Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[Kish]

I...think most DMs would call it really abusive to create a nonepic ring that, by using a spell from a non-core sourcebook, exactly duplicates the effects of a core epic ring.

[Mage Paradox]

Yeh, that is what I thought also. You claimed it was Core, but it apparently isn't. This is what I was talking about. There is no core item that would allow him immunity from fire, and when in doubt Core should be assumed. Which means it must be an Epic Ring of Fire Immunity.

There's also the fact that Xykon forged it himself, and Energy Immunity is a level 7 spell. Xykon only gets 3 of those, and we already know what they are (Greater Teleport, Finger of Death & Mass Hold Person), so he can't have done it this way. Technically forcecage would be the 4th, but it's a homebrewed crap version only it seems.

[JFMS]

For me it depends in the campaign. If I’m DMing and I say that only spells found in the player’s handbook are valid, I will only accept the epic ring.
But if I let my players use the Complete Arcane book, then I have no problems with this item.

[Mage Paradox]

Xykon lacks the spell to forge it himself though...

Ergo for him to forge it himself, it'd have to be an Epic Ring of Fire Immunity (which he could do with a mere level 3 spell, which he has slots for still). Thus we should review his level upwards accordingly. Anyone want to do the calculation for how many levels he'd need to gain the feats to craft said item?

PS- we should also add "Protection From Energy" to Xykon's presumed spell list.

[JFMS]

It’s not core, but it’s raw.
When creating a magic item, he can use spell completion (scrolls) or spell trigger items or even another caster.
Although in this manner he would have used 98 scrolls… but it’s a level 6 spell for clerics, so maybe Redcloak cast the spell during the craft process.

[mawexzon]

Complete Arcane is one of the sourcebooks used in OOTS-world, so it's equally possible to be both options.
Also: That list O-Chul made isn't necessarily the full list.

[Mage Paradox]

It’s not core, but it’s raw.
When creating a magic item, he can use spell completion (scrolls) or spell trigger items or even another caster.
Although in this manner he would have used 98 scrolls… but it’s a level 6 spell for clerics, so maybe Redcloak cast the spell during the craft process.

He says he forged it himself. And we should use the simplest explanation, ala Occam's Razor, not the most far fetched (that he used 98 scrolls). I don't think Redcloak has that spell either btw. Occam's Razor also applies to O'Chul's list not being the full list. Xykon should only have 3 level 7 spells, so we should apply Occam's Razor and assume he has no more.

I really think the evidence it's an Epic Item of Fire Immunity is astonishingly clear.

[TRH]

Keep in mind, we're still not exactly sure what level Xykon is, so asserting that he "can't" have more than X spells that have all been seen so far seems like a pretty hard sell to me. He could have the Spell Knowledge feat for all we know. According to SRD, he could have it more than once, even.

[Emanick]

He says he forged it himself. And we should use the simplest explanation, ala Occam's Razor, not the most far fetched (that he used 98 scrolls). I don't think Redcloak has that spell either btw. Occam's Razor also applies to O'Chul's list not being the full list. Xykon should only have 3 level 7 spells, so we should apply Occam's Razor and assume he has no more.

I really think the evidence it's an Epic Item of Fire Immunity is astonishingly clear.

Xykon buying a bunch of scrolls in some extraplanar market so that he can craft himself an awesome new ring sounds a lot more plausible to me than him being level 32+, five levels higher than all other evidence indicates him to be. Consider how ridiculous his estimate of Roy's level becomes if he's level 30+. His speech to the fighter on the dragon then becomes "you're just not playing in my league right now, because you're, what, level 25? 24? Lower? Come back when you're level 30+, and we'll have another tussle."

Can you really read that speech and tell me that it's plausible? Because that's basically what our favorite lich sorcerer said if he's actually level 32.

[Mage Paradox]

Well this thread claims Xykon hasn't proven he's level 27 yet, so we wouldn't be elevating him to level 32 by giving him said feat. Given how long Xykon has lived, and the increasingly large number of fights he seems to get into (and how high a level he was 50 years ago) it's actually not that implausible he'd be 32+, it certainly seems more likely that using dubious methods and 98 scrolls of a non-core spell to forge an item, rather than the most straightforward and likely way to forge it.

[JFMS]

Use 98 scrolls is strange, but I presented a more plausible explanation, that he ordered Redcloak to cast the spell for him. In this way, he can still be the crafter. According to SRD:

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

Or he bought 2 wands staffs and used almost all charges to craft the item.

