Elan's Alignment - Heading South?

[Kurashima]

Surely just took several notches towards neutral, if not further, by allowing his dad to drop to his near death from an airship, regardless of his reasoning. As he said in his speech, "I'm the good twin".

Even if his father is still the most evil man on the face of the planet, does intentionally allowing him to fall when he could easily have saved him, not count as an evil act, or taking into consideration the fact he knew he would survive, definetely not the act of a character with a good alignment?

[Blisstake]

Nah, Tarquin deserved far worse. Killing him would have been entirely within the good alignment.

[Kish]

No. Nor would it have negatively impacted Elan's alignment had he grabbed Roy's greatsword and lopped his father's head off--though it would have indicated a difference in how Elan viewed what it means to be good.

Considering that he did know Tarquin would survive, the suggestion goes from merely wrong to goofy. I absolutely defy you to find anywhere in any non-humorous D&D work where it suggests that letting a horrible monster take a little damage is incompatible with a Good alignment. (I also defy you to find anywhere that it says that killing is incompatible with a good alignment, when the people you kill are a direct and active threat to you and/or other people, which, as it happens, Tarquin was. Or anywhere where it suggests that Tarquin being Elan's biological father is in any way relevant to Elan's alignment.) Good characters kill people far less vile than Tarquin routinely in D&D. (I have to wonder if you've been reading the whole comic with the belief that Elan, Celia, and maybe Durkon were the only good characters in it, with Roy, Haley, and the vast majority of the cast being evil, especially all the paladins.)

And as Elan said, he's not a twin anymore.

[NerdyKris]

Also, the entire point of his line is that he KNOWS Tarquin can survive the fall. It was the equivalent of tripping him and running away. Painful, but completely non lethal. He did it with full knowledge that his dad wasn't going to die from it.

[Porthos]

No. Nor would it have negatively impacted Elan's alignment had he grabbed Roy's greatsword and lopped his father's head off--though it would have indicated a difference in how Elan viewed what it means to be good.

Considering that he did know Tarquin would survive, the suggestion goes from merely wrong to goofy. I absolutely defy you to find anywhere in any non-humorous D&D work where it suggests that letting a horrible monster take a little damage is incompatible with a Good alignment. (I also defy you to find anywhere that it says that killing is incompatible with a good alignment, when the people you kill are a direct and active threat to you and/or other people, which, as it happens, Tarquin was. Or anywhere where it suggests that Tarquin being Elan's biological father is in any way relevant to Elan's alignment.) Good characters kill people far less vile than Tarquin routinely in D&D.

And as Elan said, he's not a twin anymore.

I could see someone who took an exceptionally absolutist outlook from a sourcebook like Book of Exalted Deeds saying that Elan might not be Exalted or Saintly anymore (If Elan was Exalted/Saintly in the first place [which he wasn't, I'm just going for the most strict of strict possibilities here]). Depending on just how genuniue they felt Tarquin's offer to surrender was. Rejecting mercy, and all that. But that would take a pretty hardcore read of that book, from what I remember.

Aside from that, what everyone else said. Letting Tarquin get inconvenienced isn't going to change Elan's alignment in the slightest. Wouldn't even qualify as an evil act that would cause a Paladin to Fall, IMO*.

* Whether or not it would 'grossly violate' their hypothetical Code, is an entirely different (and unanswerable) matter.

[RedMage125]

It shows a great failing of understanding to think that EVERY action a character takes affects their alignment. Elan allowing his dad to drop off the airship...was it a Good act? No. But it wasn't an objectively Evil one, either. He knew his dad would survive, he knew his dad's allies could rescue him after 1 day at the most, and there was a driving need to move forward and go on with the party's mission to save the world.

Elan acted in what HE FELT was in the best interests of Good, even if it meant committing a morally Neutral act. This is entirely in keeping with the tenents of Chaotic Good. He followed his own moral compass.

So no, I do not think Elan's alignment is in any danger of changing at all.

[Gift Jeraff]

Elan previously wanting to keep his family and prisoners alive--regardless of how horribly evil they were--is only indicative of Elan's personal views on what it means to be good and does not necessarily reflect the values of the Good alignment in general.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't see why Elan's alignment would change. Killing in itself is neither a good or evil act, so that wouldn't change anything (not to mention he knew Tarquin would live). I don't think the fact that it was done deliberately would matter either. Tarquin had threatened to kill Haley, the rest of the Order, burn down the Mechane, and cut of Elan's hand. When he offered to be captured, he said he would try to manipulate Elan. Elan really had no choice but to remove him.

[Dissection]

Has anyone ever thought about the fact that Elan blew up Dorukan's Dungeon, which had good-aligned goblin teenagers in it?

[Kish]

Has anyone ever thought about the fact that Elan blew up Dorukan's Dungeon, which had good-aligned goblin teenagers in it?

Multiple times.

