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2013-07-22, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.
Silent member of Zz'dtri's #698 Scrying Sensor Explanation Club.
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2013-07-22, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
"And besides, these are themes I will explore in the forthcoming Therkla Kickstarter story."
[ETA: When the knives are out for you in Ninja School, it isn't just a metaphor!]
Possibly?
As for Neutral. Yeah. That word is going helluva heavy duty in D+D to try an encompass a whole range of Not Good But Not Evil behaviours and morals.Last edited by sam79; 2013-07-22 at 12:32 PM.
The prison was full of British officers who had sworn to die, rather than be captured.
Avatar by Rich Burlew: The Giant Stuck It To Me!
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2013-07-22, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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2013-07-22, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
: But you can't make an omelette without ruthlessly crushing dozens of eggs beneath your steel boot and then publicly disemboweling the chickens that laid them as a warning to others.
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2013-07-22, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2013-07-22 at 12:04 PM. Reason: not sure about my analysis of this statement
The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2013-07-22, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Who are the evil people that you're thinking of, whom the Oracle hangs around? Fellow Kobolds, or Tiamat herself?
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2013-07-22, 12:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
And Vaarsuivius a counter example who helps toward Good goals without being invested in them?
Mostly we've seen the Oracle interact with Good characters; his neutrality appears to be that he uses his powers to "help" any customers who can pay. Apart from Xykon, who's frickin' scary.
ETA:
Ninja'd for my second paragraph. Curse my verbosity!Last edited by sam79; 2013-07-22 at 12:12 PM.
The prison was full of British officers who had sworn to die, rather than be captured.
Avatar by Rich Burlew: The Giant Stuck It To Me!
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2013-07-22, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
As far as V is concerned. Yes. Until recently, Vaarsuvius was not terribly invested or concerned about morality.
As far as the Oracle is concerned. I was thinking about Mama Black Dragon and Tiamat herself, both of whom the Oracle gives a great deal of respect. Contrast this to the OOTS, whom the Oracle obviously dislikes (albeit with good reasons having nothing to do with alignment).Last edited by Reddish Mage; 2013-07-22 at 01:57 PM. Reason: WHOM!!!
The laws of physics are not crying in a corner, they are bawling in the forums.
Thanks to half-halfling for the avatar
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2013-07-22, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
I don't know if you've heard of this fellow named Xykon, but he's perfectly happy preserving the universe, so I guess that means he's good. Heck, he's even following a plan that will unite the world under him--he must be lawful! Therefore, Xykon is lawful good. QED.
Or not, and that's proof by contradiction that "trying to preserve the universe" implies neither goodness or lawfulness.
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2013-07-22, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
This? This argument here?
This is an example of how people see alignment as a straightjacket system, without realizing they're doing it.
It's pretty shaky ground to say almost any behavior, and conclude that a character who does it must be X Alignment. Personalities are complex, and nearly any behavior can fit under a number of alignments, depending on the other characteristics, demeanors, deeds, quirks, and behaviors of the character involved.
In fact, I'm not even sure the qualifying phrase "pretty much" is needed in the above statement. Even the most horrific, objectively-depraved crimes can probably be part of any evil alignment.You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
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I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2013-07-22, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...6#post15476516
I know I'm stealing this from someone else. But it's SO FUNNY
Zweisteine quoting Razanir:
"I am a human sixtyfourthling! Fear my minimal halfling ancestry!"
From: Razanir
Bagnold could be one sixty-fourth halfling.
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2013-07-22, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
I think the first paragraph was an argument that he's not Good, and the second an argument that he's not Lawful.
The deva points out that he's prevented from getting into Celestia until the Blood Oath is fulfilled - which may imply that, at least at the time of his first evaluation, he was LG, though he might possibly have changed since then.
We may have to wait and see. It's possible that Eugene is one of those The Giant chose not to give an alignment for- but it's also possible that he's still LG.Last edited by hamishspence; 2013-07-22 at 02:58 PM.
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2013-07-22, 03:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
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- Cambridge, Ma.
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
It may become a plot point. I do think Eugene is good, but we don't know what the neutral and chaotic good people get.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...6#post15476516
I know I'm stealing this from someone else. But it's SO FUNNY
Zweisteine quoting Razanir:
"I am a human sixtyfourthling! Fear my minimal halfling ancestry!"
From: Razanir
Bagnold could be one sixty-fourth halfling.
