is Haley a Draketooth?

[Alaris]

Eh, I could see Cloister protecting Haley. I mean, Familicide seeks out the descendants of the targeted creature, presumably 'divining' them in some manner. Cloister prevents any divination of any kind.

Comparing it to Orbs, where the person has to see the target, and shoot at them... well, it's not quite right. Familicide is a decidedly different spell.

Now, I'm one who doesn't believe Haley is a Draketooth, but I am simply making the argument for Cloister being an appropriate defense against Familicide.

[B. Dandelion]

Yes, she is -- but her connection is through Ian; every gene that would be related to the Draketooths come from him.

No -- that's not how it works. The spell wouldn't kill Ian and then "spread to" Haley. They're both affected in the same round. Because either they're both related to the target creature (Momma Black Dragon) or they're both related to someone who was related to her.

It is more than possible that the spell doesn't need to spread from one person to the next, but we don't know the particulars.

Step 1: Kill everyone with the original target's blood. This is a simple yes/no effect: Is a creature (the secondary target) related by blood to the original target at all, in any way? If yes, kill it. If no, move on. Number of generations or percentage of blood or direction doesn't matter.

Step 2: Kill everyone who shares blood with any of the people killed in Step 1. Think of it as killing everyone descended from (or siblings to) any and all still-living ancestors of each secondary target. So if Penelope had a grandfather on one side and a great-grandmother on the other side who were still alive, every person who could trace their blood back to either of those people would be dead, because Penelope's daughter carries both of their bloods. If a person can only trace their blood through (say) Penelope's already-dead great-great-great-grandfather, then they're safe. Thus cousins and second-cousins and the like are all dead, but more distant genetic relations are not. It is possible for some cousins to survive if all older generations were already dead, yes, but Vaarsuvius wasn't really likely to take the time to make that distinction while sobbing on a dungeon hallway floor.

This idea that Haley would be shielded if Ian were comes entirely from looking at the visual effect rather than the actual description of the spell, both from Vaarsuvius and from the Giant. From the written description, if Ian were vulnerable, Haley would be too, so if Ian were shielded by the anti-magic field that would save his life but NOT hers.

If you want to take up an alternate interpretation based on the visual effect... well, okay, although I think you're overstating artistic license. The "chained lightning" effect is suitably dramatic but I don't think it has any bearing on who actually lives or dies.

[Gift Jeraff]

V's tropical birds were able to get past the Cloister, though.

[Xelbiuj]

Can you scry on people in an anti-magic field?
The spell has a ridiculous save or die when it targets you but perhaps the save for it finding you is a lot lower? Couldn't make it any better without increasing the spellcraft dc. /not a D&D expert

I dunno, just saying it's not impossible.
No real evidence to say she is though. So, I doubt it.

[Porthos]

I'm not quite sure why people think an Anti-Magic Field would be more than a piddling little speedbump to a spell like Familicide.

Second, don't forget that Cloister was specifically felled by TWO seperate Epic Level Magic effects. Here and here.

So that objection is pretty much tossed out as well.

No, anyone related to the Draketooths is D-E-A-D. With the possible (and getting less possibile with every passing strip) exception if they personally had Epic Level magic on hand to try and protect themselves. But since neither Haley nor Ian had access to said Epicness, I'm gonna say....

No. No Haley is not a Draketooth.

[SaintRidley]

You are equating being dead with being magically shielded. They are not remotely similar conditions, so why are you doing that?


The fact that Girard is dead proves that the spell works across dead generations. That's all it proves. It has no bearing on whether someone could be shielded from the effect by being in an anti-magic field.

If you're dead, you are protected from the effect. Nothing to find or hit in a dead person. If it's actually traveling through the blood line, then it should stop there at that big old hole. Living and dead are two different states, and if a spell targets and kills living relatives, it certainly won't affect dead ones. And if it moves through them to find the next, it won't move through the dead either. Like how some suppose an anti-magic field would block the spell's traveling.

Of course, this is granting the pretty flimsy premise that an anti-magic field would stand up to an epic spell (particularly one so powerful as this one), considering that they often don't. If I don't grant that, and I really shouldn't in the first place, then I don't have to say anything about Girard.

Secondly, the spell doesn't travel through the bloodline*. The spell kills you if you're a valid target, the end. No protection from dead relations, and no protection from having a relation miraculously survive via anti-magic (nor are they at all likely to survive).

If your blood says Mama Black Dragon, you die. If your blood says "Being whose blood says Mama Black Dragon," you die too. B. Dandelion elaborates this with Rich's words, but that's the gist.


*Well, step two kind of does, but in the specific case of the Draketooth clan and potential Draketooth members, it's irrelevant, due to them being pretty much directly related through their dragon being a direct relation of Mama Black.