My comment previously has been along the lines of Elan being too stupid to understand what he was doing. However, since the last time it came up, Word of the Author comments on the moral culpability of Thog and the Empress of Blood...have led me to the just-realized conclusion that that was an inappropriate degree of lenience to show Elan.

Elan's original concept included "cheerfully, well-meaningly more dangerous to be around than Belkar." If I were to assess the original Dungeon of Dorukan strips through the established moral framework of OotS now, I would feel obligated to give him the same "Amoral and destructive - Chaotic Evil" tag as Thog. I would say...best not to think about anything from Dungeon Crawlin' Fools too much. Whatever alignment Elan was as of strip #935, or strip #200 for that matter, nothing has happened in #936 that would change it.

[Mike Havran]

I would say that Elan started so far in the "north" that basically any moral developement has to lead southern from there. But there was nothing wrong or non-good about what he did in the latest strip. I think that if this was Elan at his worst, it simply undercuts how Good person he actually is.

[jogiff]

Has anyone ever thought about the fact that Elan blew up Dorukan's Dungeon, which had good-aligned goblin teenagers in it?

I don't think that he had evil intent. I think it just hadn't properly occurred to him that the self-destruct rune would actually hurt living things (including himself and his friends).

However, I do think that refusing a deal with Tarquin does show less than goodness on Elan's part. Not because he didn't try to help Tarquin, but because Tarquin offered a compromise that would have helped immensely in the greater fight against a much worse evil (Xykon).

He put his own hate (however justified) ahead of the greater good.

[Math_Mage]

Multiple times.

My comment previously has been along the lines of Elan being too stupid to understand what he was doing. However, since the last time it came up, Word of the Author comments on the moral culpability of Thog and the Empress of Blood...have led me to the just-realized conclusion that that was an inappropriate degree of lenience to show Elan.

Elan's original concept included "cheerfully, well-meaningly more dangerous to be around than Belkar." If I were to assess the original Dungeon of Dorukan strips through the established moral framework of OotS now, I would feel obligated to give him the same "Amoral and destructive - Chaotic Evil" tag as Thog. I would say...best not to think about anything from Dungeon Crawlin' Fools too much. Whatever alignment Elan was as of strip #935, or strip #200 for that matter, nothing has happened in #936 that would change it.

I disagree that DCF!Elan is comparable to Thog, Belkar, or EoB, in that the latter all demonstrate Evil intent. The Giant's comments have been that stupidity does not excuse Evil actions with Evil intent. Evil actions with Stupid intent may or may not be excused.

However, I do think that refusing a deal with Tarquin does show less than goodness on Elan's part. Not because he didn't try to help Tarquin, but because Tarquin offered a compromise that would have helped immensely in the greater fight against a much worse evil (Xykon).

He put his own hate (however justified) ahead of the greater good.

You assume that Tarquin's offer is trustworthy and therefore an unqualified benefit. Recent events demonstrate that this should not be taken for granted.

[Mike Havran]

I don't think that he had evil intent. I think it just hadn't properly occurred to him that the self-destruct rune would actually hurt living things (including himself and his friends).

However, I do think that refusing a deal with Tarquin does show less than goodness on Elan's part. Not because he didn't try to help Tarquin, but because Tarquin offered a compromise that would have helped immensely in the greater fight against a much worse evil (Xykon).

He put his own hate (however justified) ahead of the greater good.

Um ... I wouldn't take Tarquin's promises that seriously.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I took Elan's comment that he's not a twin anymore just to mean that he doesn't just think of himself as simply, naively 'good'. I took it to mean that he realizes that good an evil aren't so simple as that.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Elan was always evil, since he blew up the Dungeon of Dorukan, killing untold numbers in it; and causing countless second-edition monsters to go extinct. Vaarsuvius only killed one-fourth of a species, Elan made who-knows-how-many go extinct.

I doubt Nale killed as many.

Also, remember those azurites who died because Elan threw the water-regenerating monsters overboard? OR the time where Elan was talking to Durkon and V while the ship was being attacked, and he didn't mention it until the end of the strip, leaving the low-level azurites to die while his mid-level friends were distracted, even when said azurites had sent him to specifically get said mid-level friends?

Like his father, ELan is an insidious manipulator of politics and a war-causer; given how he ruined the last, best, hope for peace for the troglodytes, in spite of Sir Francois's noble efforts. HE also told thieves how to steal Sir Francois's priceless stuff and heirlooms, leaving him in poverty. And he failed to count to one hundred properly.

[snikrept]

I am guessing that buried in there somewhere is a joke about gameworld mechanics and how falling a vast distance is not a big threat to a character with a lot of hitpoints. Tarquin can probably soak 20d6 with ease. Elan basically just let Tarquin go. Pulling him up -- taking him prisoner -- would have been more harsh.

[HendoJ]

I am guessing that buried in there somewhere is a joke about gameworld mechanics and how falling a vast distance is not a big threat to a character with a lot of hitpoints. Tarquin can probably soak 20d6 with ease. Elan basically just let Tarquin go. Pulling him up -- taking him prisoner -- would have been more harsh.

