkein's penchant for understatement, could well represent what D&D calls "magic," even if the translation across media is not exact.

[TuggyNE]

Magic items.

Mind expanding on which item gives Improved Evasion? For some reason I'm not remembering one right now.

[TypoNinja]

Ah, yes, the Tolkein ranger, with its spells and dual wielding and animal companion, right?

Lets see, self sufficient, outdoorsy type, tracking skills, animal empathy, uses a bow and a sword, light armor.

Nope, there's no way Aragorn is the character that's defined the Ranger Stereotype, just like pretty much everything else Tolkien wrote influencing practically every fantasy setting ever.

[Flickerdart]

Lets see, self sufficient, outdoorsy type, tracking skills, animal empathy, uses a bow and a sword, light armor.

Nope, there's no way Aragorn is the character that's defined the Ranger Stereotype, just like pretty much everything else Tolkien wrote influencing practically every fantasy setting ever.

Dual wields weapons, animal companions, travels a lot, casts magic spells...Yup, it's Aragorn all right.

[TheOOB]

The real problem with monks is they spend so much of their class trying to do something other characters do just fine already. You can do plenty of damage with a great sword, and protect yourself just fine with armor, having a whole bunch of inefficient ways to replicate those things means the monk is always playing catch up to the fighter.

It's the same reason the soul knife is garbage, their whole class is basically a cool magic weapon, which you could just buy.

[Gavinfoxx]

I always thought Gandalf was a level 5 or 6 Paladin..

[gkathellar]

Lets see, self sufficient, outdoorsy type, tracking skills, animal empathy, uses a bow and a sword, light armor.

Nope, there's no way Aragorn is the character that's defined the Ranger Stereotype, just like pretty much everything else Tolkien wrote influencing practically every fantasy setting ever.

Which ... doesn't really address why rangers have spells, dual wielding and an animal companion. None of which Aragorn has. Nor are these new inventions — the spells and companion have been around since 1E, and the dual wielding was a 2E innovation (popularly believed to be a hack to let Drizz't work in 2E).

So yeah, I'm not really clear on how Aragorn is supposed to be the archetypal figure that defines a class that barely resembled him back in 1E, and has resembled him less in each subsequent edition.

[TuggyNE]

Which ... doesn't really address why rangers have spells, dual wielding and an animal companion. None of which Aragorn has. Nor are these new inventions — the spells and companion have been around since 1E, and the dual wielding was a 2E innovation (popularly believed to be a hack to let Drizz't work in 2E).

So yeah, I'm not really clear on how Aragorn is supposed to be the archetypal figure that defines a class that barely resembled him back in 1E, and has resembled him less in each subsequent edition.

You could settle on "the Ranger class is Aragorn with a good few added features", which is actually reasonable for the most part given the extremely low-key magic and limited range of enemies in LotR. (It doesn't really explain dual wielding or animal companion, but those were obviously wedged in from other sources.)

[animewatcha]

For those who watched Kung Fu: The Legend Continues. Would you say that the monk class is 'meant to be' Kwai Chang Caine?

[dascarletm]

I always thought Gandalf was a level 5 or 6 Paladin..

He's more adequatly described as an Outsider.

[rockdeworld]

But, but, +4 to AC by 20th level! Who could say no to that?

Haha, it's funny because when I looked at the martial D&D classes for the first time, I thought: Weak! (After Star Wars, it seemed like they were). Then I learned that, no, it's just that D&D is low-power at low levels. Then I learned that, no, it really is weak.

[gkathellar]

For those who watched Kung Fu: The Legend Continues. Would you say that the monk class is 'meant to be' Kwai Chang Caine?

The monk is meant to be a ridiculous mishmash of different source material, but going by the selection of "monk special weapons," appears most of all to be a feudal Okinawan peasant.

[JellyPooga]

Why are monks so good on paper, but generally considered pretty bad in game, for anything other than a few level dip?

Edit: in 3.5

I've often found this to be quite the reverse. Monks, on paper, are terrible for all the reasons previously listed. However, every time I've played one or seen one played in a game, they've turned out (for one reason or another) to be pretty awesome.

In one game, I played a Half-Ogre Monk focused on grappling. Amongst other achievements, his highlights included wrestling a Bone Devil (or Osyluth to any Planeswalkers out there) into submission and crushing an eldritch tentacled monster from the Far Realms into a squishy foul-smelling paste. Sure, if he'd been a melee focused Cleric or super-raging Barbarian he might have done it more efficiently or whatever, but at the end of the day he was the parties primary melee character and did a pretty darn good job of it (though I'll admit the game didn't go above 8th level).

My advice is to ignore the bad press they receive and just go with it.

[Korivan]

Gestalt monk with something else and if good rolls, then you've got potential for something nice. Maybe not overpowered by far, but something useful and fun to play.

Mono monk with average to ok stats with only the players handbook, and you can get the beat down by a charging fighter. Who only needs about a quarter of the thought put into the build to achieve this.

My problems with monk are largley its a melee class with medium BAB (no class features like cleric/factotum/rouge to make this not an issue), and d8 HD. Now, I know the difference of d8 and d10 might not make much difference by lvl 20, but at low levels every little bit helps.

The fast movement will make you faster then haste, unless someone like a feral gray orc barbarian with the quickness trait is hasted, then youd might be surprised at being runned down.

[Gnaeus]

In one game, I played a Half-Ogre Monk focused on grappling. Amongst other achievements, his highlights included wrestling a Bone Devil (or Osyluth to any Planeswalkers out there) into submission and crushing an eldritch tentacled monster from the Far Realms into a squishy foul-smelling paste.

Yeah. Explain that. Str 28 (natural 18 +6 racial +2 items +2 level) or +9, +4 size +4 imp grapple +4 BAB from monk 6 = about +21. A bone devil is +19, or close to even. But you have a max of 78 hp (Con 18+2 racial and max hp for each of 6 HD) compared to its 95 hp. You can't beat its damage reduction, so not much damage per attack. Your fort save is about +10 (again with the max con) + any resistance items, so if it just keeps stinging you with its tail you are pretty likely to be losing grapple checks really darn soon. If you pin it, it just teleports away (into the air, where you will have difficulty chasing it).

I would expect an eldrich tentacled monster from the far realms to be tougher than the bone devil, but no stats so my opinion may not mean much.

[Flickerdart]

You don't need to be a super Barbarian to be better than a Monk at grappling. At 20th, a Fighter with Toughness for all his feats is better than a grapple-focused Monk at grappling, because his BAB is 20 and the Monk's BAB+Improved Grapple is only 19.

[Gnaeus]

You don't need to be a super Barbarian to be better than a Monk at grappling. At 20th, a Fighter with Toughness for all his feats is better than a grapple-focused Monk at grappling, because his BAB is 20 and the Monk's BAB+Improved Grapple is only 19.

Not only that, but if someone else wanders by and decides to beat on you in grapple, the fighter has a lot more HP and better AC.