Can you "force" people to read Explosive Runes?

[Duke of Urrel]

You're assuming that the explosive runes stand out of the text waving pom-poms saying "Look at me! I'm different than any other writing here!"

How so? Actually, in the example I gave, there was no other text. The Explosive Runes "stood out" from nothing except for the paper they were written on. The kobold noticed them simply by picking up the paper and looking at it.

So unless you mistyped and your kobold is a rogue and just made a DC 28 Search check, he's not going to notice there are explosive runes on the paper. To him, it's just ordinary text.

The Search DC of 28 is required not to activate Explosive Runes, but to identify them as a dangerous magical trap without activating them, which is, of course, much, much harder to do.

My scenario also didn't require the kobold to identify the Explosive Runes as such. She considered them only to be "magic runes," which anybody could have guessed. She avoided triggering them simply by failing to be interested enough in them to read them right now – which is the outcome of a strict interpretation of read-triggering which, in my opinion, nerfs the Explosive Runes spell too much.

[Hyde]

Personally, I treat it as a gaze attack.

[Deophaun]

How so? Actually, in the example I gave, there was no other text. The Explosive Runes "stood out" from nothing except for the paper they were written on. The kobold noticed them simply by picking up the paper and looking at it.

But he doesn't know that they are from an explosive runes spell or magical text at all.

The Search DC of 28 is required not to to activate Explosive Runes, but to identify them as a dangerous magical trap without activating them, which is, of course, much, much harder to do.

Magic traps such as explosive runes are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find the runes and Disable Device to thwart them. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 28 for explosive runes.

Let's do that again.

Magic traps such as explosive runes are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find the runes and Disable Device to thwart them. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 28 for explosive runes.

Magic traps such as explosive runes are hard to detect and disable. A rogue (only) can use the Search skill to find the runes and Disable Device to thwart them. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 28 for explosive runes.

I would have highlighted "without triggering them," but strangely it seems the SRD does not contain that information. It appears to be something you made up.

[Invader]

Why can't you just say if you read it from more than 10 feet away nothing happens, if you're within 10 feet and you read it, it activates.

[Duke of Urrel]

But he doesn't know that they are from an explosive runes spell or magical text at all.

The kobold in my example didn't have to know that the Explosive Runes were any kind of text in particular. My point was that although she looked at them, she was not interested enough to read them; and that this disinterest (according to an interpretation of read-triggering that I meant to criticize as inadequate) would prevent the kobold from actually reading the Runes, which would also stop her from triggering them. A disappointing result, surely, for the player who cast the Explosive Runes spell.

I would have highlighted "without triggering them," but strangely it seems the SRD does not contain that information. It appears to be something you made up.

Perhaps you or somebody else can explain to me why, if using Search skill as a rogue to detect Explosive Runes does not avoid triggering them, there is any point at all in trying to use Search skill to find magical traps. Because it would seem to me that that the whole point of searching for magical traps as a rogue is to find the traps before you trigger them. Detecting a magical trap after you trigger it, or even at the same time as you trigger it, seems to me to be of no use at all.

[Deophaun]

The kobold in my example didn't have to know that the Explosive Runes were any kind of text in particular. My point was that although she looked at them, she was not interested enough to read them; and that this disinterest (according to an interpretation of read-triggering that I meant to criticize as inadequate) would prevent the kobold from actually reading the Runes, which would also stop her from triggering them. A disappointing result, surely, for the player who cast the Explosive Runes spell.

Except your point was more than that, as you had the kobold in your example explicitly note that the writing was composed of magical runes:

"Hmmm. Magic Runes! Very interesting. I shall have to read them the next time I get the chance. But right now, I've got to track down those pesky adventurers."

If the kobold does not read the paper, then the kobold does not read the paper. You're treating it as though it was meant to be used like a fireball, when it's not. The fact that it's an abjuration spell should be a clue: it's designed to protect information by preventing it from falling into the wrong hands. While it can be weaponized, it requires actual effort to do so.

