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Thread: Ranger vs. Wizard
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2014-04-03, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
Pathfinder archery really only has one path, with slight variations depending on class. I guess you might classify archery bards as a different sort of path, but the feats and principles are largely the same. That one path just happens to be insanely devastating.
Any ghost touch weapon would do. Any force effect. PF silver cords are merely incorporeal. That is their only defense. it doesn't require special conditions like the 3.5e silver cords. Not sure where this meme that you can't damage incorporeal things comes from? Do your high level characters not carry some weapon or another that's been enchanted with ghost touch? Wizards usually have a low CMD--they're pretty foolish if they use Astral Projection without at least picking up Defensive Combat Training.
Alternately any magic weapon, since it still deals 50% damage to incorporeal things. The cord isn't even invisible anymore.
Pathfinder nerfs most of the "lol, I never leave my sanctum" nonsense from 3.5e. If you want to actually get things done in Pathfinder, you usually have to get up out of your chair and teleport there.Last edited by CombatOwl; 2014-04-03 at 11:36 AM.
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2014-04-03, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
Its still Invisible, its still Incorporal, and it is still Undefined asto HP and hardness. and you cant claim that Alchemical silver is usable as the standard because its not Alchemical silver.
And archery in PF isnt as effective as in 3.5. It cant be when its competition is 12d6 bonus damage per round with an armor boost, Herald of the end times, or a Fighter who in a single full attack action fires NI crossbow boltsMy Homebrew: found here.
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2014-04-03, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
Sure, but that is a solvable problem.
its still Incorporal,
and it is still Undefined asto HP and hardness.
and you cant claim that Alchemical silver is usable as the standard because its not Alchemical silver.
And archery in PF isnt as effective as in 3.5. It cant be when its competition is 12d6 bonus damage per round with an armor boost,
Herald of the end times,
or a Fighter who in a single full attack action fires NI crossbow bolts
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2014-04-03, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-04-03, 12:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-04-03, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
C)
Also, you still can't full attack on a surprise round, where as a combination of quickened spells and immediate spells would be enough to ward a wizard.
Also, the ranger could just precede his attack by shouting "Hail there, traveler!" as loudly as possible and taking surprise rounds out of the equation. You only get to act in the surprise round if there is a surprise round, and the ranger making everyone aware of his presence eliminates the surprise round entirely. The diviner ability just lets you always count as aware in surprise rounds, it doesn't guarantee a surprise round. Nothing about the ranger's ability to one-shot the wizard in a full round requires him to be hidden. The only thing that spoils it is the theoretical possibility that the wizard might have a simulacrum with shield other--which is getting rather too specific to argue that the contest is inherently in the wizard's favor.
Again, parity. The wizard would attack the ranger or put up a spell if he located the ranger.
You're getting into an awful lot of "ifs" to argue that the wizard is so superior that the contest is laughable.
Please, they don't have blind-sense at hundreds of feet.
Third level sorcerer isn't going to change that contest. The DCs are laughable for a 20th level character and the awful no-save-and-sucks at low level were taken out of Pathfinder. Best he could do is put invisibility on the wizard, but the simulacrum gets its own initiative so that doesn't matter.
The only simulacrum you've mentioned that would prevent the wizard from being killed in one round is the solar having shield other up. Which is now bringing us into some absurdly specific circumstances. Must be a diviner with a solar simulacrum holding shield other up all the time, etc. Whereas the ranger must be... a guide who learned archery. Might as well just assume the ranger has a [wizard's race] bane bow with [wizard's race] greater slaying arrows. I mean, even with shield other that wizard dies to 910 damage. Even if he makes every save he'd take 910 damage. With shield other up, that would kill both the wizard and the solar. 7 greater slaying arrows of a humanoid type is only 28,000. Totally in the price range for a 20th level ranger.
Guide doesn't even match up to the Diviner's +10 to initiative and +4 from a familiar. When speaking of potential init, the wizard seems to be winning handily. Do you have other bonuses past your higher dex that a wizard can't access?
The only assumption I am making is that the wizard is making a singular spell choice and an intelligent school choice, which is a fraction of a feat in terms of selection. I mean, for 28 kgp a wizard can have 5 simulacrums of himself as decoys. That's assuming he doesn't spend all of his free time casting Blood Money (having a Solars restore his stats and health) and making more Simulacra. This is just an example of how one spell grants a significant advantage over a ranger. I haven't otherwise touched his wibblemancy, said anything about Astral Projection, Gate, Planar Binding, Genesis, Blood Money subsidized Wishes...