The thing is, there are multiple explanations for the fire immunity, so we can’t use this to determine Xykon level.

[Emanick]

Well this thread claims Xykon hasn't proven he's level 27 yet, so we wouldn't be elevating him to level 32 by giving him said feat. Given how long Xykon has lived, and the increasingly large number of fights he seems to get into (and how high a level he was 50 years ago) it's actually not that implausible he'd be 32+, it certainly seems more likely that using dubious methods and 98 scrolls of a non-core spell to forge an item, rather than the most straightforward and likely way to forge it.

We totally would, since the feat requires you to be level 32 to take. And we have no idea how high level Xykon was 50 years ago, which is well before he met Redcloak. We don't even have evidence that he was epic until a couple years ago, when he took on Dorukan. And since we've seen him defeat only four opponents that could have given a level 28+ character XP (Lirian, Dorukan, the silver dragon in a NCftPB book scene and Darth V), I really am not seeing the in-comic evidence for such a scenario.

Actually, we have excellent evidence that Xykon is no higher than level 27, or at least that he wasn't that high when he faced off against that silver dragon in NCftPB. Ancient silver dragons have SR 29, and the dragon's SR defeats Xykon's Meteor Swarm. Since a caster level 28 sorcerer would automatically bypass said resistance, Xykon could not have been that high when he faced off against the monster.

@ JFMS: I totally agree, although I personally think it's unlikely that Xykon would have relied on Redcloak to make such an item if he had a choice (which he probably did, since I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to find said scrolls in an interplanar market). Since wands can't cast spells higher than 4th level, he couldn't have used one of them, but he could have relied on staves instead. So your point about utility stands.

[Mage Paradox]

You can create multiple scenarios for everything. I could come up with elaborate explanations to negate almost all the estimates given here. The question is how likely they are. We should go with the most likely explanation, not the least likely. And we don't even know if Redcloak has that spell.

I forgot the Silver Dragon's SR... do we know for sure it was SR stopping the spell? It's been a while since I read it.

As for Xykon, he was at least level 18 if I recall (in 1156), and that was 28+ years ago. Given all the stuff he's gotten up to since then, it's hardly a stretch that he is up to 32 now.

[rodneyAnonymous]

As for Xykon, he was at least level 18 if I recall (in 1156), and that was 28+ years ago. Given all the stuff he's gotten up to since then, it's hardly a stretch that he is up to 32 now.

That's a huge stretch. What would he kill to get that exp? It would take a lot more than four victories to get 30+.

Most characters, even high-level parties, plateau around level 20. In D&D, a character that is level 20-30 is very powerful.

[SaintRidley]

I don't think Redcloak has that spell either btw.

Just pointing out that the way Clerics work, if the book is in play and the spell is listed for Clerics, Redcloak has it.

[Emanick]

You can create multiple scenarios for everything. I could come up with elaborate explanations to negate almost all the estimates given here. The question is how likely they are. We should go with the most likely explanation, not the least likely. And we don't even know if Redcloak has that spell.

I forgot the Silver Dragon's SR... do we know for sure it was SR stopping the spell? It's been a while since I read it.

As for Xykon, he was at least level 18 if I recall (in 1156), and that was 28+ years ago. Given all the stuff he's gotten up to since then, it's hardly a stretch that he is up to 32 now.

Xykon's Meteor Swarm vanishes as it gets within a couple feet of the dragon, and Xykon says "Um... that's some serious spell resistance he's got there," IIRC.

It's certainly possible that the dragon has some magical item that boosts his spell resistance. As you said, almost everything is possible. But it's not likely, and frankly, given the amount of time, wealth and XP he has at his disposal, I'd say it's more likely that Xykon has an item that boosts his ability to overcome SR than that the silver dragon has an item that boosts his own SR.

[Living Oxymoron]

I'm totally against giving Forge Epic Ring to Xykon, not because it would set his level so high, but because we don't even know what kind of item is that. He just says it is a magic item. And I don't buy that "core or non-core" argument. OotS has been showing many things of several supplements and not admitting that Xykon takes advantage from the malleability that the system offers would be like ignoring part of the system itself.

Now, if we're going to discuss if it is necessary to be epic to make that kind of item, my opinion is that: it is possible to make a nonepic item that grants immunity to fire? Yes, it is. But this effect is epic? I think so.

[Mage Paradox]

I'm not going to bother getting into most of this, except to note that there are multiple saves in that fight sequence. I'd also note that I'm pretty sure Xykon had a heck of alot more than "4 encounters" in 28 years since he became a Lich. It'd be bizarre if he was still only level 21, given 28 years ago he would have been 18 or so.

