OOTS #874 - The Discussion Thread

[hamishspence]

As a biochemistry student I wish it was that easy. Using that definition, coyotes, wolves, and domestic dogs are all the same species. *weeps*

I think for D&D purposes, since everything seems to be capable of hybridizing, up to and including fire elementals, our main scientific definition for species doesn't work. So we're stuck with morphology.

It's not like wolves and domestic dogs split from each other that long ago.

Coydogs and coywolves, I've read, tend to have decreased fertility without being infertile.

Probably the most different species I've read about in the real world that have produced fertile offspring are Bottlenose Dolphins and False Killer Whales, that sometimes produce fertile Wolphins.

They look about as different from each other as a man and a ogre, or maybe even troll.

[LTDave]

Enjoying the tide of new comics very much.

As am I! Keep it up! Good Job!

[Kish]

Yeah, after reviewing it I think you're right. He didn't immediately go into gaseous form after getting hit with the heal spell. It happened fast enough after the heal though seeing how it was one frame afterwards where it started, and the heal REALLY looked like it hurt him.

Heal cannot reduce an undead creature below 1 hit point.

[Rick_DW]

Another awesome comic. Durkon is pretty much my favorite OOTS character, because he behaves like we'd all like to in a table-top game. Lawful Good, Cleric, racially appropriate. And, in Rich's comic, a straight-man.

LG is the most difficult alignment to play, and a divine caster or paladin even more so. The kind of code this alignment/class combination needs to follow is difficult for many players to grasp. As a DM I've caused a lot of Falls for clerics and paladins to take too many liberties with their behaviour. Giant knows how to play LG cleric (Durkon) and paladin (Miko). Those are the two best characters in the OOTSverse to me.

On the other hand, I can't stand Belkar and wouldn't miss him if he died permanently and disappeared from the strip.

[hamishspence]

It's worth noting that The Giant cites Miko as one of the worst ways to play a paladin (No Cure for the Paladin Blues) and as someone prone to following the letter rather than the spirit of her alignment and class (War & XPs).

Hinjo and O-chul seem to typify "LG Paladin" better.

[Heksefatter]

Currently I feel as if I am in the neutral good afterlife. Daily updates to OotS.

[Emmit Svenson]

...there is also one actual Norse Myth that makes plants evil. Frigga...wanted to protect ... Balder, from all harm, so she ... got the promise from all things, great and small, to never harm him... except the Mistletoe Plant.

Not because Mistletoe is evil, though. She thought it was too young to make an oath. (In Anglicized versions, this is often rendered as, "too small and weak to hurt anyone").

[Clistenes]

It's not like wolves and domestic dogs split from each other that long ago.

Coydogs and coywolves, I've read, tend to have decreased fertility without being infertile.

Probably the most different species I've read about in the real world that have produced fertile offspring are Bottlenose Dolphins and False Killer Whales, that sometimes produce fertile Wolphins.

They look about as different from each other as a man and a ogre, or maybe even troll.

I think what make wolves, coyotes and jackals separate species is that, if you make a buch of coywolves and release them, they would breed, but after four generations their fertility would decrease until they are all sterile, so in nature coywolves would be absorved by wolf and/or coyote populations. So there is a breeding barrier of sorts between wolf and coyotes, even if they can exchange gene.

LG is the most difficult alignment to play, and a divine caster or paladin even more so. The kind of code this alignment/class combination needs to follow is difficult for many players to grasp. As a DM I've caused a lot of Falls for clerics and paladins to take too many liberties with their behaviour. Giant knows how to play LG cleric (Durkon) and paladin (Miko). Those are the two best characters in the OOTSverse to me.

It all depends on the DM. If you play a decent and honourable person who tries to do what is better for the majority, to not hurt anybody without need, and who won't harm others for his own benefit, it will be more than enough for many DMs.

I always assume that, when lives are on the stake, things like not stealing, lying, or cheating become much less relevant. If you think about it, killing is one of the worst crimes, worse than cheating, lying or stealing, and paladins do it all the time, the thing is, every time a paladin kills he's choosing a lesser evil.

Of course, the rules against cheating and lying have a value of their own: They make the paladins widely trusted, which make their work of protecting society way easier, so they should be willing to accept great sacrifices in order to avoid lying, but when innocent lives are at the stake, a paladin should be able to choose the lesser evil without falling (think of O'Chuul, how when tortured by Redcloak he denied to know anything about the Rifts, but when Redcloak was about to kill the hostages and destroy their souls, O'Chuul chose the lesser evil and lied without falling).

[Baphomet]

I like Malack, actually, and I hope a reasonable outcome would be both Malack and Durkon learning to accept their differences.

I also like the homosexual innuendo; the insinuation that Malack's vampirism is equivalent to homosexuality and that Durkon wants to turn Malack straight or vice versa.

Kudos to Rich for handling this confrontation in a tasteful and mature fashion; I think with any other set of characters this could be done in a much more immature way and still not strain believability, but both Durkon and Malack are intelligent gentlemen and demand better treatment.

