OOTS #929 - The Discussion Thread

[Commander672]

It's a good thing Elan didn't say "If you want to kill him, you'll have to go through me!". If he had the pun bonus would've killed them both.

[Alent]

What, exactly, could possibly be more straightforward than the present situtation? Durkon has died. He had the 'X's in his eyes, and all. He is now clear to return to the dwarven lands posthumously.
[snip]

Where the tomb of Kraagor, a barbarian dwarf, just happens to encase the last gate.

Durkon doesn't even have to be a vampire to fulfill the dwarven prophecy, all he's got to do is crack the gate with a stray hammer toss after getting his ashes gathered and reincarnated by some random neutral evil elf druid in the northern forest that drive-by friended him on macebook during the magic carpet ride, who saw his "is burning to death in the sun" status.

Certainly, it makes the most sense for him to return as the first vampire cleric of Hel at this point, bringing Hel's wrath upon the followers of Thor by helping his new druid friend plant trees everywhere, but there's still plenty of options to be had here.

Edit: Fun with colors. I think this whole post should smack of sarcasm, but that little blue bit is more sarcastic than the rest.

[Amphiox]

Why WOULD he? That would be entirely against everything we know about the character. Tarquin is a control freak and will kill as many people as possible to get his way, but once it's been established that he's lost, he's surprisingly sportsmanlike about it. For example, remember when the two lizardfolk escaped the arena? They defied him blatantly, but Tarquin didn't give two snits about it. Or when the OOTS beat him to the gate, Tarquin's response was more like "Good game, well played."

Tarquin is many awful things, but a sore loser is not one of them.

Except when it involves his sons.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So, despite rubbishing the prophecies, you are prepared to suggest Durkon might somehow survive due to "dramatic reasons" - even though it so happens that the most glaringly obvious dramatic reasons supporting his survival are that he has to fulfill the prophecies about him?

All I am saying is that Durkon's vampiric survival as a vampire is in no way, shape or form predicted or supported by the prophecies - which is the exact opposite of what you said in your original post ("a prophecy[...]implies he is protected by a certain degree of "Plot Armour" from the destruction wrought by ongoing solar irradiance." [source]). As you say in your own post, all the Oracle prophecy establishes is that Durkon will go to the dwarven lands, since by almost every definition he is now posthumous, and will continue to be so whether he is a vampire, a pile of ashes or a resurrected dwarf. The idea that Vampire!Durkon will somehow escape the sun is not at all certain at this point.

The dwarven prophecy states that Durkon's return will bring death and destruction. Again, I do not believe that requires him to be a vampire. He could bring death and destruction even in a jar, or floating in the wind, or as a living dwarf angry at his god's lack of action in his moment of need. As above, that does not give Durkula a plot shield.

Grey Wolf

[Amphiox]

Hmm. Given how Tarquin has been shown to treat and regard women in general, having Haley be the one who definitively and finally thwarts his current scheme would be rather thematic....

[ts20fan]

I just hope the plan starts rolling soon.

[Idiomorph]

Long time lurker, first time poster, etc, etc.

I bet the words are:

Go
Through
Cerebus
Syndrome

(apologies to those who those who hate TvTropes)

Heavy tone of the current arc aside, no matter what happens in the next few strips, I am reasonably confident that Durkon is not going back home in an urn and here's why:

Spoiler

Show

The letter sent to Durkon from the current High Priest of Odin. If Rich had decided on making Durkon a vampire long ago, then I'm willing to be the letter was a setup for his return, as the convention with vampires states that a vampire cannot enter where they are not invited to go it just seems like too good/fun a narrative point to pass up

[Ramien]

Why WOULD he? That would be entirely against everything we know about the character. Tarquin is a control freak and will kill as many people as possible to get his way, but once it's been established that he's lost, he's surprisingly sportsmanlike about it. For example, remember when the two lizardfolk escaped the arena? They defied him blatantly, but Tarquin didn't give two snits about it. Or when the OOTS beat him to the gate, Tarquin's response was more like "Good game, well played."

Tarquin is many awful things, but a sore loser is not one of them.

Because there's no rationalizing that loss. The two losses you've cited are minor, on Tarquin's scale. Watch Tarquin's reaction after the lizardfolk escaped. He was okay with it, because it still served his purpose in a way (made the games more memorable, and he had already turned a profit on the matter). Watch him again after the Gate blew, revealing that he would probably have blown it anyway and it was a test for Nale as much as anything else. But this isn't either of those situations. This is a direct defiance of Tarquin's will, of the way things are supposed to go in these stories. Remember what happened with the slave escape Haley and V arranged? Tarquin didn't take that lying down, did he? He purposely hunted down each and every one of those slaves and set them out on the hillside to burn.

Beyond that, it will make sure that, while Tarquin may not win, neither will the Order. If Elan offs himself and Durkon doesn't get dusted, then Elan and his friends win, Tarquin loses. But if Elan, Durkon, and the rest all die, then Tarquin still loses, but they don't win, either, and I wouldn't trust Tarquin's benevolence as far as I can throw the triceratops.