Perhaps you or somebody else can explain to me why, if using Search skill as a rogue to detect Explosive Runes does not avoid triggering them, there is any point at all in trying to use Search skill to find magical traps. Because it would seem to me that that the whole point of searching for magical traps as a rogue is to find the traps before you trigger them. Detecting a magical trap after you trigger it, or even at the same time as you trigger it, seems to me to be of no use at all.

Because your RAW interpretation is questionable. If you have to explicitly read the runes, there is no problem: You can Search as much as you want, even if you aren't a rogue, and never trigger the explosive runes. But with your interpretation, you need to acknowledge that there is nothing in the Search entry that prevents the runes from exploding. So, you need to ask yourself why you want trap finding to be useless.

[Sephoris]

Arguments of what it takes to read the runes aside, I think it's hard to argue that the runes should be legible from 10 feet. The main issue I have with that is this bit of text:

Anyone next to the runes (close enough to read them) takes the full damage with no saving throw; any other creature within 10 feet of the runes is entitled to a Reflex save for half damage.

Being close enough to read the runes means you get no save. Being within 10 feet means you get a Reflex save. If everyone within 10 feet is close enough to read, and therefore gets no save, there's no reason to describe a save they cannot possibly get.

[Duke of Urrel]

Except your point was more than that, as you had the kobold in your example explicitly note that the writing was composed of magical runes.

You've made this point before, but don't you see how trivial it is? It doesn't matter. I could have re-written my kobold scenario in any number of ways. I could have said that she assumed the Explosive Runes were magic runes, Draconic runes, Infernal runes, or any kind of letters whatsoever. All of that makes no difference at all. My point was that the kobold was able to look at these letters without reading them, purely out of disinterest. This disinterest saved her from the harmful consequences that I believe looking directly at Explosive Runes – at very close range – should have.

If the kobold does not read the paper, then the kobold does not read the paper. You're treating it as though it was meant to be used like a fireball, when it's not. The fact that it's an abjuration spell should be a clue: it's designed to protect information by preventing it from falling into the wrong hands. While it can be weaponized, it requires actual effort to do so.

I prefer to think that I'm treating Explosive Runes as a kind of read-triggered Blast Glyph. You will note that the Glyph of Warding spell also belongs to the Abjuration school. I don't believe it is "weaponization" to use Explosive Runes as a kind of barrier. For example, I believe it is highly appropriate to write Explosive Runes on a sign that one hangs from the door of one's laboratory, underneath the words "KEEP OUT. THIS MEANS YOU." If somebody comes too close to that sign and looks at the small print underneath the main message, it should explode. I don't think of that as "weaponization"; I think of that as a defensive booby trap.

I don't believe Explosive Runes are a very effective means of protecting information, unless this information is copied and stored elsewhere, because when they explode, they destroy the thing they are inscribed upon, including any message. The Illusory Script spell is a better means of protecting a temporary message, such as a letter, while the Sepia Snake Sigil spell is a better means of protecting a permanent message, such as a spelltext or a magic scroll.

You can Search as much as you want, even if you aren't a rogue, and never trigger the explosive runes. But with your interpretation, you need to acknowledge that there is nothing in the Search entry that prevents the runes from exploding. So, you need to ask yourself why you want trap finding to be useless.

I am beginning to see what you may have meant by bringing up rogues and Search checks, which I'll confess confused me at first. I do in fact believe that making Search checks in the area around Explosive Runes is a good way to trigger them inadvertently, because searching involves looking at things closely, and that should be a dangerous thing to do around Explosive Runes. But this doesn't apply to rogues with the Trapfinding ability. You don't trigger Explosive Runes by identifying them. You trigger them by failing to identify them and looking too closely at them, not realizing that this is a bad idea. In other words (to sum up):

1. Ignorance doesn't, or shouldn't, protect you from Explosive Runes – unless it is total, as in the case of illiterates, who don't ascribe meaning to any text they see, because they have never acquired this learned habit.

2. Literate people, on the other hand, habitually ascribe some meaning to anything that looks like letters to them. As I have argued above, literate people cannot choose to suppress this habit, which means that when they look at Explosive Runes too closely, they should (unlike the kobold in my example) trigger an explosion, even if they aren't "trying" to read at all. The only question that remains in my mind is this: What amount of looking, at what range, should count as reading something inadvertently?

