Explosive Runes Questions

[Chilingsworth]

Hey Playground!

So, I just gained my 5th level in wizard, and chose explosive runes as one of my new spells. I have some questions to help me make the best use of it.

1. Under what exact conditions is the spell triggered?

I know it can be triggered by: failed attempts to dispel or erase it, attempts to copy it with amanuensis, and reading it. It's the last I'm slightly confused by: Obviously, if I put it in a book or on a poster, the next person to read it (unless they check the thing for traps, find it, and disarm or otherwise detect and neutralize it) will trigger it and go boom... But what if I cast it on pieces of paper and drop them at my enemies' feet (presumably while invisible so I don't automatically get ganked)? Are they automatically assumed to read it? If so, when? On their turn, or when I dropped it?

2. Which metamagic feats can be applied to the spell, if any? I ask because its original effect is a rune and it targets an object, rather than damage. That might make it ineligiable for metamagic that depend on either improving damage, or affecting creatures. On the other hand, when triggered it does cause damage and does affect creatures. Could I empower/maximize it? What about fell drain/fell animate it (for lots of fun placing fell animate explosive runes on wanted posters of the party... everywhere, making anyone that reads them to learn what we look like/because of interest in collecting our bounties blow up and turn into zombies, heh heh.) Could I do any of those things?

[Deophaun]

1. Under what exact conditions is the spell triggered?

This is going to be DM discretion. Some people think that "(close enough to read it)" defines what being "next to" the runes means. Others think "next to" the runes defines how close you have to be to read them.

And no, enemies are not presumed to automatically read anything. You will have to find some way of enticing them into doing so.

2. Which metamagic feats can be applied to the spell, if any?

Empower and Maximize would work. There's no spell that says "Effect: damage." If that was a requirement, then those metamagics would never ever work. Fell Animate works. Twin Spell works. Split Ray doesn't work because it's not a ray. Widen would not work because it's not an area.

[Chilingsworth]

This is going to be DM discretion. Some people think that "(close enough to read it)" defines what being "next to" the runes means. Others think "next to" the runes defines how close you have to be to read them.

And no, enemies are not presumed to automatically read anything. You will have to find some way of enticing them into doing so.

Empower and Maximize would work. There's no spell that says "Effect: damage." If that was a requirement, then those metamagics would never ever work. Fell Animate works. Twin Spell works. Split Ray doesn't work because it's not a ray. Widen would not work because it's not an area.

DM discretion? I thought so, same with having to entice my victims to read the things. Or, just triggering them remotely (via amanuensis or dispel magic wand )

Good to know about the feats, although the explosion it causes has an area (10-ft radius), couldn't widen apply to that?

I expect to have fun turning the government's own wanted posters into vehicles for minor zombie outbreaks.

[Deophaun]

Good to know about the feats, although the explosion it causes has an area (10-ft radius), couldn't widen apply to that?

Unfortunately not. The Widen spell is only going to apply to "a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped spell." As explosive runes doesn't have an area entry, it is none of those things. Basically, while the blast has an area, the spell itself doesn't.

[Chilingsworth]

Unfortunately not. The Widen spell is only going to apply to "a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped spell." As explosive runes doesn't have an area entry, it is none of those things. Basically, while the blast has an area, the spell itself doesn't.

Ok, so basically, the rationale I thought applied to damage-dependant spells (but didn't) does apply to widen.

WotC did some...interesting things when they wrote the rules, didn't they?

[bobthe6th]

Well its more ER is a weird spell... really, most of the time it isn't an issue.

[Chilingsworth]

Well its more ER is a weird spell... really, most of the time it isn't an issue.

Yeah, I suppose. Oh well. Still a handy spell, though.

['Able' Xanthis]

1. Under what exact conditions is the spell triggered?

It may be activated by the following conditions, in no particular order; Reading, Scholar's Touch, the coping spell, looking at it with intent to read, any attempt to read the runes, and a few other conditions. The wording is really vague, as if you take RAW they go off as soon as you are within arms reach of someone other than yourself, or someone who has your permission to read it, whiles you're reading it. It's really a rather odd spell that has conditional readings in the spell itself.

