World of Warcraft XIV: Fish Felreed, and the Reed Pond fish

[Traab]

God, I hate listening to the horde try to talk the pandas into becoming allies. They really need better diplomats than that. "Join us or suffer" isnt the best way to say hi to a new race of beings. Either you just earned yourself another enemy to add to the list, or you just got a bunch of panty waisted weaklings that fold under harsh words to join you. You lose either way.

[Zherog]

Did Gal and Sha for the first time last night. I joined the Gal group when he was at about 33%, so it was a good look, but not the whole fight. The group then went from there to Sha. Out of 37 people, I was 15th in DPS - not too bad, I think, for somebody who barely qualifies for LFR. Also got a real nice foot slot upgrade from Sha, via the quest. Both were way easier than I thought (though I can't really say what I expected).

Almost completely done Golden Lotus rep, probably two more days, and I've started on August Celestials. I know I don't need to get GL to exalted, but I want the Kite mount, which (I believe) requires getting a whole bunch to exalted.

I may hit up LFR this weekend, if I can find the time between holiday stuff, freelance work, and kids.

[Karoht]

The only problem with LFR is how I'm geared. I have the required IL, but not for my spec. My main is a Blood Elf Prot Paladin, but I've been setting my gear up for DPS rather than tanking. I started him mainly to farm old world content for, well everything I can drag out of it. I'm worried I'll show up for LFR and people will immediately start screaming things at me. I personally don't care, but it's annoying seeing that crap pop up in my news feed.

So queue up as a DPS in your tanking gear. The system doesn't care if your gear is for tanking or not. No one is going to know, unless you pull threat or start off-tanking.

"I'm worried people will..."
Seriously, unless you do something that directly causes a wipe, no one will notice you. People AFK in LFR, blame their computer for their crappy DPS, etc. You'll be fine. Don't worry about other people being jerks. If they are, so what? Chances are good that there will be people in your group worse than you. Go have fun and gear up that off-spec.


@Traab and Psyren
I love how you guys don't raid yet somehow speak for the hardcore and casual community. Just find it funny is all.

I can appreciate their caution though, and waiting so long to implement new features doesn't seem to have hurt the game much overall.

I'm quoting this now, before my semi-ranty semi-informational post that follows, to again reaffirm that we appear to be on the same page for the most part. Your quote is pretty much my entire point. Caution never hurts, especially as something that seems pretty small on the surface can have massive impacts, particularly in a game with as much iterative design as WoW.


============
There is a major difference between 'have the ability to' and 'obligated to' do something.
'Have the ability to' maintain two specs before dual spec? Sure. Was anyone outside the hardcore community obligated to? Nope. Once dual spec was a thing, was anyone outside the hardcore community obligated to? Did the behavior trickle down? No. And with LFR being widespread, along with more players being focused on normal mode, hence more data regarding 'casual' play, they had all the indication they needed to see that it wouldn't be a problem. That casual players would not be obligated to maintain more than one spec.
This was also a stated concern from Bashiok regarding Tri-Spec before Cataclysm launched, and it has been brought up pretty much every patch since. And I'm pretty sure these guys have more intel on their own raiding community than you guys do.

Lore did a fantastic discussion about tri-spec about 4 months ago on the Weekly Marmot, let alone the fact that it constantly keeps coming up in conversation on Legendary and PST. The Hardcore perspective was always that the number of specs largely didn't matter. Dual-Spec and Tri-Spec was never really a feature for them. But, the impact was pretty noticable during Wrath and Cataclysm as the expectation rose among the hardcore crowd. Yes, the feature was implimented for the casuals, but the impact was most strongly felt among the hardcore. And typically the behaviors of the hardcore, for better or for worse, tend to trickle down to the casuals. Sometimes as harmless suggestions that become mainstream, sometimes as major expectations with signifigant ramifications.

Gearscore in pugging becomes an excellent example. Yes, inspections happened in pugging but they were not extremely commonplace. Then the Gearscore addon gained ground among the hardcores who were running pugs and GDKP's, using gearscore to tell not only who knew what they were doing but who was likely to need upgrades and therefore bid higher. Yes, Gearscore's original intention was to tell carriers from the bidders and make such inspections quick and convenient. After that, Gearscore became the major expectation even among the casuals, despite the casuals being against such judgement/exclusion systems. WoW Insider had an awesome article on the sorrid path of Gearscore, published some time during early Cataclysm. Overall, this is an example of the hardcores doing something, even niche, and it becoming a widespread major expectation. One which had a major impact on the game. If you don't agree with me about the impact, by all means go watch trade channel for 30 minutes and tell me how many pugs are NOT posting up an average ilevel requirement.