3. Finally, there are rogues, whose training enables them to detect magical traps from a safe distance, so that if they make a Search check that is good enough, they don't make the mistake of looking closely enough at Explosive Runes to trigger them.

At an earlier point in this thread – when I suggested that making a Spot check or a Search check near Explosive Runes should mean that a literate creature inadvertently reads them – I think you were right to object that a successful Spot or Search check should not trigger a magical trap. Thanks to you, I withdrew my suggestion and have since tried to replace it with another rule. But why are you trying to make the opposite point now? Why are you now trying to argue that a successful Search check, at a very high DC, should trigger Explosive Runes? This does not follow with any necessity from any of the proposals that I have made more recently, all of which have relied on readability range, not on the outcomes of skill checks.

[Deophaun]

You've made this point before, but don't you see how trivial it is? It doesn't matter. I could have re-written my kobold scenario in any number of ways. I could have said that she assumed the Explosive Runes were magic runes, Draconic runes, Infernal runes, or any kind of letters whatsoever.

I disagree. If you know that you are dealing with magic, then you are likely to use detect magic (DC 23 Spellcraft check to identify as explosive runes; which honestly is easy to hit) or suspect a trap. If it is normal writing, then there's no additional grounds for suspicion. That's what I was objecting to in your example: you were giving the kobold an additional reason to suspect a trap or take measures that would have identified the note's true nature for free.

But if that was accidental and not intended, I will let it drop.

My point was that the kobold was able to look at these letters without reading them, purely out of disinterest.

And I do not see why that is a problem.

For example, I believe it is highly appropriate to write Explosive Runes on a sign that one hangs from the door of one's laboratory, underneath the words "KEEP OUT. THIS MEANS YOU." If somebody comes too close to that sign and looks at the small print underneath the main message, it should explode.

This is not what you've been saying. You've stated that merely being next to the explosive runes is enough to trigger them. No conscious effort to look at them required.

But you're argument here is "because under my interpretation explosive runes can still be used defensively, that means that it's still hard to weaponize." This is a non sequitur.

I don't believe Explosive Runes are a very effective means of protecting information, unless this information is copied and stored elsewhere, because when they explode, they destroy the thing they are inscribed upon, including any message.

I said "preventing it from falling into the wrong hands." You put explosive rune on your confidential message to your contact. If someone reads it who you do not designate, the culprit might be killed (and if he's not, the injuries from the blast may raise suspicions) and your message is safely removed from the hands of spies. Illusory script, on the other hand, is security through obscurity, which isn't that secure when your opponents have the message in their possession (and saves can be made). It's more a delaying tactic than anything else.

But why are you trying to make the opposite point now? Why are you now trying to argue that a successful Search check, at a very high DC, should trigger Explosive Runes? This does not follow with any necessity from any of the proposals that I have made more recently, all of which have relied on readability range, not on the outcomes of skill checks.

My argument is not that a high Search check should trigger the runes. That's a normative statement which I disagree with. It's that your changes have made it so that a Search check does trigger them. It's a consequence of not allowing players to say what their characters are or are not reading, and calls into further question your interpretation of how explosive runes work. If that was truly how the game worked, it would deserve to be in the dysfunctional rules thread.

[Emmerask]

Can you, really? Because I've tried flinging a magazine around with some pretty big text on the cover, and I can't reliably read it as it's flying through the air. And when it lands, there's no guarantee that it'll have an orientation so that the thrower can read it then.

Yep pretty much this.
Knowing what is written on the paper and reciting it is not the same as actually reading it, so the throw thing is highly unlikely to work reliably or even the majority of times.

My general stance though is seeing that casters and especially wizards are more then powerful enough, anything that is open for interpretation will be interpreted in the least favorable way for casters... and then they are still complete and utterly op

[aleucard]

My responses are bolded.

Who, exactly? Would it be better if we used fiendish scorpions instead, or are the evil analogues of your "last people the PCs want to get on the wrong side of" known for their concern over the well being of their cannon-fodder (or, rather, unaffiliated cannon-fodder that just happens to inhabit the same general area)?