2. Which metamagic feats can be applied to the spell, if any?

Maximize, Empower, I think Energy sub, Enhance, consecrate, purify, and Nonleathal sub are all one's I know work.

Sculpt spell to give it an area to manipulate is fun but odd. If you Energy Sub you might want to get Transdimensional Spell for dem ghosts and such.

That's all I got for right now off the top of my head. Hope it helps, Chilling.

[elonin]

Explosive Runes is a strange spell in that it is supposed to protect information by blowing up the script instead of allowing it to be read. In any case it wasn't supposed to be used offensively, which is the use a lot of people seem to be putting it to.

Is there a good way to disable one of these without setting it off?

[Story]

It's a trap so anyone with trapfinding can use Search to find it and Disable Device to disable it.

As for intended use - I'm pretty sure it's not intended to destroy the information. It's intended to act as a trap (it even has a trap search DC). The primary purpose of the spell is to damage people, it's just that the creators weren't creative enough in delivery methods.

['Able' Xanthis]

Explosive Runes is a strange spell in that it is supposed to protect information by blowing up the script instead of allowing it to be read. In any case it wasn't supposed to be used offensively, which is the use a lot of people seem to be putting it to.

Is there a good way to disable one of these without setting it off?

Yeah, it's to be a rouge. Other than that... Boom. It's an excellent offensive spell, though it wasn't written to be, and I once had a character who hung strips of leather and bells in the forest around my tower. When you hear the boom you know you've got visitors, and not the good kind cause they know the secret way in that's specifically made to hedge out anyone not on a list that I keep in a Secret Chest, seventh level spell using circles as a base for the research.

[Chilingsworth]

It's a trap so anyone with trapfinding can use Search to find it and Disable Device to disable it.

As for intended use - I'm pretty sure it's not intended to destroy the information. It's intended to act as a trap (it even has a trap search DC). The primary purpose of the spell is to damage people, it's just that the creators weren't creative enough in delivery methods.

Well, the spell does explicitly say it deals damage to the object it was cast on when it goes off. My guess is that it's supposed to at least be able to destroy the information it was protecting, as well as harming the would be thief.

['Able' Xanthis]

Hey, Chilling, a really powerful combo is to have profession (Bookbinder). You can ER each individual page of before binding all together. Then you can Contingent Spell; Scholar's Touch it when you are about to die, it is worse than a Balor's Death Throes.

Damage for when the book goes BOOM!

100 pages= 600 d6 Force
Average damage (All 3's)= 1800 force
Basically you carry a Nuke with you and when you hit -9 and don't make the save the book lights up an area of 10 ft turning the average dirt road into a ten foot deep crater.

This is all for later, but I thought you'd like to know...

Max+Empowered= 5400 Force Damage.

[Slipperychicken]

"Close enough to read" may be sanely interpreted to mean "within 5ft". I suppose the intended use is as a cheap "Gotcha!" trap to encourage extreme paranoia.

['Able' Xanthis]

"Close enough to read" may be sanely interpreted to mean "within 5ft". I suppose the intended use is as a cheap "Gotcha!" trap to encourage extreme paranoia.

I usually go with you have to make eye contact with the runes, while within the same square, so yeah. I once had a scroll on a goblin as a joke gotcha thing. One of the players basically gathered the group around the thing and opened it. Nearly wiped them, only level three and two were casters. It wasn't the first time I face palmed with that group, but it stands out, guy was their rouge.

[Chilingsworth]

Hey, Chilling, a really powerful combo is to have profession (Bookbinder). You can ER each individual page of before binding all together. Then you can Contingent Spell; Scholar's Touch it when you are about to die, it is worse than a Balor's Death Throes.

Damage for when the book goes BOOM!