[The Glyphstone]

I've yet to see pugs advertising for anything in Trade, or asking for iLvl of any kind, though I think that's because of the power of LFR. No one needs to PuG a raid, they can just queue (and the system automatically handles the minimum iLvL issue), and for world bosses no one cares, they'll take anyone and overwhelm it with numbers.

I do remember that from the end of Cataclysm, though.




In-game...great LFR week. Finally got Mystically Epic with 483 bracers, dagger, and offhand from HoF and ToES, though I have yet to see my Sha weapon (7/6 sigils, so no rush there).

[Traab]

@Traab and Psyren
I love how you guys don't raid yet somehow speak for the hardcore and casual community. Just find it funny is all.

yeeeaaaah, except how I, you know, specifically stated what circumstances I was talking about in which I DID have experience. I really WAS in a hardcore raiding guild back in freaking vanilla, we really DID maintain multiple talent setups and gear, so I really dont get your problem. Hardcore players really were already doing all that stuff even before dual specs came out, let alone possible tri specs. Granted its more involved now than it was back then but it was still being done as people minmaxed to the highest extent they could at the time and did it for multiple specs. There were people in my guild rocking specs and gear for three different activities, raids, farming, and pvp.

[Seerow]

yeeeaaaah, except how I, you know, specifically stated what circumstances I was talking about in which I DID have experience. I really WAS in a hardcore raiding guild back in freaking vanilla, we really DID maintain multiple talent setups and gear, so I really dont get your problem. Hardcore players really were already doing all that stuff even before dual specs came out, let alone possible tri specs. Granted its more involved now than it was back then but it was still being done as people minmaxed to the highest extent they could at the time and did it for multiple specs. There were people in my guild rocking specs and gear for three different activities, raids, farming, and pvp.

What you did 5 years ago doesn't really matter in the current gaming environment.

You are constantly going on rants about how everything has been made too easy while not engaging in any of the actual challenging content in the game. It's a really weird dissonance, because it seems that to you hardcore is not a measure of skill, but rather how many hoops you're willing to jump through to play the game. There's a market out there of games like that, look at any Korean MMO. But personally? I'm glad that mindset is getting more and more rare.

[Traab]

What you did 5 years ago doesn't really matter in the current gaming environment.

You are constantly going on rants about how everything has been made too easy while not engaging in any of the actual challenging content in the game. It's a really weird dissonance, because it seems that to you hardcore is not a measure of skill, but rather how many hoops you're willing to jump through to play the game. There's a market out there of games like that, look at any Korean MMO. But personally? I'm glad that mindset is getting more and more rare.

Except, none of that has anything to do with my post. I was merely pointing out that the hardcore set was already doing the very things karoht said the new convenience would lead to and had in fact been doing just that from the very beginning. And while the non raiders didnt have raiding sets, a rather large portion of THEM had pve and pvp specs they switched back and forth between as well as gear sets.

And while in one of my last posts I mentioned the game had been moving towards making everything more convenient since tbc, I wasnt saying that as an indictment, just as a statement that blizzard has been moving that way for a lot of years now, so its no big surprise that they would be adding in a tri spec option as well.

As for ranting about no challenging content while ignoring the challenging content. Im sorry, I guess you find it annoying that I dislike the fact that the game used to have a challenge from start to finish and now it doesnt. Too bad.

[Lord Raziere]

heh, I don't even have add ons. I play just fine without any modifications.

and yeah….I don't think the Horde has ever been that good in the diplomacy department. except probably the Blood Elves. they should probably get them to be more on top of the diplomat thing, with all their refined manners and fancy dresses and whatnot. I mean think about it: the orcs are crude and honest to a fault, goblins are explosion happy capitalists, trolls while clever dabble in dark magics, while the Forsaken…..

……They are the Forsaken.

the horde needs Blood Elves to be better at diplomacy. the only other race that qualifies is the Tauren, but I think the blood elves have a better grasp of the social complexities of diplomatic negotiation and delicate political matters.