That's an interesting interpretation. Obviously I can't speak for Rich, but I'm going to guess you're reading more into this than he intended. I read their confrontation as nothing more than tragically irreconcilable disparate viewpoints between people who would otherwise get along. It could be applied to any sort of issue that two people might disagree over.
Again, I can't speak for Rich, but given the stances he's had about sexual issues when they've come up in the past, I would be surprised if it turned out he was drawing any sort of analogy where someone trying to "cure" someone else of homosexuality was being cast in a sympathetic light, as Durkon would be here if your interpretation is correct.

[Bulldog Psion]

That's an interesting interpretation. Obviously I can't speak for Rich, but I'm going to guess you're reading more into this than he intended. I read their confrontation as nothing more than tragically irreconcilable disparate viewpoints between people who would otherwise get along. It could be applied to any sort of issue that two people might disagree over.
Again, I can't speak for Rich, but given the stances he's had about sexual issues when they've come up in the past, I would be surprised if it turned out he was drawing any sort of analogy where someone trying to "cure" someone else of homosexuality was being cast in a sympathetic light, as Durkon would be here if your interpretation is correct.

The idea that this has anything to do with homosexuality kind of comes out of left field to me, too. In the first place, I can't see it implied anywhere, unless every situation where there is a transition from one state to another has suddenly become a metaphor for homosexuality.

Secondly, I doubt Mr. Burlew would use vampirism as a metaphor for homosexuality.

Thirdly, does everything need to be a metaphor for some contemporary "issue", politicized, and etc.? Can't some things just be a story element, for Thor's sake?

[Coat]

I always assume that, when lives are on the stake, things like not stealing, lying, or cheating become much less relevant. If you think about it, killing is one of the worse crimes, worse than cheating, lying or stealing, and paladins do it all the time, the thing is, every time a paladin kills he's choosing a lesser evil.

I think that's pretty much how Roy thinks. He always sets out to do good. If he can do it within the letter of the law, he will. If he can't, he'll follow the spirit of the law as far as possible - but at the end of the day, he'd rather break the rules than accept a non-good outcome. And, I think, one of the reasons for this is because Roy is quite smart - he can extrapolate, and see the points where the rules just don't work.

It's not how Durkon thinks. Durkon will do all the good he can do within the rules, but he won't go beyond them. Because they're the Rules. Inside Durkon's head, where the Rules stop, the world ends. He can't see beyond them - but within the world he can understand, he does the best he can.

He's an admirable person. But he's not that smart. It's very nicely handled portrayal, and a nice balance to Roy.

[Lorsa]

Yay for quick comics! Can't wait for the next one!

[Kish]

I also like the homosexual innuendo; the insinuation that Malack's vampirism is equivalent to homosexuality and that Durkon wants to turn Malack straight or vice versa.

...

What.

The.

Hell.

[Shale]

My brain hurts.

[oppyu]

I also like the homosexual innuendo; the insinuation that Malack's vampirism is equivalent to homosexuality and that Durkon wants to turn Malack straight or vice versa.

Um... as much as I like reinterpreting works in ways that the author almost certainly did not intend, I'm not seeing the innuendo. Also, I would hope that nobody would compare homosexuality to vampirism.

EDIT: Actually, scratch that, reinterpreting past and future strips using Malack's vampirism as an allegory for homosexuality sounds like too much fun to ignore.

[Tragak]

The more general application of vampires spelling their names backwards is most often put forward by Terry Pratchett (there's certainly no evidence of it in earlier vampire works like Carmilla or Nosferatu). Not that it's a bad thing, mind.

"Strictly speaking," Carmilla was still one of three anagrams for her name, just that none of them were directly backwards.

you cant rez someone unwillingly.

or rather souls know the alignment and i think god (or class) of the person casting the spell.so you can trick them into accepting a rez.

Actually, just because an undead wouldn't want to become living doesn't mean that the person who died to create it wouldn't want to come back.

Um... as much as I like reinterpreting works in ways that the author almost certainly did not intend, I'm not seeing the innuendo. Also, I would hope that nobody would compare homosexuality to vampirism.

Maybe heterosexuality instead?

[Clovis]

But Belkar's head does?

Of course. Halfling tetherball! See: http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html

[Caesar]

I said under their own power. Growth doesn't really count, which is why I consider it to be incorrect to say plant's move towards the light.

But we're getting off topic. >_>;

... Also giant bladderworts need to be a trap.

Leaf heliotropism is in most cases caused by changes in turgor, and not by actual growth. After all, they can track the sun through the course of the day, and many species even fold up at sunset and unfold at sunrise.

Themoreyouknow.jpg

[hamishspence]

I think what make wolves, coyotes and jackals separate species is that, if you make a buch of coywolves and release them, they would breed, but after four generations their fertility would decrease until they are all sterile, so in nature coywolves would be absorved by wolf and/or coyote populations. So there is a breeding barrier of sorts between wolf and coyotes, even if they can exchange gene.

It's more overt between coyotes and dogs- with the aforementioned experiments you've mentioned.

By contrast, there's some evidence suggesting that the Red Wolf is basically a coywolf, many generations down the line- with it having coyote and gray wolf ancestry.

Golden jackals are a bit further removed from the wolf/dog/coyote grouping, and other species of jackal are further still- having a different number of chromosomes.

