EMPIRE! CWBG VII: Dancing With Headless Princesses! (Fish, Saffron & Ginger Edition)

[lt_murgen]

Just a heads up, rumors abound that Crown Prince Rion Hazael is a political animal, and has ideas to create a Constitutional Monarchy. It looks like the Triumvirate is going all in, while Celero is trying it's hand at a democratic state.

Aww crap. Looks like his future wife is already rubbing off on him.....

[TheWombatOfDoom]

There's also the idea of setting up a court to try nations that violate specific actions deemed crimes by the group. The trick is deciding what is a crime, what qualifies as punishment, and how they will be tried.

[zabbarot]

Though, on the matter of the Shahidi Mkuu, it would be interesting if they were reborn in the territory of Ashenia, the idea of reincarnation being considered blasphemous and the Radurjic faith illegal and all that...

These are things that I consider when deciding where to reincarnate : P The place I'm looking at now might cause some political upheaval, still working it out. Ashenia would probably be a dangerous place though... both for the Shahidi Mkuu and Ashenia, should something go wrong.

[QuintonBeck]

Excellent. An unexpected and potentially hilarious loophole closed.

In any case, all things considered, it's probably best to slowly ease into a new system of governance rather than rush things. And besides, this exciting new experiment in the lands of the Triumvirate should help to determine whether or not the parliamentary system I was thinking of introducing at some point will be a wise idea. As such, I applaud your initiative in volunteering to make the first step.

Though, on the matter of the Shahidi Mkuu, it would be interesting if they were reborn in the territory of Ashenia, the idea of reincarnation being considered blasphemous and the Radurjic faith illegal and all that...

Thanks for pointing it out as well. That could be been far too interesting

I figure the same OOC. Without a violent revolution its not too easy to change governance too drastically. That said, it doesn't mean some of the more enthusiastic new wave thinkers aren't experiencing a rush and desire to change more. That'll likely die down a tad once the first wave of Democrats (which I'm thinking of calling the Shaeldtae loyal party because all the good party names exist already) dies off or retires but it'll probably have a resurgence at some point.

I'm glad some other nations are looking at the new structure with a potentially appraising eye. I figure its kinda a mashup of the Roman Republic and early US governance at this point, mixed with some monarchial flavor in various areas, and a zest of reincarnating Pope to finish.

I've been under the assumption Morph was going to have the next reincarnation be in Ashenia or Salterri/Priory lands for a while now purely for the lulz and would be shocked beyond all reason if the next Shahidi Mkuu was born anywhere with even an inkling of Radurjic leanings

The court idea is alright, but very reactionary and therefore kinda slow leaving gaps where some nation might just go ahead and react without going to the court for speed's sake rather than waste time/an action going there to petition anything.

[zabbarot]

Ok... so looking at what Quinton and Imp said I know realize that nobody had any idea that I chose where Mosi was reincarnated. >.>

Morph had nothing to do with it outside of giving me the ok It was planned between Zap and myself because he was interested in converting his nations and it was a good springboard.

[QuintonBeck]

Ok... so looking at what Quinton and Imp said I know realize that nobody had any idea that I chose where Mosi was reincarnated. >.>

Morph had nothing to do with it outside of giving me the ok It was planned between Zap and myself because he was interested in converting his nations and it was a good springboard.

How did this never come up in our conversations?

[zabbarot]

How did this never come up in our conversations?

Because it's more fun to surprise people. I'm still not going to tell you where I'm going next.

[ImperatorV]

Because it's more fun to surprise people. I'm still not going to tell you where I'm going next.

...No fair, now I want a secret thing to spring on you two.

[Logic]

No surprise, the plan to build a UN is going about as well as it did in the real world.

Hopefully, it is all IC drama, and no one is actually getting upset over this.

[QuintonBeck]

I for one am not. I enjoy a little IC friction and establishing a UN is super difficult, especially at the level of world advancement we're at at this point.

Also, zab, you stinker!

[Aedilred]

Well this is going well. Good old Tupelo, still causing problems 25 years on...

[QuintonBeck]

Well this is going well. Good old Tupelo, still causing problems 25 years on...

Revolutionaries do tend to do that sometimes.

Anyway, I figure its time to start debating some international relations theory. Who knew my International Relations Poli Sci class freshman year would be relevant to a forum game...