[Traab]

heh, I don't even have add ons. I play just fine without any modifications.

and yeah….I don't think the Horde has ever been that good in the diplomacy department. except probably the Blood Elves. they should probably get them to be more on top of the diplomat thing, with all their refined manners and fancy dresses and whatnot. I mean think about it: the orcs are crude and honest to a fault, goblins are explosion happy capitalists, trolls while clever dabble in dark magics, while the Forsaken…..

……They are the Forsaken.

the horde needs Blood Elves to be better at diplomacy. the only other race that qualifies is the Tauren, but I think the blood elves have a better grasp of the social complexities of diplomatic negotiation and delicate political matters.

I thought the forsaken missed the boat on racial behavior. They could have been this cool emo race of beings, a palpable aura of sorrow and regret hovering in the air around them. They are cursed beings doomed to walk the earth, rejected by their former families, forced to live in the ruins of the city they once loved, etc etc etc. Now they are pretty much all poison happy murder hobos out to kill everything and make them join their side.

[Lord Raziere]

yeah…..someone needs to get rid of Sylvanas someday. with that….as Garrosh so succintly put it- bitch in charge there is no way you won't end up with poison-happy murder hobos.

(she is an evil necromancer witch trying to re-plague everything and is basically Lich Queen but with free willed zombies, and even Garrosh does not approve of her actions. she is more than qualified to be called a bitch)

[Psyren]

@Traab and Psyren
I love how you guys don't raid yet somehow speak for the hardcore and casual community. Just find it funny is all.

How very elitist of you.
And just because I haven't raided in Pandaria yet doesn't mean I never raided at all, nor does it mean I don't personally know anyone who does. Any more ad hominems you'd like to casually toss at me?

Except, none of that has anything to do with my post. I was merely pointing out that the hardcore set was already doing the very things karoht said the new convenience would lead to and had in fact been doing just that from the very beginning. And while the non raiders didnt have raiding sets, a rather large portion of THEM had pve and pvp specs they switched back and forth between as well as gear sets.

And while in one of my last posts I mentioned the game had been moving towards making everything more convenient since tbc, I wasnt saying that as an indictment, just as a statement that blizzard has been moving that way for a lot of years now, so its no big surprise that they would be adding in a tri spec option as well.

This was my point as well.


As for challenge in the game, that's a totally different subject; I definitely think it's there from Cataclysm content onward, but just about everything Wrath and below is a faceroll now. For vanilla I don't see much problem with that - nobody wants to be in Dire Maul for long - but I wouldn't mind boss mechanics or cc being important a little earlier too, or healers not being perpetual mana machines until 81. But I don't care about it all that much, the system works overall fine currently.

[Karoht]

How very elitist of you.
And just because I haven't raided in Pandaria yet doesn't mean I never raided at all, nor does it mean I don't personally know anyone who does. Any more ad hominems you'd like to casually toss at me?

I'm honestly not sure either of you read a word of what I wrote.
What I was asserting was that Blizzard had a concern. Yes, people had the ability to manage 2 specs before dual-spec. In theory, they had the ability to manage an infinite number of specs before dual-spec, so long as they felt like jumping through all the hoops to do it.
My point, which I will iterate again, was that there is a fundamental difference between 'having the ability' and being 'obligated.'
Blizzards concern was, by adding the convenience, it changes things from 'having the ability' all the way into an expectation or 'obligation.' One that could have had a negative impact on the community. Not the hardcore community, the casual one (well, the whole community really, but mostly impacting the casual side). Hence the assertion that just because something is convenient doesn't mean it is a good idea, or to extrapolate further, doesn't mean that it can't have an unforseen negative impact.
Luckily, it didn't have that impact. Which is what I've said in 3 different posts now. It was a success through 2 expansions, and as such, Tri-Spec was something they put on the to-do list starting back shortly after 4.2 launched, if we go by what Bashiok says, and I'm pretty sure Ghostcrawler said it was on the to-do list not long after 4.3 hit PTR.


@Raid Update
LOVE Durumu. It feels so much like Heroic Hagara progression! Survival focused fight, feels like a bit of a puzzle. Defeating him will feel like solving the equasion. Excellent design, sufficiently challenging. If the 7th boss is this hard, I'm curious how hard Lei Shen is going to be.