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2013-07-22, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
They're probably among the "dozen in-between" planes Roy mentions here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html
Valhalla was a name for Ysgard I think in 2nd ed (CG/CN), and Nirvana is part of the name of Mechanus (LN) in 3rd ed: "Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus".Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2013-07-22, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
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- Arad, Israel
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
There are spells in 3.X that allow a Cleric, Wizard, Paladin, etc., to detect Good (as well as Evil, Chaos and Law). Eugene was being interviewed by a Deva, beings who are always Good (Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic, depending on their function) in order to determine if he merited entering into Mt. Celestia, the Lawful Good afterlife. The only black marks on Eugene's record (other than not fulfilling his Blood Oath of Vengeance against Xykon) was foul language and editing his own Wikipedia article. All of this is found on the last page of Start of Darkness, one of the two prequel books. If you feel that Eugene wasn't Lawful Good, then maybe you misunderstand how the D&D Alignment system works. Eugene was a distant father to Roy, and he spoiled Julia rotten, but he was a Lawful Good person.
Spoilers for SoD:
SpoilerGo read the advice Eugene Greenhilt gave to Right-Eye in the tavern scene; please tell me that Eugene wasn't genuinely trying to give Right-Eye, a Goblin working for Eugene's hated enemy, good advice? Advice, I might add, that led to the best years of Right-Eye's life, before Xykon came calling. While True Neutral characters can definitely give good advice, I got the impression Eugene was acting more like a mentor or father figure to Right-Eye. While he was a bit oblivious and rude at first, Eugene did not cast a single spell until Right-Eye threatened him with his ax. And even so Eugene felt bad enough for Right-Eye to try and convince him to break away from Xykon and start a family.
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2013-07-22, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
I find that interesting, because I assumed Crystal was already Chaotic Evil, with Bozzok holding her leash and keeping her from slaughtering anyone she wanted to. It makes sense to me that Bozzok is Neutral Evil rather than Lawful Evil; he's organized and demands loyalty, but unlike Redcloak or Tarquin he never actually rewards loyalty or looks after the welfare of his followers. When Haley skipped town in OtOoPCs the Thieves' Guild was full of thieves like Hank, embezzling from the Guild because Bozzok took far more than his fair share of the loot.
It's possible that I misread Crystal's stupidity as a sign of her also being Chaotic, but she was so gleeful when Bozzok gave her the orders to kill Haley that she was skipping through town and singing! That's something the Joker or Deadpool would do!
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2013-07-22, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Characters acting as a control on the alignment of others, is interesting.
If Bozzok's holding Crystal to NE (with her natural inclination being to CE) - who else might be influencing another in similar ways?Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2013-07-22, 04:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
I think V does care about the goals to an extent, but is--or at least was, until recently--mostly interested in V's own power and, secondarily, V's personal attachments (like Inkyrius, Haley, etc.). But it's been a while now since V hit V's nadir and realized it was V's selfishness that caused it. I'm pretty sure V is on the way back up toward Good, though it may be a while.
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2013-07-22, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
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- Arad, Israel
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Who says Therkla was willing to kill innocent people? Who says she was even willing to kill any of Daimyo Kubota's enemies other than Lord Hinjo? I seem to remember her trying desperately to convince Daimyo Kubota not to order the murder of the Katos, as well as her assisting Elan, Durkon, Daigo and Lien to escape from Chief Grukgruk's angry tribe of Orcs (twice!).
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2013-07-22, 04:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- New Jersey
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
You can commit evil acts and still be Neutral. Some people might argue that the difference between True Neutral and Neutral Evil is that a TN assassin works for the money, it's just a job, and they don't really consider the "right or wrong" aspect of it, just as long as they get paid; whereas a NE might enjoy killing, go out of their way to make a victim suffer, and prefer killing innocents.
And if you counter by saying "But killing is wrong!" keep in mind that just about every Good-aligned character we've ever seen has killed people. Paladins kill sentient goblins because their boss tells them to. Miko tried to kill Roy and the rest of the OotS just because Shojo sent her after them. Hinjo tried to kill Redcloak at the docks, even though some people might argue that as an enforcer of law he should be trying to capture the enemy leader to put on trial for war crimes. It's all subjective.
And to further the points I made above, what's the difference between an assassin killing innocent people just because she was being paid, and a paladin killing innocent orcs just because he was being paid (a case brought up in On the Origin of PCs, where a paladin wanted to murder orcs who weren't hurting anyone and said explicitly he didn't even need to worry about alignment penalties for it).
Draz makes a very good point here. There is no way to say "anyone who does X must be alignment Y." People of ANY alignment kill other sentient creatures when it suits their purposes. There are, of course, some EXTREME cases where it's blatantly wrong to kill (i.e. striking down your defenseless liege). Barring such extreme cases, however, there is a TON of grey area in between, grey area where paladins and other good-aligned people murder sentient creatures all the time.
Here's an example: the Ogres. They were raiding, robbing, and kidnapping... but as far as Miko and the Order knew, the Ogres hadn't actually killed anyone. Yet instead of arresting them and bringing them in for trial, Miko proceeded to blatantly murder the entire tribe "just because they're evil." Is this really that different from what Therkla does?
