What if Tier 1 and 2 had never existed?

[nyarlathotep]

And when everyone is useless... No one will be.

Bob the dinosaur tamer's time has come. Soon the entire earth will be under his saurian clad boot.

[Flickerdart]

Honestly, a system built from the ground up to use skill-based magic could actually be really freakin' cool, because a) they would have actually playtested the Truenamer and b) it would have given precedent for the other skills to be able to accomplish things.

[Octopusapult]

And when everyone is useless... No one will be.

In the land of the blind the man with one eye is king.

[Flickerdart]

In the land of the blind the man with one eye is king.

Or a dwarf among midgets.

[JoshuaZ]

I'd actually say it's bigger but caused more by trap concepts and feat equivalents than the class equivalents.

Hmm, that's an interesting point. Yeah, I can see how that would be the case.

[Octopusapult]

Or a dwarf among midgets.

I feel like we might have derailed the thread a little. But still, hilarious.

[Flickerdart]

I feel like we might have derailed the thread a little. But still, hilarious.

Not at all. Just imagine what the game would be like without any playable creatures larger than Small.

[Waker]

Not at all. Just imagine what the game would be like without any playable creatures larger than Small.

If everyone was Small, what would my radical group of "Gnee-High Gnation of Gnomes" be fighting against?

[Octopusapult]

If everyone was Small, what would my radical group of "Gnee-High Gnation of Gnomes" be fighting against?

Items on the top shelves?

[Flickerdart]

If everyone was Small, what would my radical group of "Gnee-High Gnation of Gnomes" be fighting against?

Bigger monsters would still be around.

[Pickford]

You do know there are quite a few ways for a wizard to cast cleric spells, right? I also know I've said this before, but I expect it to be ignored again. Wizards are smart enough to pull this off with almost no true foreknowledge. A level 20 wizard is smarter than pretty much anyone who has ever lived in eh real world.

A short list of SOME options for a wizard casting cleric spells:
Extra Spell
Domain Wizard
Arcane Disciple
Custom magic items
Buy a casting
Make a cleric friend
Leadership
And that's just what I know offhand

Strictly speaking Extra Spell is a feat and can only be taken when leveling up. Domain Wizard gives you those spells as arcane spells, not divine, same thing with Arcane Disciple you don't get divine spells, Arcane Spellcasters can't use magic items unless they're arcane based (amusingly), and buying casting/making a cleric friend/leadership aren't the wizard casting divine spells.

So none of the examples you provided give a Wizard access to the divine spells. The real world equivalency of ability scores is immaterial to this discussion.

Karnith: True on the limited wish/wish, but those cost xp so it's not exactly ideal. Besides all divination spells (even the cleric ones) that provide information about the future are either riddles (Divination), require exact phrasing for a good idea/bad idea answer (Augury), or may be blanket lies (Contact Other Plane). None of those spells is apt to provide useful information and several of them simply give the same answer is the same question is asked, making them still largely useless for pinpointing specific spells. (Also: Many yes/no answer questions are subjective to the point that either answer can be true. For example: Asking if Arcane Lock will be useful the next day to a higher power, both answers can be true if there's a door available wherever you 'might' be.)

Nyarlhotep: Depends on how well played the Fighter is, if they took Toughness (yeah it's useful for at least a level or two until you retrain it) or Improved Toughness past level 3 and what their Con score is. Generally Con should be a Fighter's 2nd highest score. Carry a bow, maintain distance with move actions and quickdraw in case melee happens. Entirely possible to plink the kobolds to death if they don't carry bows...which the basic kobold does not, they get a sling which has a shorter range increment than even a shortbow. Key difference is the Fighter will be at peak offensive capability even in the last fight, where the Wizard will not.

[Arundel]

Strictly speaking Extra Spell is a feat and can only be taken when leveling up. Domain Wizard gives you those spells as arcane spells, not divine, same thing with Arcane Disciple you don't get divine spells, Arcane Spellcasters can't use magic items unless they're arcane based (amusingly), and buying casting/making a cleric friend/leadership aren't the wizard casting divine spells.

So none of the examples you provided give a Wizard access to the divine spells. The real world equivalency of ability scores is immaterial to this discussion.

The discussion was about getting the spell divination as a spell that our friendly neighborhood wizard. Extra spell, domain wizard, and arcane disciple explicitly work for that. Not really sure what you're trying to get at with the arcane/divine distinction.

[Pickford]

The discussion was about getting the spell divination as a spell that our friendly neighborhood wizard. Extra spell, domain wizard, and arcane disciple explicitly work for that. Not really sure what you're trying to get at with the arcane/divine distinction.

Well, for one thing the Arcane domains don't contain any divination spells that provide information in the manner described, and in none of those situations is the Wizard casting a cleric spell.

[Arundel]

Well, for one thing the Arcane domains don't contain any divination spells that provide information in the manner described, and in none of those situations is the Wizard casting a cleric spell.

Wizard takes extra spell. Wizard chooses divination. Wizard casts divination.

Wizard takes domain wizard. Wizard takes knowledge domain. Wizard casts divination.

Wizard Arcane Disciple. Wizard worships a god with knowledge domain. Wizard casts divination.