[Psyren]

My point, which I will iterate again, was that there is a fundamental difference between 'having the ability' and being 'obligated.'
Blizzards concern was, by adding the convenience, it changes things from 'having the ability' all the way into an expectation or 'obligation.' One that could have had a negative impact on the community.

I find the notion that convenience leads to obligation to be frankly ridiculous. It's a game, not a job - nobody can obligate or force you to do anything, even if a change to the game makes it easier for you to do. Whether you're in a hardcore raiding/battleground guild or just a laid-back "do whatever" one, people grouping up might pressure you to fill a role they are lacking members for (e.g. "can you respec heals?") - but it's still ultimately your decision until such time as those people start paying your sub fee for you. Adding tri-spec might make it slightly easier for such people to nag you, but it also lowers the inconvenience of switching and gives you more incentive to actually try that third spec out regularly. How could this be anything but good?

Again, I applaud their decision to do this, and I respect their caution, but at the same time I think the worry was overblown.

[Karoht]

I find the notion that convenience leads to obligation to be frankly ridiculous. It's a game, not a job - nobody can obligate or force you to do anything, even if a change to the game makes it easier for you to do. Whether you're in a hardcore raiding/battleground guild or just a laid-back "do whatever" one, people grouping up might pressure you to fill a role they are lacking members for (e.g. "can you respec heals?") - but it's still ultimately your decision until such time as those people start paying your sub fee for you. Adding tri-spec might make it slightly easier for such people to nag you, but it also lowers the inconvenience of switching and gives you more incentive to actually try that third spec out regularly. How could this be anything but good?

Just because you don't understand this effect doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
DREAM Paragon expects all of it's members to have off-specs geared and ready to go, and know how to play them to their max. They also expect people to have a minimum of 2 alts of different classes, set up and ready to play, and know how to play them to their max. Blood Legion, Method, Vodka, KIN Raiders, etc, all of them started doing this back in Cataclysm. Pretty much the top 1000 guilds on WoW-progress.com all have this policy or similar.

You're right, no one can force you to run two specs, or three, or have geared up alts, or anything of the like. On the other hand, your raid leader can bump you for someone who is 100% ready and willing to do the things you are not. And if you don't think this happens in the Hardcore community (which is actually getting bigger, not smaller) then it completely demonstrates that yes, you are talking about something you don't understand yet claim to. This is entirely how the hardcore community runs. The lesser demand for buff stacking and the overall easing of raid comps brought by Pandaria has greatly lessened this, but it's also pushed more people to playing whole other alts as opposed to changing specs for some reason (as far as the Hardcore community is concerned).

"Adding tri-spec might make it slightly easier for such people to nag you"
Bingo, you said it. It opens the door for the nagging. The lack of inconvenience means it is now 'no big deal' to switch specs and fill in the roll that your team needs. You are entirely right, it is the players choice what the player ultimately does. But when they are essentially forced into playing a role they don't want to play, and don't have other guilds to go to, then they tend to stop raiding, have less fun, unsub, etc. Less players in the raiding pool, no matter what the skill or input category, tends to hurt the community, especially on less populated servers.

Normally, the trend tends to be that the casual community picks up things that the hardcore community does. As I have asserted in 3 other posts, and as I shall now assert for the fourth time, thankfully that didn't happen in this case. Blizzard played the waiting game rather than blundering in willy nilly, and on the whole it worked out.

Remember the days when we had attitudes in 5-mans?
"You don't have this talent? What are you, stupid? L2Play n00bcake!" Aren't we glad that went away?
Imagine that with whole specs. In LFR. Yeah, that could very well have been a thing. Thankfully it didn't happen.

[Psyren]

Just because you don't understand this effect doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
DREAM Paragon expects all of it's members to have off-specs geared and ready to go, and know how to play them to their max.

"Adding tri-spec might make it slightly easier for such people to nag you"
Bingo, you said it. It opens the door for the nagging. The lack of inconvenience means it is now 'no big deal' to switch specs and fill in the roll that your team needs.

Do you not realize how completely different these two situations are?

Being part of a competitive guild like DREAM, and simply being nagged by a casual guild or friends to change specs, have completely different expectations. But here's the thing - neither of them matter for tri-spec.