Good and (to a lesser degree) Neutral summons are liable to have people actually give a **** about their underlings/grunts/goons/etc., so them being misused for perceived stupidity like this would draw ire from them. Obviously most Evil people aren't going to give a ****; if they're CE, they might find it funny as Hell, and actually like being used that way. It's the sheer 'Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog' -ness that would do it, really. NE or LE wouldn't much care, as said, though having a goon space out (best understanding of what being 'summoned is like for the summon is them daydreaming in their home-plane while summoned) while it's doing something they find important and it coming back with this would probably not go over too well (and be rare, so only if the tactic is abused or after a long time of it).

I'm rather curious as to what entity, with all the other stuff that often happens in a D&D campaign, is going to drop anything to hunt someone who is minorly inconveniencing celestial monkeys in this way. Slow day in Astral plane?

Outsiders, being the Immortal beings they are (or so absurdly long-aged that for us they may as well be) are probably able to take a day to deal with a comparatively minor irritation if it bugs them enough, though this runs headlong into the thing above. They have a lot of time on their hands, and not every second of it is vital.

But, more to the point, there's nothing in the spell that allows them to disobey.

True, but this is short-sighted; my concerns are for if someone takes offense and acts outside of being Summoned. If a summon can remember what they did while summoned, they could be motivated to get retribution (or complain to whichever boss authorized them to be on the summon list) if they don't like it. While a Neutral character could summon a Good monster and have them do evil acts, the summon is going to be the kind of pissed that legends are generated from; not to mention what'll happen if that particular story spreads around whichever realm that summon normally resides in.

Since monsters summoned through Summon Monster X do not die, there is no such thing as a suicidal order. So, this is an easy agreement to stick to.

While true, nobody likes being taken away from their day to do stupid **** that demeans their very existence. This is minor, yeah, but depending on how much rod a certain summon has shoved up their tailhole, it could become Smite worthy if done too often, or at least some form of personal reprimand.

[Deophaun]

My responses are bolded.

My responses are actually typed to make quoting them less of a pain.

Obviously most Evil people aren't going to give a ****; if they're CE, they might find it funny as Hell, and actually like being used that way.

So the objection is to a celestial monkey being used that way, not a fiendish scorpion. So the spell can do exactly what it does, but if the player doesn't read your mind as to what particular summon is appropriate for that task, well, then we get to screw with him.

Outsiders, being the Immortal beings they are (or so absurdly long-aged that for us they may as well be) are probably able to take a day to deal with a comparatively minor irritation if it bugs them enough, though this runs headlong into the thing above. They have a lot of time on their hands, and not every second of it is vital.

First of all, they need to be powerful enough to planeshift. Does that read like someone that's going to busy their hands with a few celestial monkeys occasionally taking the day off for explosive runes duty? And they're going to go after a wizard. I guess planeshift and a low Int score are now on the list of requirements that includes "has underlings that are no more than the outer planes' equivalent of wildlife" and "has nothing better to do." This is not sounding at all like "the last people the PCs want to get on the wrong side of." Sounds like a future target of planar binding.

If a summon can remember what they did while summoned, they could be motivated to get retribution (or complain to whichever boss authorized them to be on the summon list) if they don't like it.

So now the celestial monkey himself is going to exact revenge upon the (at least) fifth level wizard. I hope he prepared prestidigitation that day, because the poo will be flying!

And this is also now assuming that there's some bureaucracy involved in regulating summons, marking Bobo as summonable but Chimchim as off-limits.

Furthermore, this entire line of argumentation relies on the idea that you're summoning the same creature over and over again, which is not how summon monster works by default. It's random. If you summon a hundred celestial monkeys it's unlikely that any two of them have even met, let alone that it causes enough disruption in any environment for anyone of any import to take note.

While true, nobody likes being taken away from their day to do stupid **** that demeans their very existence.

It doesn't so much as demean the celestial monkey's existence, so much as fulfill it. Without the ability to be summoned to set off traps, retrieve objects from dangerous situations, and all and all be a party's guinea pig, the Celestial Monkey would languish in obscurity in the MM and do nothing more legendary than eat celestial bananas.