To paraphrase Tippy "If a wizard makes it to level 20 without dying, he's already a better optimizer than you."
One feat with no penalty for an extra +15 damage per round? That's quite feat efficient.
More investment for a weaker bonus. That's not efficient.
Feats are for establishing how you attack.
Oh, he posted against me again. I thought he bowed out. To be fair, this is a little crazy.Last edited by Snowbluff; 2014-04-03 at 12:25 PM.
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2014-04-03, 12:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
The guy is working on a slippery slope.
Because A can happen Z will happen so don't allow A.
Also I know a Wizard can easily win initiative but he won't listen too that reasoning because Rangers have higher dex.
Also leave the Paladin vs. Ranger fight alone thank you.
CombatOwl the point isn't that the ranger can counter it. But look at what the Ranger needs too counter it. The Wizard spends some time makes something and then the Ranger needs too carry around all these things too counter just one thing.
CombatOwl you must also remember that too take a readied action the Ranger has too have a higher initiative, because that determines who acts first in a surprise round.
Also he brought up hiring another Wizard too cast dispel/Anti-Magic then attacking the wizard. And hiring a Wizard too beat the opponents wizard is somehow the ranger besting the wizard/makes the wizard balanced.
Also what is the max caster level one can make a scroll and rod. And what are the Will Saves for magic items or where are they in the book.
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2014-04-03, 01:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
I forgot Greater Manyshot and splitting, its 24d6/standard action to 4 targets with multi-designation possible. on a single target that is +344 damage/round
the other build is an arcane archer who uses spells like Fimbulwinter as a standard action to completely screw with their enemies.My Homebrew: found here.
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2014-04-03, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
Snowbluff would be right because he is right, not because he is an authority. The fact that he is an authority on the matter certainly doesn't hurt and I'd say it helps the credibility of the argument.
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2014-04-03, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
In 3.5? Damage is higher for a 3.5 archer with splitting and energy bow, which can up to +20 damage per attack.
the other build is an arcane archer who uses spells like Fimbulwinter as a standard action to completely screw with their enemies.Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
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2014-04-03, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
its +~344 from the weapon alone, i dont know what the other +7 worth of enhancements is that yields +7d6, but i accounted for the manditory +1 and Splitting.
the original, yes, but it spawned a few evolutionary builds that actually can do things that arent completely lock down the battlefield forever.Last edited by toapat; 2014-04-03 at 01:52 PM.
My Homebrew: found here.
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2014-04-03, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
Nothing I have stated here requires any of the above. The two could be standing a hundred feet apart on an open field and the ranger could still rocket tag him by winning initiative. As you point out, it would actually be easier for the Ranger in this case because he could open with a full round volley of death.
A solar is the first thing a person with Simulacrum would make when he gets the spell.
Also, how is this 11 HD solar surviving your encounters when it rolls around with shield other on all the time? Its regeneration doesn't apply against the damage from shield other, and it has fewer hit points than you do. You not only have to get an ice sculpture of a solar, you have to keep getting ice sculptures of solars every time some random encounter rolls your simulacrum. Every time that thing gets destroyed you're looking at 11,500gp lost and another quest to go carve a new ice sculpture of a solar. It's highly impractical. This was a valid strategy in 3.5e because of the easier material components, but not in Pathfinder. Simulacrums of common creatures are one thing, simulacrums of exotic ones are quite another. Even if you had a captive solar in your laboratory, that's just inviting outsiders to hassle you. Impractical.
Let us not forget also that simulacrums are still quite specifically made of ice. There is nothing in the description that even remotely suggests that they do not melt in above-freezing weather like normal ice. Admittedly, this is up to the DM since there are no first party rules on ice melting.
They have telepathy, and communicate to each other silently. It's kind of like the hive mind for drones DARPA is working on. Any creatures within an attack range or simulacrums lost could be reported to the wizard.
You have to roll a one sometime. 100 of these is only 50 kgp.
If I was aware of the attack, I would totally have them spam things like grease on ranger's equipment.
You mean a guide in his favored terrain who happens to have the... wait, no master hunter? Even with readied shots on "casts a spell," this sucks.
You can't kill the wizard in a standard action, and that's assuming he's done nothing to avoid being ambushed.
Guide doesn't even match up to the Diviner's +10 to initiative and +4 from a familiar.
When speaking of potential init, the wizard seems to be winning handily. Do you have other bonuses past your higher dex that a wizard can't access?
The only assumption I am making is that the wizard is making a singular spell choice and an intelligent school choice,
which is a fraction of a feat in terms of selection. I mean, for 28 kgp a wizard can have 5 simulacrums of himself as decoys.