1) Hardcore environment (e.g. DREAM) - they were already doing what they had to do to maintain multiple spec configurations. This is what Traab and I were saying. Tri-spec made things a bit easier on them but offered no drastically new functionality.

2) Casual environment - yeah they might get nagged more. Might. Big whoop. What are the consequences for ignoring that and playing your own way? If you cared about it that much, you'd already be in a hardcore guild. Otherwise, if you're good at your preferred spec (or two preferred specs), those are what you play with, and everyone else can deal with it. If you're the type who does want to switch things around to help your friends out, tri-spec is a godsend, but there are no real consequences for not doing so. If you're the type who doesn't because of the hassle, tri-spec alleviates that, and some people that might not have otherwise respecced to help their friends will do so. And finally, if you're the type that simply isn't interested in those other specs, you won't care.

In other words, having tri-spec benefits some groups and is neutral for others. If the only downside is increased nagging for a handful, that is no downside as far as I'm concerned.

[Aidan305]

Thought for the morning:

Why do people never seem to realise that Oondasta facing the raid is a bad thing?

[Traab]

Thought for the morning:

Why do people never seem to realise that Oondasta facing the raid is a bad thing?

Because a person is smart, people are dumb.

[Lord Raziere]

Because a person is smart, people are dumb.

but people are made of persons…..

[Karoht]

2) Casual environment - yeah they might get nagged more. Might. Big whoop.

Clearly you have never been in this situation. It shows.

What are the consequences for ignoring that and playing your own way?

Well, back in the days that Traab constantly pines for, you could lose your raid spot or even be blacklisted. That's a pretty big consequence. Today you can lose your raid spot, heck, even the friendship/respect of your guildies.

If the only downside is increased nagging for a handful, that is no downside as far as I'm concerned.

Only because you've never been in a position where you were obligated. And if you ever were you would never admit it, because that would prove my point for me.

Those are what you play with, and everyone else can deal with it.

Given the number of bad raid leader stories and bad guild stories I've personally read about on this forum alone, apparently, no, people don't just deal with it, even among the casual guilds. You can keep asserting to me that it isn't a problem and never was, but that would be completely ignorant of the posts in this thread over the last few years. Or are you going to ignore that as well? You've ignored every other source I've cited, so it would be par for the course.

So, for the 5th time I will say it.
I am certainly glad that it didn't become a trend among the casual guilds. It could have, it certainly had the potential to, but it didn't, which is good.

[Psyren]

Clearly you have never been in this situation. It shows.

You mean being nagged? No, I have, and I got over it pretty easily. I've quit guilds several times that have had environments I found to be toxic or undesirable to me - it's not hard to do, it only takes 6 characters. Most times, if not all, I've gotten an invite from a new guild the moment someone noticed there was no tag under my name.

Rather, it seems to me that anyone who has that much trouble not doing something they don't want to do, cares too much about what other people's vision for their character is. I sympathize - somewhat - with those people, but I see no reason Blizzard should delay useful game features because they have pleaser issues.

Well, back in the days that Traab constantly pines for, you could lose your raid spot or even be blacklisted. That's a pretty big consequence. Today you can lose your raid spot, heck, even the friendship/respect of your guildies.

1) Honestly, if you're going to lose people's "friendship" or "respect" simply because those people care more about what they want for your character than you do, you never had either of those things from them to begin with.

2) "Blacklisting" means nothing to casual players, the group that would stand to benefit most from this feature. Aside from uber-exclusive outfits like DREAM or Method - which I highly doubt would appeal to casual players anyway - a guild to me is a matter of convenience for both parties, not a top law firm or an exclusive university. In short, if they don't pay my sub, they can't tell me how to play my characters, end of. Hell, if I run around without a <Name> hovering over my head in any major city for more than a minute, I get pelted with invites from level 25 guilds; that's just how the game is.

Besides which, if your entire guild (or even just its leadership) is going to ostracize you for not playing a particular spec, you quite simply don't belong with those people. At the very least, passive-aggressively hiding behind lack of an easy way to respec as your reason why instead of clearly saying "I just don't want to, and you should respect my decision" isn't going to help either side.

Only because you've never been in a position where you were obligated. And if you ever were you would never admit it, because that would prove my point for me.