[Rijan_Sai]

While I'm a couple of days late on this, I do have a couple of thoughts:

On Summon Monster) While not specifically RAW, we always play SM's as though they are basically Astral Projections, essentially real while there, as soon as they are killed/dispelled/out of time, they return to their plane completely unharmed. (Their body is prorected by the eqivalent of Resilient Sphere while summoned.) This applies to other Summon X spells, as well.

On Explosive Runes)

..BB
BAAB
BAAB
..BB
.
^This is the 10' radius range for spells. (I assume that, for consistancy sake, they use the same range for the "within 10 feet" part of the spell.)

That being the case, anyone in the "A" range gets no save, while anyone it the "B" range does.

As for reading, I agree that there should be more effort then a casual glance, but not much. Going to the Kobold example above, that much looking at the paper would most certainly let her know that there were magical runes, as they exploded in her face.
...
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Sadly, I've completely lost my train of thought...I had more to say about Rune Reading...

[Segev]

1) For the OP: Unseen Servants expressly can perform any task that does not require a skill check higher than DC 10. Reading presumably doesn't; I'm fairly sure you could even have them follow written instructions of a simple sort (like "put these files in the 'in' box"). Therefore, instruct your Unseen Servants to carry the folded piece of paper up to within 5 ft. of your target, and then to open it and read it.

2) Regarding "searching and detecting" the runes. Does the fact that the spell doesn't specify that rogues do not detonate them, and therefore "obviously" they set them off if they read them, mean that non-rogues can't even set them off because they can't find them at all in order to read them?

[strider24seven]

I had a fun build idea involving Explosive Runes, and I wanted to know if Explosive Runes must be read if the runes are in line of sight and proper range of the other person. And if so, are there any checks or saves a person can make to not read the runes aside from a Search Check made by a rogue.

I'd just like to point out that everything becomes a little easier with a little Mindrape...

[Deophaun]

2) Regarding "searching and detecting" the runes. Does the fact that the spell doesn't specify that rogues do not detonate them, and therefore "obviously" they set them off if they read them, mean that non-rogues can't even set them off because they can't find them at all in order to read them?

Please do note that the Search issue is only in regards to a peculiar and non-standard ruling that explosive runes detonate because characters are unable to control whether they read text or not, as there is nothing in the Search skill that allows them to not read.

[Segev]

Please do note that the Search issue is only in regards to a peculiar and non-standard ruling that explosive runes detonate because characters are unable to control whether they read text or not, as there is nothing in the Search skill that allows them to not read.

Okay. What is the contrary rule for which you advocate and use this as an example of why it should work as you suggest?

[Deophaun]

Okay. What is the contrary rule for which you advocate and use this as an example of why it should work as you suggest?

Well, as it was stated that the problem is a non-standard ruling that characters are unable to control whether they read text or not, I think the logical contrary rule would be that characters are able to control whether they read text or not, no?

[Segev]

Ah. Okay, so it's basically, "Unless I say 'I read that wall,' I didn't read it, even if I am staring at it and/or studying it closely."

I suppose, to be fair, the DM can't have anything you read be part of "boxed text;" he just describes that there is writing on the wall, and waits for somebody to ask him what it says before he assumes they read it?

[Deophaun]

I suppose, to be fair, the DM can't have anything you read be part of "boxed text;" he just describes that there is writing on the wall, and waits for somebody to ask him what it says before he assumes they read it?

Yes.

In general, the DM should wait for a player to say "What's it say" or "I read the text." But, that's not to say there can be exceptions for dramatic effect. Giant banners and signs aren't so much of a problem to auto-read, as unless the DM is cheesing these kinds of traps, there's nothing potentially harmful in reading them. It's more notes, books, and that kind of writing where traps can reside that represent a threat and, conveniently, are also inappropriate for boxed text.

[Segev]

It would take an honest group of players, but I am now amused by the idea of having the actual page of writing done up as a prop, and where the Explosive Runes show up, having it suddenly say, "Say, loudly, 'KABOOM!', because the page just exploded in your hands."


For a group of players you don't trust to be scrupulously honest about this, instead have it say, "And in reading this, you gain the [insert appropriate reward-sounding name here] effect. Ask the DM about it."