That's assuming he doesn't spend all of his free time casting Blood Money (having a Solars restore his stats and health) and making more Simulacra. This is just an example of how one spell grants a significant advantage over a ranger. I haven't otherwise touched his wibblemancy, said anything about Astral Projection, Gate, Planar Binding, Genesis, Blood Money subsidized Wishes...
To paraphrase Tippy "If a wizard makes it to level 20 without dying, he's already a better optimizer than you."
You would have to hit with each attack, at -2 and iterative penalties,
with the highest damage attack being done with the large penalty. If you do the math, I think the damage falls short quite easily.
Oh, he posted against me again. I thought he bowed out. To be fair, this is a little crazy.
Wizards aren't high tier because of their combat potential, they're high tier because of their versatility. There's lots of stuff that can kick the **** out of them in a straight numbers game. Rangers included. Wizards are Tier 1 because they can avoid this ever happening, but were it to happen, it's pretty clear the ranger could very easily kill the wizard or at least force them to emergency teleport out.
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2014-04-03, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
To go the other way, I do this frequently. Sometimes a person's argument against me is so convoluted and nonsensical there's no point to addressing some portion of it. Much like at a trial, the defense and prosecution don't go back and forth ad nauseum, sometimes the crossexamination simply doesn't do enough to contest their point, so you ignore it.
I only address the items I feel need to be addressed in any given post.
(With the same caveat as before - I didn't read the argument in question.)
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2014-04-03, 02:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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2014-04-03, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
Rangers get some stupid class bonuses to initiative if you keep terrain bond up. Which, at level 20, is totally doable. Wardens specifically are right up there with diviners. Literally the diviner gets a +14 init bonus from his class @ 20, the Warden gets a +12 @ 20. They both have the same ability to automatically take 20 an initiative check. It seems reasonable to assume that an archery focused character can squeak out an extra +2 or +3 over the wizard regarding dex. They can both do stupid things with initiative.
CombatOwl the point isn't that the ranger can counter it. But look at what the Ranger needs too counter it.
The Wizard spends some time makes something and then the Ranger needs too carry around all these things too counter just one thing.
CombatOwl you must also remember that too take a readied action the Ranger has too have a higher initiative, because that determines who acts first in a surprise round.
Also he brought up hiring another Wizard too cast dispel/Anti-Magic then attacking the wizard. And hiring a Wizard too beat the opponents wizard is somehow the ranger besting the wizard/makes the wizard balanced.
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2014-04-03, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
PF, irrelevant
Both of them have ludicrous initiative, and it's very likely the archer's is one or two higher than the wizard. Which is important, since the initiative is automatic here.
I never mentioned a damn thing about hiring anyone. Requirements for killing a wizard: the martial archery build, the warden archetype, a ****ty +2 speed bow, being 20th level. Those are actually the only things I've made a requirement here. If the wizard isn't a diviner, then you can pick pretty much any archer archetype instead.I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.
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2014-04-03, 02:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
Last edited by CombatOwl; 2014-04-03 at 02:27 PM.
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2014-04-03, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
Wow, these posts are bloated. Thanks, Talya.
Read Simulacrum. 500 GP per HD of the simulacrum, not of the original creature.
Read Bloody Money. I don't have to pay for the simulacra. Not really.
As for buying wizard services, that's not the ranger winning. We know this.
For the numbers game thing, I don't know about optimizing wizard AC. I know he can match all but ~12 of the ranger's dex. He can carry all the same items for init, too. Wearing some armor with reduced ASF (Arcane Armor Training? Maybe), using Limited Wish to buff the AC of the Buckler and Armor. When all is said and done, the Ranger shouldn't have 100% to hit.
Hammer the Gap is actually a seperate argument. If you want, I can crunch the numbers and give a numerical objective level of how good/bad it is. 18+10+6= 34 dex, with a 14 bonus, 20 BAB, +5 from weapon sounds good, right?Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
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2014-04-03, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
Fine, he buys cleric services. At 20th level it's about your treasure and initiative bonus anyway.
For the numbers game thing, I don't know about optimizing wizard AC. I know he can match all but ~12 of the ranger's dex. He can carry all the same items for init, too. Wearing some armor with reduced ASF (Arcane Armor Training? Maybe), using Limited Wish to buff the AC of the Buckler and Armor. When all is said and done, the Ranger shouldn't have 100% to hit.
