OOTS #918 - The Discussion Thread

[Kish]

Maybe not. Black Dragons are usually not nice people.

For hundreds of strips before he showed his first trace of a redeeming feature, the forum erupted with screams whenever Belkar's death was suggested.

I don't know that it would work that way with people who aren't shaped as much like humans as Belkar is, like black dragons. And that...is depressing.

[RNGgod]

For hundreds of strips before he showed his first trace of a redeeming feature, the forum erupted with screams whenever Belkar's death was suggested.

I don't know that it would work that way with people who aren't shaped as much like humans as Belkar is, like black dragons. And that...is depressing.

I know it is. And I'm absolutely horrified by the attempts, even after all this time, to defend V's actions.


But I'm also deeply disturbed by those whose reaction is "eh, screw it, have the Order kill the little bugger and write him/her out of the story forever." I don't know if V will make a real effort towards redemption-- only Rich knows at this point-- but I hope so, and I think it's a damn shame that we call for immediate punishment rather than maybe trying to predict how, if at all, redemption might come. If this gets too close to real-world stuff, I'll drop it, but shouldn't we be trying to use V's horrifying act as a lesson for why so much fantasy fiction is callous and genocidal, rather than as little more than a reason V deserves terrible things to happen to him/her?

[NihhusHuotAliro]

V could use Wish.

That could resurrect all the black dragons.

[TRH]

V could use Wish.

That could resurrect all the black dragons.

If V having Teleport is too dangerous for this comic, what on Earth makes you think Rich would allow her to run loose with Wish?

[Clistenes]

I'm not sure how much XP they'll be getting, actually. Collectively, the entire army (excluding the dinosaurs, maybe) might be equivalent in difficulty to the Sand Elemental Redcloak summoned earlier. All of these soldiers are probably first or second level grunts; virtually no matter what anyone in the Order rolls, they're probably each killing at least one soldier a round (nevermind the ones falling to friendly fire/Durkon's domination), whereas the soldiers themselves will be lucky, between their entire army, to hit a single member of the Order in a given round.

As for the dinosaurs... those might yield a bit more XP.

Heroes of Battle mentions gaining XP when battling large numbers of very low enemies, but is very vague about the issue. All it says is "sustract the number of your NPC soldiers from the number of the opposing army's soldiers, and calculate the CR of the difference", and "even if calculating the CR of the opposing army is too difficult, you can give the characters other rewards than XP, like an increase of their heroic reputation or a promotion for their military ranks".

So in short, they won't receive XP, unless they are given an Ad Hoc reward for surviving.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Fine then.

Z could use Wish to resurrect all the Black Dragons; proving hirself a perfect opposite to V.

V goes to eternal punishment when zie dies, and Z goes to some sort of heaven. A good person going to eternal punishment for one unspeakable horror; and a bad person going to some sort of heaven for an unimaginable good.

Also, Z needs a power-up; maybe a soul-splice with three very powerful good spellcasters.

And yes, I realize that this is stupid; but I can dream, can't I?

[Porthos]

V could use Wish.

That could resurrect all the black dragons.

(setting aside level considerations)

Not really. That isn't venturing into "Wish Abuse" territory, it is leaping into it full force while yodeling the Goofy Yell.

See, there is a long and cherished tradition of DMs screwing over players who use Wish. It's embedded directly into the very DNA of the spell and there are cautionary talkes about people who have fallen afoul of Wish that go back literally decades. Even something as noble as reversing Familicde would cause a DM/storyteller to slowly breakout a Cheshire Cat grin and say, "Let's stop the session for right now. We'll pick it back up once I The Fates have decided how to deal with this."

No. Wish is NOT the way to handle this. Not unless he did the 'safe' route and cast it something like 500 times (or much more when he has to bring back bodies where there isn't one availiable or where he has no idea where they are). And even there it is problematic in regards to getting each unique person right.

[happycrow]

Neutral Evil Robed Outsider?

Chaotic Evil Dude Redundantly Implementing Chaos?

Chaotic Evil Dude Robed in Crimson? (more of a burnt orange, really...)

[AKA_Bait]

For hundreds of strips before he showed his first trace of a redeeming feature, the forum erupted with screams whenever Belkar's death was suggested.

I don't know that it would work that way with people who aren't shaped as much like humans as Belkar is, like black dragons. And that...is depressing.

Also, don't forget that Belkar is funny. Funny gets a lot forgiven on the internets. Which is, itself, somewhat depressing.

But I'm also deeply disturbed by those whose reaction is "eh, screw it, have the Order kill the little bugger and write him/her out of the story forever." I don't know if V will make a real effort towards redemption-- only Rich knows at this point-- but I hope so, and I think it's a damn shame that we call for immediate punishment rather than maybe trying to predict how, if at all, redemption might come. If this gets too close to real-world stuff, I'll drop it, but shouldn't we be trying to use V's horrifying act as a lesson for why so much fantasy fiction is callous and genocidal, rather than as little more than a reason V deserves terrible things to happen to him/her?