[Logic]

Revolutionaries do tend to do that sometimes.

Anyway, I figure its time to start debating some international relations theory. Who knew my International Relations Poli Sci class freshman year would be relevant to a forum game...

A game of the year edition, that's who knew.

[lt_murgen]

Well this is going well. Good old Tupelo, still causing problems 25 years on...

giggle giggle snort giggle.....

[Morph Bark]

Unless a rule can exist in which raised units can be put forward into a Security Council's (for lack of a better word) control (assuming it would be some sort of vote thing among member nations on what to do with them in times of need) rather than still under the direct jurisdiction of a nation I question whether any such proposal could be anything more than whoever has the biggest guns directing "world peace" as they see it.

Isn't that kind of what happens in the real world? Except that when they get sent by the UN they just wear different helmets. (I should prolly not go further into that subject matter.)

Do NOT give Morph any ideas please.

I was thinking the next reincarnation should be a baby in Tzalteclan. Then one year later in Ashenia maybe.

The "upon death of character X" events are there for a reason. I was thinking it'd be cool to have multiple candidates for Mosi and the BA to still have a bit of an investigative event bit to it, rather than "ohey white eyes, here's your Mosi, have fun". Zab might well have different ideas for that though, and I haven't discussed with him on including anything for Mosi in the "upon death" events.

[TheDarkDM]

Isn't that kind of what happens in the real world? Except that when they get sent by the UN they just wear different helmets. (I should prolly not go further into that subject matter.)

The only distinction is that UN peacekeepers remain under the command of their respective national militaries. I think what's being proposed at the council is an independent security force a la most anime interpretations of the UN.

[Morph Bark]

most anime interpretations of the UN.

Considering that's a safe subject: what? There's anime involving that?

[TheDarkDM]

Considering that's a safe subject: what? There's anime involving that?

In my experience, it's pretty common in certain types of anime (which, looking into it, seem to be giant robot anime almost exclusively, so oops on the "most" in my above post) for the UN or UN stand-in to be less "global debate forum" and more "world government", with all the power that implies. Evangelion is the first example that comes to mind.

There's even a tropes page.

[Aedilred]

Part of the problem with a court/international reaction force, etc. is that it's really slow, at least as far as this game goes. This is partly an OOC issue, but it has major IC implications. If every time anyone wants to do anything with a major international impact it has to be put through a UN-esque procedure, it's realistically going to take a minimum of five years and most likely at least ten by the time a summit has been convened and people have arranged the actions to commit resources to deal with it. This doesn't just provide RP problems but it also has an impact on the actual ability to resolve the problem, since even if we decide to take action it buys the "respondent" party time to raise more troops and militias, spread their faith if that's what they're after, and so forth.

To take everyone's favourite example, Tupelo, Murgen was considerate enough to have him usurp the throne at almost the end of the round, which meant we were able to kill him off quite quickly IC in the following round. But if he'd done so at an earlier date in the round, and we'd had to wait until the following round before calling an international summit, then it's all starting to drag a bit. Moreover, Tupelo would have been able to do at least one round of conversions, which, if successful, could well have led to the more laissez-faire nations going "ah, leave it" on the basis not that his actions were right but that they would cause more trouble than it was worth. As it happens the movement to take him down was actually pretty international (we had representatives from five PCs on the assassin team, and support from at least one more) but because it was arranged unofficially we were able to act on it quickly.

This is of course an actual real-life IC problem to an extent too: of course it's going to take longer to do things through official channels. But the way the game is set up at the moment means it would take not just a bit longer (a few weeks/months) but a whole lot longer - too much really (several years) - and I think it's something that would need to be borne in mind for anything we set up at the Summit.

There doesn't seem to be much agreement on anything so far, though.

[lt_murgen]

Ahh, yes, arguing in the senate before there even IS a senate. Excellent! Palpatine Opus steeples his fingers.

[Morph Bark]

Excellent.

Also, one would have expected Woodwind to primarily feature, y'know, music that their name might reflect.

[QuintonBeck]

Pavonian music favors drums and lots of brass instruments. Stringed instruments are sometimes favored for storytelling, while woodwinds are very rare.