Hammer the Gap is actually a seperate argument. If you want, I can crunch the numbers and give a numerical objective level of how good/bad it is. 18+10+6= 34 dex, with a 14 bonus, 20 BAB, +5 from weapon sounds good, right?
The problem here is that it's not actually required for this scenario. Even if you didn't take hammer the gap, even if you don't have favored enemy bonuses, even if you haven't boosted your strength with tomes, even if you use a ****ty +2 speed bow, it's still doing enough damage to kill a wizard who started with 16 con (who has a +6 con item), on average. Rangers aren't even particularly good archers in PF without their favored enemy bonus, and even a bad archer is enough to kill a wizard with optimal HP at the level. Admittedly, if it was another class, the initiative would be a problem--the wizard would be able to flee or wind wall to save himself. But the particular case given here--a pathfinder ranger with Warden faces a pathfinder wizard (diviner) without anything but very long term buffs up... the ranger has good odds of being able to win that combat. Because he's probably going to edge out the wizard by +1 or +2 init and can throw enough damage to win. It is possible that the last shot misses, in which case the wizard will likely be able to turn that around on the archer.
Even being generous here, that wizard can easily get rocket tagged in this encounter. It's not a slam dunk victory as was originally portrayed. Absolutely the wizard has more options on how to deal with this or avoid it--that's the point of a wizard. But they certainly are not the kings of the combat numbers game.
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2014-04-03, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
I don't care CombatOwl... go whine about that somewhere else not here.
This is 3/3.5 because that is the system in question, pathfinder is irrelevant too this.
Finally your assuming the Ranger with a bow setup too counter all wizard defenses. Which is kind of hard.
Also the Wizard at level 20 doesn't go out and adventure he hides away he can bring out armies with summon. Gate in a Solar too fight for him and leave directions too an Astral Projection
I was also talking about the guy who is claiming a Ranger beats a Wizard. His solution or at least one of them was hiring a Wizard.
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2014-04-03, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
*facedesk* That's not any better. Not a win for the Ranger, either.
It is unlikely that an optimized wizard will use ASF, because it requires a swift action to use meaning no quickened spells. You put on bracers of armor and a ring of protection and that's about all you get. It's not very high. Exactly where it is depends on how much you want to spend on what is usually irrelevant protections. It is possible that the last arrow has a reasonable chance of missing. However, I was also not considering critical hits in that calculation. That's probably a wash since he'd be using a 19-20/x3 weapon and will almost certainly confirm any earlier crits.
Not really much of a point. It's widely regarded as extremely feat efficient because it's a fair bit of extra damage that costs nothing but a feat. 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 is still +15, even if the last hit misses--which is really the only one likely to miss.
Numbers are something I am not to concerned with in the end. You can claim Numbers King, but that was never what made a Wizard good.Last edited by Snowbluff; 2014-04-03 at 03:13 PM.
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2014-04-03, 03:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.
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2014-04-03, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
My Homebrew: found here.
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PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.
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2014-04-03, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
But... Lex Luthor is physically stronger than Superman because he can buy Kryptonite!
Last edited by Talya; 2014-04-03 at 03:28 PM.
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
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2014-04-03, 03:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
I follow a general rule: better to ask and be told no than not to ask at all.
Shadeblight by KennyPyro
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2014-04-03, 03:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
My Homebrew: found here.
When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes
PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.
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2014-04-03, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ranger vs. Wizard
Why not? It's using an option at his disposal. I mean, if you want to argue about all these long term buffs and such--bonuses and creatures that last for days--you kind of have to acknowledge that the ranger could just devote some of his treasure to the task of solving that deficiency.
Bracers of Armor? Maybe, depending on the build. +8 bracers +5 Nat Armor, +5 def, +6 Shield from mithril buckler (Magic Vestment Limited Wish), some dexterity mod(variable, but at least 21 dexterity) isn't much, though. This turns out to be 38ish. 51 would be a desirable , but iteratives past the second attack can miss without a 1.
I don't care how you use it. This is a bit about PF feats, which agitate me. I was going to run the numbers with the average values of AC at various level to determine how much damage it actually adds, or at least determine the odds it actually does 15 damage (which relies on many conditional calculations). All to show why a 3.5 exclusive feat is better.
Numbers are something I am not to concerned with in the end. You can claim Numbers King, but that was never what made a Wizard good.
So, is equipment allowed? Because if it is, he can buy one-use items or 1/day items to fill his spellcasting needs. Arguing 20th level characters without considering what their gold brings to the table is silly. The class features don't exist in a vacuum--actual characters have equipment to fill in weak points.Last edited by CombatOwl; 2014-04-03 at 04:46 PM.