[Snails]

Hmm. Given how Tarquin has been shown to treat and regard women in general, having Haley be the one who definitively and finally thwarts his current scheme would be rather thematic....

Not sure how it will pan out, but Tarquin has accidentally put himself squarely in the sights of three of the (probably) more competent people in OotSverse: Haley, Sabine, Elan's mother.

That is a very dangerous list of enemies. And he unlikely to see it coming, whatever it is.

[pendell]

The dwarven prophecy states that Durkon's return will bring death and destruction. Again, I do not believe that requires him to be a vampire. He could bring death and destruction even in a jar, or floating in the wind, or as a living dwarf angry at his god's lack of action in his moment of need. As above, that does not give Durkula a plot shield.

With all due respect, Grey Wolf, I find this fulfillment to be highly unlikely. Rich Burlew's fulfillment of prophecies in the past have usually been straightforward. The most logical fulfillment to me is that Durkula returns to the Dwarven lands as an undead undead, and a cleric of the gods of death and destruction. Or something very similar to that. Not as a particle cloud. Well, except in the quantum-mechanics sense that ALL matter is a form of particle clouds, but this is OOTS, not XKCD :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kish]

I just hope the plan starts rolling soon.

Which plan?

[mhsmith]

Why WOULD he? That would be entirely against everything we know about the character. Tarquin is a control freak and will kill as many people as possible to get his way, but once it's been established that he's lost, he's surprisingly sportsmanlike about it. For example, remember when the two lizardfolk escaped the arena? They defied him blatantly, but Tarquin didn't give two snits about it. Or when the OOTS beat him to the gate, Tarquin's response was more like "Good game, well played."

Tarquin is many awful things, but a sore loser is not one of them.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0783.html

Dad, I don't enjoy watching people suffer just because they got the better of me once!

You don't? Huh. Weird.


Tarquin is a VERY sore loser. However, he also seems to have a gift for rationalizing losses and finding ways to interpret them as wins (see here). So there are plenty of ways things could shake out long term.

[Shining Wrath]

Not sure how it will pan out, but Tarquin has accidentally put himself squarely in the sights of three of the (probably) more competent people in OotSverse: Haley, Sabine, Elan's mother.

That is a very dangerous list of enemies. And he unlikely to see it coming, whatever it is.

The competent women. Which sex he, in general, treats shabbily.

The smack-down cometh. It will be glorious. Maybe not in the next few comics ...

[Kish]

If Durkon Thundershield and the Vampire Durkon are not the same person, as some have argued in past threads (and I personally have no opinion on either way), then does the prophecy imply that Durkon will be raised and go back to being a Dwarven cleric before returning home?

If it does, then Eugene will be stuck on that cloud forever. He swore vengeance on a living, now long-dead, sorcerer; everything Roy has done against Xykon, in pursuit of fulfilling the Blood Oath and independently of the Blood Oath, has been aimed at that sorcerer's still-moving bones.

[RMS Oceanic]

Which plan?

Presumably this one.

[Adaon Nightwind]

This left me speechless.

What the proverbial what-ever.

I thought i could think about possible outcomes. Well, i have absolutely no idea what to expect next.

I only hope.

[Manji]

I agree. But if you insist on "straighforward" prophecy interpretation, that means that you have a problem. I don't insist on it, and don't have a problem with Durkon now fulfilling non-straighforward definitions of posthumous.

I also don't have a problem with Durkon indicating, rather than causing, death and destruction.

The only thing I have a problem is the fatalistic belief that since Durkon must return as undead to dwarven lands to cause death and destruction, that means he is not about to die. That logic has way too many internal contradictions to hold. In short, Durkon may be about to die, or he may have plot armour due to dramatic reasons. But the various prophecies about him do not give him that protection.

Grey Wolf

I think it is as simple as Roy and Durkon said it previously

But... you'll still be dead.

as a doornail! isn't it glorious!?!

I think it is pretty clear

[Knight.Anon]

Durkon was doomed to die and worse:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html

I don't think that vampire's have souls, so it would be possible and interesting if Durkon's soul becomes a ghost that tries to seek out and slay his vampiric counterpart.

[Jay R]

Tarquin is many awful things, but a sore loser is not one of them.

I don't think we can know what kind of loser he is until we see him lose.

[Liliet]

Although I generally hate Elan's character (he's the archetype of the irresponsible player who gets other players killed, not out of malice but rather out of his own stupidity) I have to say, he's being surprisingly strategic here. He knows that he doesn't stand a chance against Tarquin in combat, so he's using the one most significant advantage he knows he DOES have - that Tarquin won't kill him. And although Elan may be dumb as rocks, one of his few strengths is that he has always been ready to sacrifice himself to protect the people he cares about, which is playing directly into the character.