Of course I haven't been "obligated." (I've been asked/nagged, but never obligated.) As I said multiple times before, WoW is a game, not my job. Nobody can force me to do anything I don't want to do, no matter how easy Blizzard makes it for me to do that thing.

That may not be true for everyone, but delaying features like tri-spec for those people that can't say no is not an approach I will agree with. I sincerely hope that isn't the only reason it's taken this long.

Given the number of bad raid leader stories and bad guild stories I've personally read about on this forum alone, apparently, no, people don't just deal with it, even among the casual guilds. You can keep asserting to me that it isn't a problem and never was, but that would be completely ignorant of the posts in this thread over the last few years. Or are you going to ignore that as well? You've ignored every other source I've cited, so it would be par for the course.

I may not have read every story you have, but I do know that you have zero proof having tri-spec around would have made those situations worse, or even that not having it made them any better. It's pure supposition on your part. And as I said above, if the people in those bad situations kept things from being any worse by being able to say "see! I'd love to surrender control of my character's choices to you, if only the game would more easily let me" belong in different guilds or with different "friends" to begin with.

My only hope is that Blizzard doesn't make its decisions the same way, or at least that they have a lot more to go on than "guilds can be mean and some people have trouble saying no, so let's not do this yet."

[Karoht]

@Psyren
I love how you show such disdain for those who caved under the pressure, you're entire post is filled with a tone of superiority and highground. I'm glad this is just a game to you and that you can walk away from 9/24 other players so quickly and easily. I am also glad that when you had your raid spot threatened you were able to quit and find another group. Many people in this thread alone have complained to the contrary. Just because you found it easy to quit a guild and find another doesn't mean that the rest of the community (be it casual or hardcore or anything else) can.

Want to know why I found it rather hard to say no when I was put in the position of obligation?
Firelands. I was asked to go Boomkin on Heroic Rhyolith. We had a 10 man group late at night. Finding a pug for the night to fill in for me if I left would be unlikely. So because I actually gave a damn about the 9 other people I played with and didn't want to ruin their night, I caved. I did piss poor DPS, which I warned them about. The next day, I found out that the GM of the guild wanted to boot me out over the matter. It was remarkably unfair to judge my performance based on one night in a role I am unfamiliar with, and completely ignore my previous 4 tiers of content where I was a solid healer. They came to their senses, and things smoothed out.
I'm glad they did. At the time I couldn't afford a server transfer, and we were one of 3 other guilds that ran at this time of night. We were the most progressed of the 3, not to mention one of the top 5 guilds on the server.

So my choices were, go join an inferior guild and leave friends behind, or server transfer which would be an annoyance and an expense, or stick it out with my guild. Luckily, things worked out in the end.

As I said before, not everyone has that option, to just walk away, especially on smaller servers. For some people the choice when presented with such a situation is respec or stop raiding.
And for the 6th time I will say this. I'm very glad that such a trend did not become widespread. I'm glad Blizzard didn't blunder into this at the wrong time.

I do know that you have zero proof having tri-spec around would have made those situations worse, or even that not having it made them any better.

Nope, I don't have any concrete proof. But Blizzard certainly had enough feedback from their community (or at least Bashiok and Ghostcrawler both claimed such) to give the concept some thought, rather than just blunder in and let the chips fall where they did. If you have proof that they are wrong, by all means cite it.

My only hope is that Blizzard doesn't make its decisions the same way, or at least that they have a lot more to go on than "guilds can be mean and some people have trouble saying no, so let's not do this yet."

So Blizzard shouldn't listen to it's community feedback and should just implement features of convenience without proper consideration? Okay, go tell that to the CRZ hater threads on the wow forums, lets see how far you get with that assertion.

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu:Can everyone just take a breath, step back from the keyboard, and either come at this a little less emotionally or just move on to something else entirely? This is getting very heated very fast, and I want to cut it off before it fully devolves into flaming and personal attacks.

Burble.