[Kaulguard]

Bloodsucking *Neutral*. Malack made every attempt at not engaging Durkon, has used no "Save or die" spells, and seems set on capturing, not killing Durkon. At this point, his strategy seems to be "Remove the opponent's ability to fight" wheras his opening gambit was "Remove the opponent's willingness to fight". He's been struggling with vampirism for years, and made a sustained effort to preserve his ethics. Turning him back into a living lizardthing would invalidate all that effort.

Boy, you guys will bend logic over backwards into knots to preserve a point of view, won't you?

[Kish]

I have this memory of someone, who was arguing that Tarquin was Lawful Neutral (before we found out about the entire scheme), suggesting that Malack was responsible for most of the evil in the Empire of Blood while friendly, smiles-like-Elan Tarquin just wasn't involved.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[dnzrx]

Question:

I noticed that did not consider for helping him.

I also know that to turn someone into a vampire, you need to drain their con. to zero.

Is it because has a poor con. score (between being an elf and a wizard)?

[attriel]

People keep speculating about Durkon going to the dwarflands as a vampire (posthumous, destruction) ...

But, wouldn't that require that (a) the OotS is willing to take a vampire cleric along with them, and (b) Durkon is willing to BE a vampire?

Seems more likely to me that he'd just want to be dead at that point. Meaning, just posthumous


Also, wasn't the "Destruction on his next return" the prophecy that the high priest had? or was it oracular?

Either way -- Hey, we came looking for Kraagor's gate. But we brought the Linear Guild chasing us, Tarquin and his happy crew b/c they're pissed we kill Malak, oh and Xykon ... not to mention the snarly thing trying to eat the universe AT the gate ...

yeah, the OotS is kindof a walking "death and destruction" magnet wherever they go :o

And if it was a priest-driven vision, then he brings destruction when he comes back to the dwarven lands and priest got the details wrong

Spoiler

Show

Actually, he got kicked out so he wouldn't return, saving them from his destructive return. But his destructive return with the hordes of evil at his back is a direct RESULT of being kicked out. So, yeah, priest got it all kinds of wrong :o

oracular prophecy was direct at "my beloved dwarven homeland", which could strictly speaking be considered "my home" ; eg "when do I get to go back to San Francisco where I grew up" rather than "Can I go back to the United States eventually" ; oracle is very detail-oriented, so "my beloved homeland" could be a very narrow def.

Go back, bring massive war, die defending the last gate, hero's welcome and all the trimmings as his body is returned to his home for burial.

[pjie2]

The more general application of vampires spelling their names backwards is most often put forward by Terry Pratchett (there's certainly no evidence of it in earlier vampire works like Carmilla or Nosferatu). Not that it's a bad thing, mind.

I sincerely hope that's a joke. I don't remember it appearing in Nosferatu, but it certainly did in Carmilla/Mircalla/Millarca.

[Tragak]

Question:

I noticed that did not consider for helping him.

I also know that to turn someone into a vampire, you need to drain their con. to zero.

Is it because has a poor con. score (between being an elf and a wizard)?

Or they still just don't know where V is.

[Kish]

Or they still just don't know where V is.

Yes, this.

[attriel]

Question:

I noticed that did not consider for helping him.

I also know that to turn someone into a vampire, you need to drain their con. to zero.

Is it because has a poor con. score (between being an elf and a wizard)?

does not know where is, after wigged out in the dining hall. However helpful might be, can't use if can't find

and yes, that was just fun repeatedly typing vaarsuvius :o

[dnzrx]

does not know where is, after wigged out in the dining hall. However helpful might be, can't use if can't find

and yes, that was just fun repeatedly typing vaarsuvius :o

hahahahahahahaha!

OK, that Order of the Stick head parade was actually VERY funny.

[Smolder]

If Durkon gets vamped, doesn't he lose his cleric abilities? The game rules don't call for it, but I'm unsure whether Thor would approve of it. Maybe he switches to Nergal?

A'ch, Nergal will eat yer soul!

[Emmit Svenson]

People keep speculating about Durkon going to the dwarflands as a vampire (posthumous, destruction) ...

But, wouldn't that require that (a) the OotS is willing to take a vampire cleric along with them, and (b) Durkon is willing to BE a vampire?
.

Second point first. Becoming undead generally seems to change the victim's morality enough that they don't want to destroy themselves. A very few exceptions are in the literature, and Durkon might be one of them. But I doubt it.

If Durkon gets vamped, there are three factions that might then want him.

1) The Order of the Stick. Becoming undead might not change Durkon's loyalties, other than making him Malack's slave. If Malack dies, or is willing to let Durkon adventure, he might well rejoin his friends in the Order, which would accept him in hopes of a) keeping the Snarl from destroying the world and b) finding a cure.

2) The Linear Guild. If Girard's gate goes kablooey, as perhaps we all expect, Tarquin and co. might join the race to the final gate for power, for fun, or for weird family reasons. In which case Malack would bring his new slave along.

3) Xykon. He doesn't trust Redcloak, and never has. He might prefer an undead cleric as a partner, if he can just get his hands on the cleric half of that spell...