It may sound crazy, but one thing that might really turn this battle around is if Elan were to slit his own throat. Think about it. Tarquin would have to call off the attack on Durkon and let him heal (Durkon probably won't die next turn - even if he doesn't have the staff in hand, he or V could probably cast Darkness), since the only cleric whom he knows with certainty that Elan's soul would let itself be ressurected by is Durkon. Then Durkon could refuse to resurrect Elan unless Roy and the rest of the group is spared. (Old Durkon might not use "letting a friend stay dead" as a bargaining chip, but new Durkon seems ruthless enough to do just that.) Once Elan is resurrected, Tarquin will have to TALK through his problems rather than fighting, since he has no guarantee Elan won't just kill himself again. And he will still owe Laurin a favor, since she did everything she promised and THEN some. In other words, Tarquin would not just be defeated, but he would have to acknowledge the humiliation of being outmatched and unable to control the situation, and have to pay his allies on top of it.

I've seen this idea for Elan's future actions many times, and now I want to note that, given latest developments, Elan probably has too much hp to kill himself with mere throat-slitting. I mean, what's the functional difference in deadliness between slitting the neck artery and piercing through the heart?

[Benthesquid]

I've seen this idea for Elan's future actions many times, and now I want to note that, given latest developments, Elan probably has too much hp to kill himself with mere throat-slitting. I mean, what's the functional difference in deadliness between slitting the neck artery and piercing through the heart?

Count yourself as a helpless target and coup de grace yourself, then intentionally fail the Fortitude save?

[DaggerPen]

I've seen this idea for Elan's future actions many times, and now I want to note that, given latest developments, Elan probably has too much hp to kill himself with mere throat-slitting. I mean, what's the functional difference in deadliness between slitting the neck artery and piercing through the heart?

Being counted as a coup de grace under the rules.

EDIT: Ninja'd, darn it.

[137beth]

Darn it...

I was really tired and my vision was fuzzy and I thought I saw that strip 941 was up. And then I realized I wasn't even in front of a computer

[Liliet]

Count yourself as a helpless target and coup de grace yourself, then intentionally fail the Fortitude save?

Being counted as a coup de grace under the rules.

EDIT: Ninja'd, darn it.

Hmm. So he can if he wants. Thanks.

[JSSheridan]

My crazy theory for the next strip.

The Greenhilt sword is linked to the Greenhilt bloodline. It's what allows Eugene to manifest to Roy normally.

When the sword sees Roys blood, there will be some feedback to damage Tarquin instead.

[Canisius]

Long time lurker, first time poster, etc, etc.

I bet the words are:

Go
Through
Cerebus
Syndrome

(apologies to those who those who hate TvTropes)

I too was speculating if Rich would continue marking out a sentence after this strip. But I think Elan getting shish-kebabed in the last panel would count toward it being a two-word sentence. Tarquin "went through".

[Silverionmox]

Hmm. Given how Tarquin has been shown to treat and regard women in general, having Haley be the one who definitively and finally thwarts his current scheme would be rather thematic....

Tarquin isn't sexist; he sees men and women alike as tools to further his goals. It just happens that he isn't gay. Otherwise there would be a lot of surprise inspections in the barracks, followed by special missions for the most athletic among them.

[Canisius]

With all due respect, Grey Wolf, I find this fulfillment to be highly unlikely. Rich Burlew's fulfillment of prophecies in the past have usually been straightforward. The most logical fulfillment to me is that Durkula returns to the Dwarven lands as an undead undead, and a cleric of the gods of death and destruction. Or something very similar to that. Not as a particle cloud. Well, except in the quantum-mechanics sense that ALL matter is a form of particle clouds, but this is OOTS, not XKCD :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

At the risk of repeating this one too many times:

"Posthumous: happening, done, or published after someone's death" (Merriam-Webster online). So that's the Oracle prophecy - "How will I return to my homeland?" "Posthumously".

I can't find the additional bit about "bringing death and destruction", which may change my interpretation, but..

For the true pedant, the verb "return" seems to be the tricky bit. Yes, returning as undead would count. Yes, returning as a resurrected Durkon would count. As dust? Well, I think that'd be a little too byzantine for what I see as Rich's storytelling style. But you could (and we are) argue that technically that would count as "returning", in the same sense that when a corpse is buried in their homeland after dying abroad it's often rhetorically referred to as "coming home" or "returning to their homeland".

But again, the two things I think we could count on as probable are Durkon returning either as undead or resurrected. Anything else gets into fuzzy story-telling that, as I said, we haven't really seen from Rich, as you acknowledged in the quoted post.

After promising myself I wouldn't get into this hyper-parsing speculation, I guess I've succumbed at last.

Anyway, that denouement is likely a few years off. After reading this, I'll just state what I've thought each time the last few dozen strips have appeared: "HOW ARE THEY GONNA GET OUT OF THIS ONE?!"

[Canisius]

Durkon was doomed to die and worse:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html

I don't think that vampire's have souls, so it would be possible and interesting if Durkon's soul becomes a ghost that tries to seek out and slay his vampiric counterpart.

Whoa - could that happen in D&D? That would be friggin AWESOME!

[Canisius]

Darn it...

I was really tired and my vision was fuzzy and I thought I saw that strip 941 was up. And then I realized I wasn't even in front of a computer

We can all go home now. 137ben has won this thread.