[Heksefatter]

I suppose that you could make some incredibly contrieved argument that Haley would be protected by the cloister and Ian through Haley. But on the other hand, the only thing supporting the theory is that the Starshines are redhaired and paranoid, and so are the Draketooths.

But even the cloister argument is highly unlikely. The cloister spell would have protected Haley by having her being "untargettable." However, the Draketooths were also prevented from being targetted with likely epic magic.

[Fish]

What evidence is there that it goes from oldest to youngest? The chain could simply be "closest in physical space."

Also, to add to my own post, let's not confuse the way the spell works, with the way it is drawn.

[SowZ]

Spoiler

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[Taelas]

This idea that Haley would be shielded if Ian were comes entirely from looking at the visual effect rather than the actual description of the spell, both from Vaarsuvius and from the Giant. From the written description, if Ian were vulnerable, Haley would be too, so if Ian were shielded by the anti-magic field that would save his life but NOT hers.

If you want to take up an alternate interpretation based on the visual effect... well, okay, although I think you're overstating artistic license. The "chained lightning" effect is suitably dramatic but I don't think it has any bearing on who actually lives or dies.

Yes, the Giant's comment regarding step one pretty much nails it. Thank you for providing the quote.

[Sunken Valley]

Cloister wore off. Xykon (presumably is LV27) cast it a week after new year. Haley skipped Azure City 16 weeks later. There are 52 weeks in a year (if not then its Burlew's job to tell us). Belkar was given 6 weeks left to live in a diagnosis by Roy. Meaning there was a 45 week period in which Roy was dead. Take away Haley leaving that's 29 weeks where she wasn't in a cloister before V rocked the world. Xykon would need to be 29+ and have cast Cloister the day Haley left for that to work.

Now that poses a new question. What was Haley doing for 29 weeks?

[The_Tentacle]

You have to remember that Windy Canyon was also shielded from the same types of divination that the cloister presumably protects against. Z couldn't scry it or the Draketooths, so why would the magic go through Daketooth anti-scry but not cloister? Yeah, maybe Draketooth anti-scry isn't epic, but it probably is. If they were able to keep up that kind of desert illusion system going, at least one of the Draketooths would need to be epic... probably.

[TheYell]

So I can either believe that Ian and Haley are Draketooths, and that totally separate and unplanned coincidences spared both of them from a global spell specifically targeting all the Draketooths at once, including those holed up in a secret last-stand hold-at-all-costs fortress of spellcasters

or

I can believe they aren't Draketooths.

[Chantelune]

Eh, I could see Cloister protecting Haley. I mean, Familicide seeks out the descendants of the targeted creature, presumably 'divining' them in some manner. Cloister prevents any divination of any kind.

Comparing it to Orbs, where the person has to see the target, and shoot at them... well, it's not quite right. Familicide is a decidedly different spell.

Now, I'm one who doesn't believe Haley is a Draketooth, but I am simply making the argument for Cloister being an appropriate defense against Familicide.

I don't think so. It seems that epic magic can get through the cloister and Familicide is an epic spell.

[Psyren]

Lest we forget, Epic spells can penetrate AMF anyway.

So I can either believe that Ian and Haley are Draketooths, and that totally separate and unplanned coincidences spared both of them from a global spell specifically targeting all the Draketooths at once, including those holed up in a secret last-stand hold-at-all-costs fortress of spellcasters

or

I can believe they aren't Draketooths.

But... but red hair!

[Peelee]

Cloister wore off. Xykon (presumably is LV27) cast it a week after new year. Haley skipped Azure City 16 weeks later. There are 52 weeks in a year (if not then its Burlew's job to tell us). Belkar was given 6 weeks left to live in a diagnosis by Roy. Meaning there was a 45 week period in which Roy was dead. Take away Haley leaving that's 29 weeks where she wasn't in a cloister before V rocked the world. Xykon would need to be 29+ and have cast Cloister the day Haley left for that to work.

Now that poses a new question. What was Haley doing for 29 weeks?

I thought Xykon was refreshing the Cloister every week. Was it Dorukan who did that, or did I make it up entirely?

Also, where do you see that Cloister wore off on Haley? Can you provide a source strip? I always assumed any scrying effects (such as Z's eye in the desert) were able to get the whole of the order except for Haley, and since it isn't really a big issue, it's just never addressed.

[SaintRidley]

I don't think so. It seems that epic magic can get through the cloister and Familicide is an epic spell.

To add to this in a different direction, Cloister protects against Divinations. Note the capital D. Divination is a specific school of magic. As a general case, spells which gather information or divine whereabouts or other such things fall under the category of Divination. However, Familicide, even if it appears to be divining (note the lowercase d) its targets, is not Divining them. (It's not actually divining them either, as it's target is simply the blood of Mama Black Dragon). The spell is not a Divination spell, but a Necromancy spell. And Cloister doesn't protect against that.