I don't understand what your objection to this is. I'm not trying to be rude, I just don't understand.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I don't even see where divinations factor in to this. The wizard spell list is such that, even within the confines of spell slots, a wizard could overcome most any challenge put forth, based not only upon the variety of spells available to a wizard, but the variety of challenges that can be overcome with any given spell. The point isn't whether or not one can name a situation in which any given spell won't be applicable; "Web wouldn't work in this situation," and so on. Sure, web won't solve literally every encounter, but that isn't the point.

The point is that a wizard receives a sufficient number of spells with sufficiently broad application such that the wizard will be able to solve, often even trivialize, most encounters with a fairly "standard" list of memorized spells, with the exceptions of encounters or challenges patently inappropriate to the wizard's level, challenges that require player ingenuity rather than mechanical abilities, or challenges specifically designed to counter wizards while enabling other classes.

Challenges patently inappropriate for the wizard's level will be at least equally insurmountable for any mundane class. Similarly, challenges based around player ingenuity rather than mechanical abilities won't be any easier for mundane classes than magical ones, but, rather, easier for a player who is better at riddles/chess/&c. So, in neither case can the wizard's inability to solve the encounter be considered a weakness of the class; a fighter would be no more effective at solving either type of encounter and might even be less able to do so, depending on the nature of the specific encounter. With regard to challenges specifically designed to counter the wizard, the claim is true, but trivial.

[TuggyNE]

I don't even see where divinations factor in to this. The wizard spell list is such that, even within the confines of spell slots, a wizard could overcome most any challenge put forth, based not only upon the variety of spells available to a wizard, but the variety of challenges that can be overcome with any given spell. The point isn't whether or not one can name a situation in which any given spell won't be applicable; "Web wouldn't work in this situation," and so on. Sure, web won't solve literally every encounter, but that isn't the point.

The point is that a wizard receives a sufficient number of spells with sufficiently broad application such that the wizard will be able to solve, often even trivialize, most encounters with a fairly "standard" list of memorized spells, with the exceptions of encounters or challenges patently inappropriate to the wizard's level, challenges that require player ingenuity rather than mechanical abilities, or challenges specifically designed to counter wizards while enabling other classes.

Challenges patently inappropriate for the wizard's level will be at least equally insurmountable for any mundane class. Similarly, challenges based around player ingenuity rather than mechanical abilities won't be any easier for mundane classes than magical ones, but, rather, easier for a player who is better at riddles/chess/&c. So, in neither case can the wizard's inability to solve the encounter be considered a weakness of the class; a fighter would be no more effective at solving either type of encounter and might even be less able to do so, depending on the nature of the specific encounter. With regard to challenges specifically designed to counter the wizard, the claim is true, but trivial.

I agree with all this, but unfortunately it seems to have already been said, and already ignored.

So uh … maybe save your breath, or whatever?

Edit:

If everyone was Small, what would my radical group of "Gnee-High Gnation of Gnomes" be fighting against?

Think cynically for a second, and you'll undoubtedly think of a suitable target.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I saw, but I thought it might be worthwhile to reiterate all the salient points of the argument in a single post, in the hopes that combining and rewording would make the central conceits of the argument more clear. Not that there was anything wrong with how it was brought up before, just that one wording may be clear to one person and another wording clearer to another, so I thought I'd give my phrasing a shot.

[Pickford]

Wizard takes extra spell. Wizard chooses divination. Wizard casts divination.

Wizard takes domain wizard. Wizard takes knowledge domain. Wizard casts divination.

Wizard Arcane Disciple. Wizard worships a god with knowledge domain. Wizard casts divination.

I don't understand what your objection to this is. I'm not trying to be rude, I just don't understand.

Extra Spell doesn't say it adds spells to your spell list, you just learn a spell your character didn't already know. That means a Wiz/Sorc spell. Divination is not one of those.

Arcane Disciple is also specific to a single domain (not all of Cleric spells) they are arcane, not divine, and requires wisdom (basically the last stat a wizard wants to take unless they enjoy being MAD) to use those spells at all.

Oh, and it's only possible for a Wizard who is Neutral or Neutral Evil. So there's that.

I suppose I object to you saying there are plenty of ways for a pure Wizard to cast these divinations when there appear to be virtually none.

Edit: And Domain Wizard ACF from Unearthed Arcana has no Knowledge domain, they use specific arcane domains, not the cleric ones. Those are non-fungible.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

So, let's just go ahead and assume a wizard can't get the spell divination, either because this is the case or for the purposes of an intellectual exercise. Why is that relevant, at all, to the fact that said wizard doesn't need to have any idea what challenges are coming to be able to overcome them in a standard action or two? As Tuggyne pointed out, this has been brought up before and gone largely unacknowledged; as much as one can argue that wizards don't get this-or-that spell or that such-and-such spell isn't useful in one situation or another, it doesn't diminish the overall point that the combination of spells available to a wizard are, with or without advance knowledge, able to overcome any challenge which wouldn't be more difficult for a mundane class.