MAJOR EDIT- Excuse me, I just realised Xykon would have been at least level 18 when he fought Lirian as a human, because he tries to cast energy drain on her. However becoming a Lich gives you +4 level adjustment as part of the process, so he'd be 22nd level when he fights Lirian the 2nd time (and has soul bind). This means we can now adjust Xykon to 22+ at least (which was his level 28 years ago). Personally I think if we can use calculations to bump Roy up to 13, we should be able to do the math and admit Xykon has grown at least a few levels since then (and I mean honestly, if he was 22+ over 28 years ago, it's easy to believe he's 27+ now).

Redcloak was I think 10th level at the time I think, because he couldn't cast Heal. So If Redcloak (who was less active in that time) is now at least 7 levels higher, it should be easy to infer something about Xykon's level.

[Emanick]

I'm not going to bother getting into most of this, except to note that there are multiple saves in that fight sequence. I'd also note that I'm pretty sure Xykon had a heck of alot more than "4 encounters" in 28 years since he became a Lich. It'd be bizarre if he was still only level 21, given 28 years ago he would have been 18 or so.

Oh yeah, I think we can all agree that Xykon has had well over 4 encounters in the last 28 years. I also agree that Xykon is probably higher than level 21. But we've only seen four encounters that would have given him XP if he was over level 27, because level 28+ characters only get XP from winning encounters with other epic characters. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more, but I WOULD be surprised to hear that there were well over a hundred of them, which is what it would take for him to get to level 32 if the average encounter he had was, say, EL 23.

I guess it's possible that Xykon spent years going around the multiverse finding and killing epic monsters, but it's hard to picture him doing that, and even harder to see him picking fights with THAT many epic beasts and living to tell the tale. X is smarter than most people think he is, but he's no tactical genius, and sooner or later that would catch up to him. His boneheaded (pardon the pun) approach to fighting Soon is proof enough that he tends to struggle in the kind of level-appropriate encounter an epic adventurer should run into all the time.

[Mage Paradox]

See my Edit. Xykon's level now needs to be adjusted.

[Emanick]

See my Edit. Xykon's level now needs to be adjusted.

The level adjustment that comes from being a lich increases your ECL, not your actual level. Assuming Xykon was level 18 at the time (I actually think of him as having been somewhat higher), he didn't become a 22nd level sorcerer upon undeath; he simply became about as powerful as one. So the first post doesn't need to be changed, as it doesn't track ECL to begin with. I wouldn't mind if it did, but we'd probably have to vote on that or something, I dunno.

Also, it would have been a lot easier for Redcloak to level from 10 to 17 then for Xykon to level, say, from 20 to 27, since D&D is designed to bring lower-level characters up to speed with higher-level characters in the same party, and it's incredibly hard to find level-appropriate encounters once you're already epic. (Well, not when you're playing a campaign, of course. But it goes without saying that OOTSverse isn't a campaign.)

[rodneyAnonymous]

Time elapsed doesn't matter for level progression. A character could easily go 28 years without gaining any levels. Especially if they are already high level.

[Mage Paradox]

In which case Xykon is level 19 as of 28 years ago. Given the number of chances to gain XP we're led to believe Xykon has had (and the fact they live in a world where you can get XP for telling a sad story) it would be strange indeed if he had only gained 2 levels in that time.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Sure, 5 or 6. But 13+? Probably not. Leveling in D&D just doesn't work like that, it flattens out. Mid 20s characters (with a +4 level adjustment no less!) don't get experience from that many things.

[RMS Oceanic]

Oh, the forums are back. Yay!

Added Z's Planar Binding. Is there anything else in my domain I missed?

Living Oxymoron has it right as to why Xykon doesn't have Forge Epic Ring: There's nothing about immunity to fire damage that requires it to be on a ring. It could be an amulet or his belt or cape.

Sure, 5 or 6. But 13+? Probably not. Leveling in D&D just doesn't work like that, it flattens out. Mid 20s characters (with a +4 level adjustment no less!) don't get experience from that many things.

Well there's your problem. Always remember this is a story that uses D&D mechanics rather than a full D&D game. We already have a system where by having a nemesis you gain XP while literally doing nothing. My personal opinion is that Xykon gets a plot bonus to XP and certainly pays less attention to how he levels up than we do.