100 pages= 600 d6 Force
Average damage (All 3's)= 1800 force
Basically you carry a Nuke with you and when you hit -9 and don't make the save the book lights up an area of 10 ft turning the average dirt road into a ten foot deep crater.

This is all for later, but I thought you'd like to know...

Max+Empowered= 5400 Force Damage.

Yeah, I've heard of the book 'o runes. (Although, when I heard about it it was: make a book-nuke, then drop it near your target, move more than 10ft away, and cast amanuensis.) In any case, I can't use that because:

a. I don't have the feat space for contingent spell, and

b. I'm pretty sure it would work thusly: you attempt to magically read the book. The first rune triggers, destroying the book before any of the other runes are activated.

Oh, and c. I'm not interested in both having all involved spells banned and my head caved in with... well, every book my DM has on hand, actually.

[Story]

I usually go with you have to make eye contact with the runes, while within the same square, so yeah. I once had a scroll on a goblin as a joke gotcha thing. One of the players basically gathered the group around the thing and opened it. Nearly wiped them, only level three and two were casters. It wasn't the first time I face palmed with that group, but it stands out, guy was their rouge.

My idea is for a questgiver to cast Maximized Explosive Runes on their job offers. It's the Adventurer's Job Interview.

['Able' Xanthis]

Yeah, I've heard of the book 'o runes. (Although, when I heard about it it was: make a book-nuke, then drop it near your target, move more than 10ft away, and cast amanuensis.) In any case, I can't use that because:

a. I don't have the feat space for contingent spell

I was just telling you in case you didn't know, it's a great mind teeter for the paranoid caster.

b. I'm pretty sure it would work thusly: you attempt to magically read the book. The first rune triggers, destroying the book before any of the other runes are activated.

Not with Scholar's Touch, It reads the ENTIRE book all at once

Oh, and c. I'm not interested in both having all involved spells banned and my head caved in with... well, every book my DM has on hand, actually.

It's a suicide technique I made up, read the way it's goes off again Chilling, it would be legit.

Bold for the space.

[Chilingsworth]

Hmm, maybe. Even if it is legit, though, that would just make the chances of the involved spells being banned by my DM from "likely" to "all but certain." And I'd still end up in the ER from all the blunt trauma.

Cool idea, though.

Also, could that idea be made to create hand grenades?

Scholar's touch with a trigger something like: "read the book next time it comes in contact with anyone but me" Then chuck it at someone?

[TopCheese]

I always like the pre battle set up of...

Cleric (me) + Wizard casting explosive runes on a ton of paper.

Glueing said paper onto my full plate (force immunity)

Walking up to the BBEG/Other poor soul (or greater teleporting)

Wizard readies an action to set off the ER when I do.

???

Pick up the quest reward.

Note: This is allowed to work once before the enemies become immune to force damage...

[Deophaun]

Hey, Chilling, a really powerful combo is to have profession (Bookbinder). You can ER each individual page of before binding all together.

Or you could just ER a single page 100 times. Nothing stops you from putting multiple runes on a single object.

[bobthe6th]

but there is a gray area for setting off one rune triggering any others.

area dispel only hits one spell on each target. So you want one rune for each page or individual item and shoot a low CL area dispel magic at it.

like a wand of CL1 dispel magic?

[Guizonde]

aaaaand i've bookmarked the thread!

here's an idea. y'all know the strict and surly librarian archetype? factor in a life of bitterness, a wish for revenge, and a CE alignement

your books will be returned on time, or you'll be blasted out of time itself!

[Phelix-Mu]

I wonder if a DM should approach offensive text as a kind of gaze attack. Surely anyone that survives this kind of trap once is likely to not go around reading random stuff. If I squint or put on glasses with the wrong prescription, so I can't read but can otherwise operate normally, am I protected from the spell?

Poor wording in spells just compounds the issue of spells being the most exploitable abilities in the game.