Pretty much yes. 20d6 would average out to about 70hp I think? I can't imagine Tarquin having less than 150.


In terms of past evils, etc...

Intent matters, if there's no intent you're more likely negligent. Negligence can certainly be terrible, but it isn't evil.

[Geordnet]

Refusing to rescue Tarquin was a purely Neutral act -and would have been so even if Elan had expected his father to die from the impact. Inaction is, after all, the ultimate neutrality. (Neutral is not Nice; just take a look at the animal kingdom.) Besides, Tarquin got himself into that predicament as a direct consequence of deliberate Evil acts; falling to his death would merely be reaping what he'd sown.

Now, if Elan had taken pleasure in watching him fall, that is another matter...

[Ridureyu]

Yes, Elan's alignment is now Southern Good. I expect him to develop a taste for mint juleps quite soon.

[jogiff]

Um ... I wouldn't take Tarquin's promises that seriously.

That's not the issue. The issue was Elan's reason for turning it down. "I don't want you to get what you want! Forget it!"

It wasn't "I don't trust you!"

[StoryKeeper]

I think Elan's becoming less naive, but dropping his father off the ship certainly wasn't an evil act. He knew his father would survive the fall. He simply refused to naively pull a possibly epic-level bad guy up onto the ship where he could threaten or harm people. Dropping him from the ship wasn't really any more evil than punching someone in the stomach to keep them from threatening those around you.

His line about not wanting his father to get what he wants and his line about not being the "good twin" are both indicators that Elan, while still a good guy, has grown up enough to realize what it means to be good rather than just blindly doing saturday morning cartoon style good acts.

[Procyonpi]

My comment previously has been along the lines of Elan being too stupid to understand what he was doing. However, since the last time it came up, Word of the Author comments on the moral culpability of Thog and the Empress of Blood...have led me to the just-realized conclusion that that was an inappropriate degree of lenience to show Elan.

There's a huge difference between Thog / the EoB and Elan. All Rich said was basically that their INT scores aren't low enough for them to be unable to make moral judgments, not that every character in the strip is smart enough to predict every consequence of their actions and is as morally culpable for the unintended ones as the intended ones. Both Thog and the EoB have on multiple occasions committed premeditated (or at the very least intention) murder of good-aligned characters, which is something Elan would never dream of doing.

[NerdyKris]

I am guessing that buried in there somewhere is a joke about gameworld mechanics and how falling a vast distance is not a big threat to a character with a lot of hitpoints. Tarquin can probably soak 20d6 with ease. Elan basically just let Tarquin go. Pulling him up -- taking him prisoner -- would have been more harsh.

Maybe, but it's been constantly established, especially in this latest battle, that the characters can take superhuman amounts of abuse. I don't think it's a joke anymore (Like the fire in the inn for example). I think it's just a facet of the characters at this point. Much the way that Wolverine surviving a lot of damage isn't a joke (well, except when it is, obviously), it's just part of his abilities.

[Jay R]

Nope. Elan's common sense - heading north.

[RossN]

I do think Elan is shifting alignment, but more in that he is shifting from Chaotic Good to Neutral Good.

[Fish]

Elan has always been stupid. However, because he is growing less stupid, he is no longer Stupid Good.

[Kish]

There's a huge difference between Thog / the EoB and Elan. All Rich said was basically that their INT scores aren't low enough for them to be unable to make moral judgments, not that every character in the strip is smart enough to predict every consequence of their actions and is as morally culpable for the unintended ones as the intended ones. Both Thog and the EoB have on multiple occasions committed premeditated (or at the very least intention) murder of good-aligned characters, which is something Elan would never dream of doing.

Elan=too dumb to realize that explosions kill? Well, I guess so (he did it to himself too, after all). That being the case, however, I have to wonder about his classification as smarter than Thog.

[NerdyKris]

I could have sworn the Giant said at some point that we should simply assume everyone got out, because he didn't think of that when he wrote the explosion scene.

The Order managed to make it from the throne room to the outside AND had time to hang around a few seconds. And this was after a multi day dungeon crawl to reach it in the first place. It's not inconceivable that there were plenty of one way escape routes for the goblins and monsters. (The stairs Celia used, and the route the Order used) Especially given that Dorukan built it and wouldn't want his allies being stuck inside if the failsafe is needed. After all, we saw the flumphs alive and well outside.

[Rodin]

I've always considered DCF to be in the same boat as the early Discworld books - broad strokes canon. The events in them happened, but don't sweat the details because the characters in the book are not the same characters as the ones that eventually emerge as fully-realized people.

As to Elan, his actual alignment hasn't shifted but his outlook certainly has. Previously, he was idealistic almost to a fault. Now, he's more ruthless and willing to get his hands dirty when the need arises.

Which is, I think, a good thing for a person on a quest to save the world. Hard decisions may need to be made.