[Emanick]

I'd like to formally propose that Xykon's level range be capped at 28, since by RAW there is no way he could have failed to overcome the silver dragon's SR at a level higher than 27, and it is virtually impossible that he could have gained more than one level in the meantime. Unless he spent tons of time fighting epic opponents off-screen in Azure City - at a rate fast enough to more than pay for the magic items he crafted, I might add - he only defeated one epic character in the meantime, and probably didn't get a story award for doing anything besides capturing Azure City.

[Mage Paradox]

Except a core item forged by Xykon himself would require him to be level 32. I'm baffled why there is this resistence to listing Xykon as more than 21, when everyone agrees he is clearly higher than 21. Can't we do some calculations and get it a bit more precise? For instance, "21+, but no higher than level 28 as of issue X" (in order for the Ancient Silver Dragon's spell resistence to have worked).

[Mage Paradox]

I'd like to formally propose that Xykon's level range be capped at 28, since by RAW there is no way he could have failed to overcome the silver dragon's SR at a level lower than 27, and it is virtually impossible that he could have gained more than one level in the meantime. Unless he spent tons of time fighting epic opponents off-screen in Azure City - at a rate fast enough to more than pay for the magic items he crafted, I might add - he only defeated one epic character in the meantime, and probably didn't get a story award for doing anything besides capturing Azure City.

I agree, let's at least mention it, and say "no higher than 28 as of issue X". At least it would be more precise. 21+ is so unsatisfactory, because all the evidence says he's clearly over 21 (given he was at least 19+ over 28 years ago, before he beat Lirian, beat Dorukan, got XP for the events of the throne room, got XP for an Ancient Silver Dragon, Darth V, and a bunch of other things besides).

[Mage Paradox]

And could this post please be responded to by the other thread manager:

As I and others have said, the reference to V being capped at level 15 should be removed (along with the "same level as Z" reference) owing to lack of evidence (and standard of that evidence falling short of what is asked for regarding other characters). I expect this to be ignored as usual, but it shouldn't be. Both logic (and consensus) speak strongly towards changing it.

If V and Z had their levels linked, I would expect V to be 17th level, not 15th.

'Offhand remark that might make them the same level, possibly' does not seem like evidence of anything.

I agree. This evil opposite evidence is so strange that Elan's character level was never modified after we knew that Nale is 15. At least, Elan should be listed as Bard 13/Dashing Swordsman 2, if we follow this method.

And about Xykon's level, I totally agree with you too.

Mage Paradox is making a good point about the linked comic. The statement is "If we are the same level." That means not even V thinks that they are the same level for sure.

For whatever it's worth, I agree that Vaarsuvius should be listed as level 15+, not level 15, and disagree that Tarquin should be listed with an epic ring of fire immunity (what is with people wanting to list Tarquin as having all sorts of funky rings?).

That said, is there anyone here who's particularly averse to adding a plus sign after V's level? It doesn't change a heck of a lot.

I don't think we can figure out Protagonist levels with the whole rivals thing.
We know that rivals are at least the same level, If not higher, This comes from Haley, who is a protagonist/hero; This can mean that while the antagonist/villain rival is always at least the same level as the protagonist/hero one, but the same is not necessarily true for the protagonist/hero, As the antagonist/villain rival can be of higher level, As such, that means while we can figure out a minimal level for the antagonist/villain rivals, we can't figure out the protagonist/hero one.

I think the Linear Guild were intended as the Evil Opposites and original rivals of the Order, and that would suggest comparable power levels. But that is way too vague to be of evidencial use on this thread, I'm sure. As for Z and V specifically; it is kind of like Haley and Crystal, in as much as Z (Crystal) spends a lot of effort and time thinking about killing V (Haley), whereas V (Haley) hardly gives Z (Crystal) a second thought unless they are actually in panel.

[Emanick]

Except a core item forged by Xykon himself would require him to be level 32. I'm baffled why there is this resistence to listing Xykon as more than 21, when everyone agrees he is clearly higher than 21. Can't we do some calculations and get it a bit more precise? For instance, "21+, but no higher than level 28 as of issue X" (in order for the Ancient Silver Dragon's spell resistence to have worked).

The thing is, though, that the core rules allow you to design your own item to craft, and there's nothing stopping Xykon from creating a wondrous item that does the same thing as the epic ring. It's one thing to confine ourselves to RAW-described feats and classes; it's quite another to assume that Xykon, upon deciding at level 23 that he wants an item that makes him immune to fire, decides that rather than crafting a Gauntlet of Fire Immunity - something within his power to do - he's going to wait nine levels in order to make something that does the exact same thing, but with the advantage of being within the SRD and thus being "canon."