[Chilingsworth]

aaaaand i've bookmarked the thread!

here's an idea. y'all know the strict and surly librarian archetype? factor in a life of bitterness, a wish for revenge, and a CE alignement

your books will be returned on time, or you'll be blasted out of time itself!

But... my character is of NE (heading for LE) alignment.

And, he's more likely to found libraries (and universities, and museums, and research labs) than work in a library.

Yeah, he's Evil mostly because of his absolute hatred of the church of Tyr, and because he's willing to fuel propserity and military might by means of devotion to an evil power and power it via undead.

[Deophaun]

area dispel only hits one spell on each target. So you want one rune for each page or individual item and shoot a low CL area dispel magic at it.

like a wand of CL1 dispel magic?

First, you can't lower the CL beyond the minimum to cast it. So it's at least a CL5. Second, why are you using a third level spell when a cantrip suffices (amanuensis)?

['Able' Xanthis]

but there is a gray area for setting off one rune triggering any others.

area dispel only hits one spell on each target. So you want one rune for each page or individual item and shoot a low CL area dispel magic at it.

like a wand of CL1 dispel magic?

Level 3 spell so it'd have to be a CL 3 at the least, and Scholar's Touch is the only spell that I know will activate them all at the same moment. Chilling the BookNade might work. Also for if you want the Cheese just start leaving the ER's on 1 ft blocks of Air, less than 10 pounds using a little known combo Prestidigitation and ER.

By Prestidigitation you color 1 ft area of air, let's say red okay. Then you target the 'red air' with ER and as a 1 ft squared molecule thick section of air isn't over the 10 pound mark, and since it is specifically only the 'Red Air' you aren't targeting a mass of atmosphere you now have ER that hang in the air, dismiss the coloring and you've got mook deterrent right there.

Air is in fact an object, I'd like to point out as it is not a Person nor Place it must then be a Thing and thus an Object as it has no Int or quantifiable stats. This is however pure Cheese.

[TuggyNE]

I wonder if a DM should approach offensive text as a kind of gaze attack. Surely anyone that survives this kind of trap once is likely to not go around reading random stuff. If I squint or put on glasses with the wrong prescription, so I can't read but can otherwise operate normally, am I protected from the spell?

That would be vastly better. When triggered, the runes make a single 15' gaze attack for listed force damage. (Or similar.)

[Story]

For what it's worth, Amenuensis looks like a valid target for Chain Spell. Just stick a single rune in on each piece of parchment (which is perfectly legal and in fact the intended use). Then detonate up to 20/23 of them with a single spell instantly.

[Chilingsworth]

Level 3 spell so it'd have to be a CL 3 at the least, and Scholar's Touch is the only spell that I know will activate them all at the same moment. Chilling the BookNade might work. Also for if you want the Cheese just start leaving the ER's on 1 ft blocks of Air, less than 10 pounds using a little known combo Prestidigitation and ER.

By Prestidigitation you color 1 ft area of air, let's say red okay. Then you target the 'red air' with ER and as a 1 ft squared molecule thick section of air isn't over the 10 pound mark, and since it is specifically only the 'Red Air' you aren't targeting a mass of atmosphere you now have ER that hang in the air, dismiss the coloring and you've got mook deterrent right there.

Air is in fact an object, I'd like to point out as it is not a Person nor Place it must then be a Thing and thus an Object as it has no Int or quantifiable stats. This is however pure Cheese.

Ha! That is cheesey. Clever, though I couldn't bring myself to use it.

As for the dispel magic, I think what bob was refering to was having explosive runes on multiple pieces of unbound paper. Each piece would then be a distinct object and would be subject to having a dispel attempt made against its single rune. This would be a way to get around the "amanuensis reads one rune at a time, triggers the first one, and destroys the rest of them without setting them off" problem without invoking "I need to be in touch range in order to do this since I can't craft a contingent spell" problem that scholar's thouch creates. And yeah, as was just said: a wand of dispel magic would be minimum caster level 5, not 1 or 3. Could still work, though.