[brionl]

But... but red hair!

Don't forget secretive and paranoid. Only people that are half-dragon have those traits.

[SaintRidley]

I thought Xykon was refreshing the Cloister every week. Was it Dorukan who did that, or did I make it up entirely?

Also, where do you see that Cloister wore off on Haley? Can you provide a source strip? I always assumed any scrying effects (such as Z's eye in the desert) were able to get the whole of the order except for Haley, and since it isn't really a big issue, it's just never addressed.

Pretty sure it's Xykon who was refreshing the spell every other week or so. Can't find the reference right now.

Also, Belkar and Mr. Scruffy are covered by Cloister just as long as Haley is. So, we can presume that the Cloister has worn off due to the Scrying Eye seeing Mr. Scruffy.

[B. Dandelion]

Pretty sure it's Xykon who was refreshing the spell every other week or so. Can't find the reference right now.

709, panel seven.

[Unisus]

But - didn't Haley actually say something about being Half-Dragon?

And really - what is the simpler choice: Haley and Ian being from some family absolutely not connected to the Draketooths but with the exact same traits (paranoia, red hair), or the two just succeeding in their saving throws?

[Alaris]

I don't think so. It seems that epic magic can get through the cloister and Familicide is an epic spell.

True... also, V's birds being able to find them means that lower level, non-divination-specific spells can bypass it. My argument is invalid.

[Kish]

But - didn't Haley actually say something about being Half-Dragon?

And really - what is the simpler choice: Haley and Ian being from some family absolutely not connected to the Draketooths but with the exact same traits (paranoia, red hair), or the two just succeeding in their saving throws?

...against a spell that doesn't give a saving throw?

[VanaGalen]

Wow, the Giant's comment on how Familicide works surprised me a bit. I always imagined the spell was going in iterations starting from the Black Dragon Mother and going on until there was nobody to kill.

I like the idea how the Cloister spell could've shielded Haley by making her invisible to V/Haera's spell. However, I suppose Girard's anti-scrying shield was more or less just as effective as Dorukan's. So if Haley was protected, Draketooths shouldn't had been affected as well.
I also can't imagine how some lousy empire in the middle of nowhere could afford epic-level antimagic fields in regular prison cells.

As for the Draketooths' facial markings, I believe they're tattoos. Children don't have them as far as we can see and when characters talk about the markings, they usually call them "tattoos".

As for Haley's comment "I may not be exactly what you would call...", certainly "human" is one possible ending. Still, Haley might not be 100% human but there are endless possibilities of her non-human ancestry - it doesn't mean she's half-dragon. And even if she had some dragon ancestors, not every half-dragon person is related to the Black Dragon Mom.
Also, there are many other possible endings to that sentence:
- "good person" - at that point the OotS didn't know about Crystal and other gray areas of Haley's past
- "rogue" - it could mean she multiclassed in secret and nobody knows about it
- "straight person" - explained by some hidden aspects of Haley's personality
Actually, that part of the comic always puzzled me. Do you know if the Giant has made any statement about this unfinished sentence?

Anyway, it would be pretty neat if Haley was related to Draketooths, but I don't think she's part of the family any more than other redheads in the comic. There is quite a few of them: Pompey, Loki, some of the bandits, inn employees, even Belkar's hair is sort of reddish - are they all Draketooths?

[Bulldog Psion]

Ian would be dead regardless of Cloister's effectiveness or ineffectiveness at stopping Familicide.

Case closed, IMO.

[Rogar Demonblud]

In theory, I suppose Haley could be related to the Draketooths through her mother (if Mia had a fling with a Draketooth that resulted in baby), since Mia is dead and Rich said that Category 2's are protected by a dead relative breaking the circuit.

In reality, unless and until Rich officially declares Haley related to the dead'uns, I'm firmly in the no dice camp.

[Snails]

Is there any logical reason to belief Haley is more likely to be a Draketooth than Roy or Elan?

Roy is a better candidate because we are not sure if his sister is still among the living.

Elan is a better candidate because of the awesome Charisma running in the family, and Tarquin might have the resources to formulate some kind of protection.

As far as the Cloister spell protecting against the Familicide spell successfully "tracking" familial lines, it has already been established that Clan Draketooth is very strong in that suit, and such efforts seems to have done no good.

[denthor]

Haley was not a Draketooth or she would be dead.

Haley is clearly Chaotic Good(ish) That means she could not be the spawn of a Black Dragon.

She could have been any of the metallic Dragons my guess Copper.

Lawful good: Silver and Gold

Chaotic Good: Brass, Copper

[Dr.Epic]

She's secretly undead.

Well I just lost all respect for Elan.

[Kish]

...I should be less surprised that someone just posted that none of the descendents of a black dragon can ever be good than I am.