Generally, I agree with you. I also think that redemption of some kind is the direction that The Giant will go with V's story arc. V unquestionably feels remorse for hir actions at this point, and I think that is the start of something larger.

In defense of the forums, however, there are some threads around about speculating on V's form of redemption (e.g., this one). At this point, though, we know so little about the Dwarven Lands and, given recent developments, about the Gates that it seems to me to be nigh impossible to make an evidence based prediction on how exactly V could be redeemed. Whatever it is would need to be pretty epic to come close to balancing the scales, which speaks to it happening toward the end of the full arc of the entire OotS story.

[Paseo H]

What V did was terrible but he's realizing it and has it in him to seek redemption.

That's fair to say, isn't it?

[zimmerwald1915]

1) What V did was terrible but 2) he's realizing it and 3) has it in him to seek redemption.

That's fair to say, isn't it?

Your first proposition should be taken as axiomatic. Strip 866 supports your second very strongly. The third, however, is wishful thinking.

[Snails]

That's the best thing about Tarquin and co. At this point, they can't lose! Sure they could be killed or exiled or generally defeated, but they still would have been living large and doing whatever they wanted for a long time. That's why "beating" him is such a challenge for Elan, no matter how he goes down Tarquin will never lose the years he was on top.

Once a character hits double digit levels, "living large" is not an accomplishment worthy of bragging about. Thinking of such things as super important is selling Tarquin and friends rather short.

I am sure that Tarquin is pleased enough of his years on top, with the authority to exercise power over others. But he has sacrificed his relationship with his two quite talented sons shooting for something much grander. If he falls short, do you think he will just shrug it off? Hard to say, really.

[Paseo H]

Your first proposition should be taken as axiomatic. Strip 866 supports your second very strongly. The third, however, is wishful thinking.

I said that he 'has it in him,' not 'he will definitely attain it.'

He could still seek it and fail.

But unlike Tarquin or Kubota or perhaps even Belkar, V seems to be fully aware now of what really is. Look at his reply to Qarr when the little imp tried to convince him it was the soul splice gang's doing.

[zimmerwald1915]

I said that he 'has it in him,' not 'he will definitely attain it.'

I know what you said; I'm not convinced of it. V has not demonstrated to me that capacity. I don't think she will ever be able to.

Oh, and to return to an earlier point...

That's fair to say, isn't it?

What is compelling you to be "fair" to the mass-murderer instead of, say, holding her to a higher standard than decent people?

[Rabbit]

Heroes of Battle mentions gaining XP when battling large numbers of very low enemies, but is very vage about the issue. All it says is "sustract the number of your NPC soldiers from the number opposing army's soldiers, and calculate the CR of the difference", and "even if calculating the CR of the opposing army is too difficult, you can give the characters other rewards than XP, like an increase of their heroic reputation or a promotion for their military ranks".

So in short, they won't receive XP, unless they are given an Ad Hoc reward for surviving.

I'm not sure what the CR would be of the dinosaurs themselves, was my point. I understand that the the soldiers are too low level to possibly pose a threat, but an allosaurus (sp?) might be an actual threat. I'm kidn of thinking the arena monsters in Attack of the Clones, and their Geonosian handlers; the handlers themselves were sparsely more dangerous than Pikmin, but the Acklay gave Obi-Wan a run for his money.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm not sure what the CR would be of the dinosaurs themselves, was my point. I understand that the the soldiers are too low level to possibly pose a threat, but an allosaurus (sp?) might be an actual threat.

As statted up in Monster Manual II, an allosaurus is CR 7. Both Belkar and Durkon are definitely too high-level to gain XP from encountering a single allosaurus. Roy might not be.

[ManuelSacha]

Not really. That isn't venturing into "Wish Abuse" territory, it is leaping into it full force while yodeling the Goofy Yell.

See, there is a long and cherished tradition of DMs screwing over players who use Wish. It's embedded directly into the very DNA of the spell and there are cautionary talkes about people who have fallen afoul of Wish that go back literally decades.

True. One of my players once wanted to gain levels.
He didn't explain himself quite clearly.
He suddenly got a (already teenage) daughter to take care of.
He was the lucky one.
None of them tried it ever agian.

PS: You get bonus points for the Goofy Yell.

[David Argall]

I'm not sure how much XP they'll be getting, actually. Collectively, the entire army (excluding the dinosaurs, maybe) might be equivalent in difficulty to the Sand Elemental Redcloak summoned earlier. All of these soldiers are probably first or second level grunts; virtually no matter what anyone in the Order rolls, they're probably each killing at least one soldier a round (nevermind the ones falling to friendly fire/Durkon's domination), whereas the soldiers themselves will be lucky, between their entire army, to hit a single member of the Order in a given round.

As for the dinosaurs... those might yield a bit more XP.

XP is based on difficulty and risk. A kobold who is invisible, hasted, armed with a +lots staff of mucho damage can be worth more than a storm giant who is weakened, stunned, blinded, and weaponless. Those of us who dream that the party can actually win this fight have to say the party won't get much. Those with a more realistic view would say the party is taking on "an opponent" of several levels higher. So they get a lot of XP if they win. But we are likely only talking about 4-5 levels higher and so the party is unlikely to earn even a level worth. If they are getting a level worth, it would likely mean the DM screwed up. The party should have been an easy TPK or something weird was happening that meant the XP award was way too large.