[Seerow]

Want to know why I found it rather hard to say no when I was put in the position of obligation?
Firelands. I was asked to go Boomkin on Heroic Rhyolith. We had a 10 man group late at night. Finding a pug for the night to fill in for me if I left would be unlikely. So because I actually gave a damn about the 9 other people I played with and didn't want to ruin their night, I caved. I did piss poor DPS, which I warned them about. The next day, I found out that the GM of the guild wanted to boot me out over the matter. It was remarkably unfair to judge my performance based on one night in a role I am unfamiliar with, and completely ignore my previous 4 tiers of content where I was a solid healer. They came to their senses, and things smoothed out.
I'm glad they did. At the time I couldn't afford a server transfer, and we were one of 3 other guilds that ran at this time of night. We were the most progressed of the 3, not to mention one of the top 5 guilds on the server.

I just want to point out your whole scenario there has nothing to do with casuals. When you're running heroic anything, much less able to measure your progression in terms of Top X on the server, you're far outside casual range. Yes, raiding guilds with a focus on progression expect certain things of their raiders. That's just part of what you have to put up with if you want to raid at that level.

Seriously, I've been playing casual for the last few months. The pestering at that level is more like every now and then I get a complaint "Man these queues suck, wouldn't it be nice if we had a tank right now?" or "It would be so great if we didn't have to put up with this ****ty tank right now, wouldn't it?", or occasionally a more firm "Dude why the **** are you using your tank spec? I know you have one!" I dealt with passive pestering like that for months before someone else in the guild got tired of expecting me to play something I didn't want and leveled his DK.

[Zherog]

Definitely have just one more day of Golden Lotus to go before I hit exalted. Even if I come up a little short from the dailies and fulfilling the order on my farm, I can grab a bit of bonus rep from doing a scenario and/or random heroic.

Also been progressing Shado-Pan and August Celestials. And Thunder King Isle stuff when I get to it.

[Traab]

Damn, it is scary how much ghost iron ore and exotic leather you can accrue without even noticing. I am pretty sure I got reported for hacking in stormwind because I stood next to a crowded forge and for about 3 minutes straight did nothing but produce hundreds of ghost iron bars. I didnt even realize how bad it was until I tried to loot something only to realize I was out of space, then I looked and saw I had like 2-3 bags worth of ghost iron ore. Best part is im pretty sure all of it sold, since I opened my mail and had a few pages worth of stuff to collect.

[Lord Raziere]

I just want to point out your whole scenario there has nothing to do with casuals. When you're running heroic anything, much less able to measure your progression in terms of Top X on the server, you're far outside casual range. Yes, raiding guilds with a focus on progression expect certain things of their raiders. That's just part of what you have to put up with if you want to raid at that level.

Seriously, I've been playing casual for the last few months. The pestering at that level is more like every now and then I get a complaint "Man these queues suck, wouldn't it be nice if we had a tank right now?" or "It would be so great if we didn't have to put up with this ****ty tank right now, wouldn't it?", or occasionally a more firm "Dude why the **** are you using your tank spec? I know you have one!" I dealt with passive pestering like that for months before someone else in the guild got tired of expecting me to play something I didn't want and leveled his DK.

wait, running heroic anything is outside casual?

awesome. I make sure to run those a lot

and I make sure to always dual spec myself. I like trying out different specs and options, that and I don't have time to wait if a role is a missing and I can fill it if I just change specs. me, I like dual speccing it improves my versatility and allows for more options.

as for tri-speccing….hmm…..well I'll probably go for that to, just to round things out, so that I don't have to change one of the specs I already have. then if I ever want to be another spec, they are just a switch away. the only class where this would be a problem, is Druid. and even then its pretty much a question of "which role do I like the least?" and it'll probably be the tanking one. don't really care for being a bear.

[Seerow]

wait, running heroic anything is outside casual?

awesome. I make sure to run those a lot

Raid bosses I meant, not heroic dungeons lol

[The Glyphstone]

Anyone leveled a tank-spec monk? I don't have a monk character, and if I'm going to level something from 1-90, I want it to be something I'll enjoy at 90.

[Seerow]

Anyone leveled a tank-spec monk? I don't have a monk character, and if I'm going to level something from 1-90, I want it to be something I'll enjoy at 90.

I leveled mine as Windwalker. I was planning on leveling a second one with my friend, me tanking and him healing, but that won't be for a few weeks most likely.

[Togath]

Spinning fire lotus tends to make it better to level Windwalker, at least until it reaches cata or pandaria, since it can often allow you to kill things before they even reach melee range.
For dungeons or questing in a group though, Brewmaster is great regardless of level.