[Komatik]

{Scrubbed}

[Ravens_cry]

Not sure if it's worth a thread, but I wonder how it would change the game if clerics also had spell failure chance from armour.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Considering that he just explained his objections, I don't think that's fair, at all. Regardless, I think it's nicer for everyone if we can disagree with one another more politely.

[Komatik]

{scrubbed}

[Leon]

Everything would be fine without the Tier system ever existing ~ DnD worked well before it and would continue to do well without a Player created elitist mindset enforced on it.

No class is inherently better than another until made that way by a player and touted as so.

[Darius Kane]

I'm sure you also hate and vehemently oppose any other type of guide or tool that exists.
"What's this? A TV Guide? How dare you tell me what movies I should watch! Fitness guide? Burn it, I can take care of my health by myself, thank you very much!"

[Komatik]

Everything would be fine without the Tier system ever existing ~ DnD worked well before it and would continue to do well without a Player created elitist mindset enforced on it.

No class is inherently better than another until made that way by a player and touted as so.

Eh, what. The question in the OP was, what if classes with game breaking powers never existed (as that is the definition of Tier 1/2 classes: Access to game/campaign-breaking power). A different question entirely than "What if the Tier system didn't exist". Why?

Because the Tier system is just a bunch of observations about the classes that have seen print, followed up by suggestions on how to solve potential problems that logically arise (not in absolutely every game) from the observed qualities. Nothing else. Making the observations doesn't suddenly make the Wizard a walking god, just as the act of writing down the laws of gravity isn't what makes gravity exist.

Denying the Tier system does not change the fact that I can Polymorph into a Hydra, Gate in Solars and Titans, be a bear riding a bear summoning more bears. It does not change the fact that a Warblade is more mobile and versatile than a Fighter. It doesn't change the fact that trying out cool things with stuff like Teleport and Alter Self can break encounters and plot lines by sheer accident. It doesn't suddenly make Sleep, Color Spray and Solid Fog unable to trivialize encounters.
Denying the Tier system doesn't magically cause Monks to do OK against level-appropriate encounters. That act of denial doesn't suddenly render them able to create planes or make light of the action economy. It doesn't make them able to dispose of things via Death By Awesome, or pick locks with a single standard action.

Classes are not created equal, simple as that. Characters can sometimes be made roughly so. System knowledge helps make that equality even remotely possible. It means you know to say "please don't pick Polymorph" to the Wizard instead of nerfing Sneak Attack.

[Ravens_cry]

Tiers are more the result of the Internet than any change in the game. Oh, what name would be in what tier might change a bit, but if 1st and 2nd edition were the most played edition, I am sure the collective will of the Internet would make some Tier 'system'.

[Karnith]

Everything would be fine without the Tier system ever existing ~ DnD worked well before it and would continue to do well without a Player created elitist mindset enforced on it.

D&D worked literally the same way before the tier system was codified as it does now (and I would not, by any stretch, say that D&D 3.5 "worked well"). It changes none of the rules of the game, so if D&D works differently for some people after reading the tier system, that is entirely on them.

I do enjoy the image of someone reading the tier system and suddenly having their fighter be less effective in their game, though.

No class is inherently better than another until made that way by a player and touted as so.

You're going to have a hard time convincing me that a warrior isn't just strictly weaker than a warblade, or that an expert isn't just strictly weaker than a factotum. You are further going to have a hard time convincing me that wizards aren't capable of more things than warmages, or that healers are capable of more things than clerics.

I'm sure you also hate and vehemently oppose any other type of guide or tool that exists.
"What's this? A TV Guide? How dare you tell me what movies I should watch! Fitness guide? Burn it, I can take care of my health by myself, thank you very much!"

Would you mind terribly if I sig'd (at least part of) this?

[Darius Kane]

Would you mind terribly if I sig'd (at least part of) this?

Not at all!

[Rejusu]

Extra Spell doesn't say it adds spells to your spell list, you just learn a spell your character didn't already know. That means a Wiz/Sorc spell. Divination is not one of those.

This is so wrong it's not even funny. Not only is there nothing in Extra Spell that restricts you from learning a spell outside your classes spell list it even says:

For classes such as wizard that have more options for learning spells, Extra Spell is generally used to learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research.

Which means that not only can it be used to learn a Cleric spell it's explicitly intended to be used in this manner.

Arcane Disciple is also specific to a single domain (not all of Cleric spells) they are arcane, not divine, and requires wisdom (basically the last stat a wizard wants to take unless they enjoy being MAD) to use those spells at all.

That it's a single domain is irrelevant as we're only interested in a single spell: Divination. Yes it does make you more MAD but not excessively so as you only need 14 Wis for Divination. Either way it's irrelevant as it's just being thrown out there as one of the ways Wizards can get Divination. That it's one of the less optimal options doesn't matter. It's still viable.

Oh, and it's only possible for a Wizard who is Neutral or Neutral Evil. So there's that.

And this is relevant... How? Also I'm sure there's some good deity with knowledge domain in a book somewhere.

I suppose I object to you saying there are plenty of ways for a pure Wizard to cast these divinations when there appear to be virtually none.

And I object to you trying to put forth counter arguments without even doing the necessary reading. You are wrong, accept it.