[Liliet]

Your first proposition should be taken as axiomatic. Strip 866 supports your second very strongly. The third, however, is wishful thinking.

Actually, third is strongly based on evidence. I say that V has pretty strong chances if ve truly puts vir mind to it.

[zimmerwald1915]

Actually, third is strongly based on evidence. I say that V has pretty strong chances if ve truly puts vir mind to it.

All those strips, the strongest of which I already cited, establish recognition of sin (anagnorisis), not capacity for good. The two are not connected; one can condemn wrong without being themselves able to do right. Miko is a fine example of such a person.

[Paseo H]

I know what you said; I'm not convinced of it. V has not demonstrated to me that capacity. I don't think she will ever be able to.

Oh, and to return to an earlier point...


What is compelling you to be "fair" to the mass-murderer instead of, say, holding her to a higher standard than decent people?

What would be a demonstration of capacity? So that I know where you're coming from.

[zimmerwald1915]

What would be a demonstration of capacity? So that I know where you're coming from.

Any act which I am not reasonably able to explain as something else. Before you go off on my intransigence, recall this: I used to hold the position that V would never complete her recognition of her wrong, because she would not recognize the dragons among her victims. She has done that, and I have not argued that point since. Indeed, I wrote a rather long post praising her for completing her anagnorisis.

To paraphrase Potter Stewart, I'll know it when I see it.

[Paseo H]

And for me, it's precisely that recognition, as well as showing some steps towards amending his personality flaws, that to me signals he's capable, though hardly guaranteed, of redemption.

[zimmerwald1915]

And for me, it's precisely that recognition, as well as showing some steps towards amending his personality flaws, that to me signals he's capable, though hardly guaranteed, of redemption.

Again, one can condemn wickedness, even in themselves, without necessarily being able to do good. Miko was able to condemn Shojo's manipulations, but was unable, unlike Hinjo or Roy, to either see the good in Shojo's actions or at least restrain themselves from executing him on the spot. She had it within her to condemn evil, but did not have the capacity to do good. Is she not enough of an example for you? Well, how about Redcloak? He clearly loathes some of the things he has done, but is unable to stop doing them because he believes they'll "all be worth it" in the end. Here we have someone able to condemn themselves, but still unable to start doing good.

[TRH]

Again, one can condemn wickedness, even in themselves, without necessarily being able to do good. Miko not good enough for you? Well, how about Redcloak? He clearly loathes some of the things he has done, but is unable to stop doing them because he believes they'll "all be worth it" in the end.

That ignores the fact that Miko wasn't able to see wickedness in herself, a pretty big difference considering that Soon singled that out as something keeping her from achieving redemption. As for Redcloak, he has a goal that he expects to invalidate any questionable deeds he commits on the way. Vaarsuvius hasn't explicitly characterized the Gate quest in the same way. So long as she avoids that trap, there may be some hope.

[Paseo H]

Well when I say redemption, I mean redeemed from doing that monstrous act, not "becomes a good person," if by good you mean good aligned. Could redeem himself to become True Neutral again.

[zimmerwald1915]

So long as she avoids that trap

Too late (panel 8). Ironically, this was the position Blackwing - who V apologists like to say will serve as her conscience - was pushing.

Well when I say redemption, I mean redeemed from doing that monstrous act, not "becomes a good person," if by good you mean good aligned. Could redeem himself to become True Neutral again.

I mean the same thing. And, per Word of Giant, she's True Neutral now.

[jgmaurer]

Zimmer....

By bringing up Miko you just shot your opinion down a bit. Soon's whole entire point to Miko was that redemption isn't for everybody because everybody can't admit they're sometimes wrong (which was Miko's problem).

V has done that already (recognizing what she/he has done). That alone should show us that he/she has the capacity to find redemption.

Note I said the capacity, not that she/he will. Though I think Rich is aiming that way (I hope at least).

[zimmerwald1915]

Zimmer....

By bringing up Miko you just shot your opinion down a bit. Soon's whole entire point to Miko was that redemption isn't for everybody because everybody can't admit they're sometimes wrong (which was Miko's problem).

What Soon said was that anagnorisis was necessary, not that it is sufficient. I am arguing that recognition of one's own problems and one's capacity to do differently, to do better, are not the same thing. Paseo H's argument, and yours, is that recognition implies capacity. The tragedians say differently, and I agree. I say you need more to even hint at capacity.

[Paseo H]

Kish.

Obviously, it was wrong for V to kill all the black dragons out of revenge, and it would be wrong to kill them because they're all evil.

Regardless, I question the wisdom of restoring them to life, because 9 out of ten probably are genuinely evil and dangerous. Should V restore the ones that are a genuine danger to what is good and righteous for the sake of the few who were not worthy of death?

Just because you shouldn't judge the rightness of your actions by the 'cold calculus' doesn't mean you should throw out the cold calculus either.