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2013-07-22, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
O-chul and the Mitd? Elan bringing out the best in Haley? Sir Francois and Lord Hinjo keeping Elan's more Chaotic impulses in check? The problem is that other than the MitD, Haley and Elan's Alignment's didn't actually change, they simply expressed them in other ways. They were both already Chaotic Good, and never stopped being Chaotic Good, but Haley veered a bit closer to Neutrality due to her greed. Elan (and to a lesser extent Roy and Durkon) had a positive effect on Haley; she's still greedy, but she's not robbing banks and jewel vaults anymore.
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2013-07-22, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
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2013-07-22, 04:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
The Giant explained this pretty clearly though from what I read. She never disobeys an order simply because all the orders we've seen her get are exactly what she wants to do. The one time she hesitates at following one is CdGing Haley and, again, that fits the Giant's overarching philosophy of hers that "Bozzok knows best." Following his orders doesn't make her lawful any more than following Roy's orders does for Belkar or Elan.
And the counterpoint to your position - using the Giant's example of "if Haley became head of the GCTG, would Crystal follow her leadership?" I would be even more surprised than you are now if she were to do so. So I definitely agree that Crystal is NE, if not outright CE.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2013-07-22, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
I think the argument is that there are few things more evil than killing innocent people. In general, unless there are significant extenuating circumstances (and I can't think of any), if you're killing innocent people willfully, without being coerced to do so, on a regular basis, and are somehow not Evil under an alignment system, then that alignment system is broken. If that's not Evil, what is?
Kidnapping, robbing and raiding takes away that "innocence" status. Think of a hostage situation. There's a pretty solid argument for not calling a police officer who uses lethal force to subdue gangster kidnappers Evil. Miko even gave the kidnappers a chance to surrender.
You could say that this is a grey area, and I could accept that. But kidnappers and raiders are not on the same moral level as people who have done nothing to significantly harm anyone. I think that can be stated pretty fairly.
Paladin or not, killing someone on orders without evidence that they are far from innocent is generally Evil, IMO. If your superiors are trustworthy and have done their homework, that can be considered compelling evidence. If not, you're probably risking a Good, or even a Neutral (depending on circumstances) alignment.Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2013-07-22, 04:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Sounds about right. One of the things I liked about BoED, is that it went out of its way to state, at least once, that an Evil alignment is not, on its own, good enough reason for waging war on, for example, orcs- they have to be doing something to justify it on top of their alignment itself.
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2013-07-22, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
Well in strip 509 Kubota says that she has been his most trusted assassin for seven years. That strongly suggests that she was willing to kill whoever he told her to kill and in fact has done so in the past. (Now maybe Kubota only had her targetting rival evil aristocrats and crime bosses and the like and never had her target any innocent people, though given what we know of the man that seems unlikely.)
As for Durkon, Daigo, and Lien, Therkla was perfectly fine in strip 557 with letting them all be killed. She had to be talked out of it by Elan and only spared their lives to make Elan happy not because she had any moral objections to letting them be murdered on her command.
Originally Posted by Tock Zipporah
And if you counter by saying "But killing is wrong!" keep in mind that just about every Good-aligned character we've ever seen has killed people. Paladins kill sentient goblins because their boss tells them to. Miko tried to kill Roy and the rest of the OotS just because Shojo sent her after them. Hinjo tried to kill Redcloak at the docks, even though some people might argue that as an enforcer of law he should be trying to capture the enemy leader to put on trial for war crimes. It's all subjective.
And to further the points I made above, what's the difference between an assassin killing innocent people just because she was being paid, and a paladin killing innocent orcs just because he was being paid (a case brought up in On the Origin of PCs, where a paladin wanted to murder orcs who weren't hurting anyone and said explicitly he didn't even need to worry about alignment penalties for it).
There is no way to say "anyone who does X must be alignment Y." People of ANY alignment kill other sentient creatures when it suits their purposes. There are, of course, some EXTREME cases where it's blatantly wrong to kill (i.e. striking down your defenseless liege). Barring such extreme cases, however, there is a TON of grey area in between, grey area where paladins and other good-aligned people murder sentient creatures all the time.
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2013-07-22, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
We don't know who she assassinated prior to the sacking of Azure City by the Hobgoblin army. The Giant hasn't even bothered to flesh out that story, so there's no evidence one way or the other.
As for Durkon, Daigo, and Lien, Therkla was perfectly fine in strip 557 with letting them all be killed. She had to be talked out of it by Elan and only spared their lives to make Elan happy not because she had any moral objections to letting them be murdered on her command.
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2013-07-22, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-07-22, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No love for Neutral alignments in OOTS
I respectfully disagree. I don't think killing innocents makes you automatically an evil alignment. Killing innocents is an evil ACT, yes, but Neutral characters can commit some evil acts and still be Neutral. They can also commit Good acts without being Good. Therkla committed evil acts (killing innocents, working for an evil corrupt politician) and good acts (saving lives, protecting those she cared about, stopping the assassins that attacked Kazumi and Daigo). Some good and some evil = Neutral.
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2013-07-22, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007