On a totally different note, the Qzare is getting some mixed messages from Pavonia about their blockade. Gilgamesh himself is officially Very Annoyed, but he's pragmatic enough to admit that it is a legitimate military tactic (which he's used himself in the past), and is willing to set up a secondary trade with the Qzare along the lines suggested (goats for hellstone). Keep in mind that this is in addition to the trade agreement with Quinton, it doesn't replace it.

I don't imagine the blockade can reasonably be sustained next round since its presumably connected to Zhuang. Once that clears up I'd be happy to continue our trade and set up something for the Sulphur.

@Woodwind, you would expect that, but nope.

@The Summit: Yeah, OOC I can't see how an actual council could sustain itself since it would take rounds and rounds to do anything internationally. (Again, not going to stray into Real World politics :P) I think the track of trying to establish a set of laws to be enforced internationally across borders may be the best thing that comes out of this (and may not actually take off all over) Unless aliens invade (and probably not even then) I don't think Telluris is going to sign on to a world government or even a UN.

[lt_murgen]

I think the track of trying to establish a set of laws to be enforced internationally across borders may be the best thing that comes out of this (and may not actually take off all over) Unless aliens invade (and probably not even then) I don't think Telluris is going to sign on to a world government or even a UN.

That is the direction Opus is trying to steer things- so his future inlaws can save some face.

[QuintonBeck]

Now what poor sucker is going to get stuck with actually writing out some long winded treaty regarding extradition of criminals and technological rights and blah blah blah? Not it!

[lt_murgen]

Now what poor sucker is going to get stuck with actually writing out some long winded treaty regarding extradition of criminals and technological rights and blah blah blah? Not it!

Well, I have an 8 hour drive, all by my self, to make tomorrow, so I could probably work out some general details, but honestly it doesn't need to be written in detail, just some general point of agreement IC- then the rulers let all the sages and scribes go to work on the details.

[Aedilred]

I just checked the Geneva Convention on prisoners of war and, man, is it long. Obviously some of it will not be applicable since it was designed for modern warfare: I doubt many of our armies have proper uniforms, carry ID, have serial numbers, etc. The key points there that we should probably transfer across I think are:

• Prisoners should not be killed, injured, tortured or subjected to non-consensual invasive or experimental procedures.
• Sick and wounded prisoners should be treated in the same manner as sick and wounded soldiers of the detaining power.
• Prisoners should be accorded the same civil dignities as in their country of origin.
• Collective punishment is forbidden.
• Prisoners (including civilian prisoners) should not be pressed into service against their originating state.
• Prisoners (including civilian prisoners) should not be used as hostages.

There is obviously a whole bunch more but that might be enough for our purposes. I might also include a mandatory offer of parole (in a classic sense) for officers, noblemen etc. - i.e. they are allowed to remain practically at liberty (within the town or camp designated as their prison) and in possession of their weapons so long as they give their word not to escape or harm their captors. Obviously if they break their word they forfeit their rights (and if in doing so they kill or attack anyone they can be prosecuted for that as a crime).

I don't think any of the above should be controversial, but I'm prepared to be surprised.

On religion, my proposed stipulation would essentially be that all religious activity is subject to the secular law of whatever territory it takes place in.

On technology and extradition, I'm interested to see what peoples' views are. I don't anticipate reaching a consensus on that (or on religion, for that matter).


Also, Silverbit, your inbox is full.

[QuintonBeck]

Probably be easier to get signatures for Parole doesn't include letting the high ranking fellow keep his weapon. I know it was done back in the day and generally honor upheld things, but ever since the BA's assassination people have been jumpy about letting rulers carry weapons so trusting officers as prisoners during a war might be a stretch.

On religion perhaps a clause that any actions taken in the name of a religion to harm or kill a sentient being ought to be considered unacceptable and the religion in question dealt with by the state possessing it with ability to request assistance with such matters? I can see that being disputed of course.

I think extradition could go over well enough (though any nation that isn't at this Summit could become a haven of outlaws) but technological rights is more questionable whether a consensus can be met or not. There's a stark contrast between those who clamp down on all their techs and others who trade and spread them liberally and that's probably going to prevent much in the way of compromise coming there.

[TheDarkDM]

On religion perhaps a clause that any actions taken in the name of a religion to harm or kill a sentient being ought to be considered unacceptable and the religion in question dealt with by the state possessing it with ability to request assistance with such matters? I can see that being disputed of course.

Hahahahahahahaha...

Oh, you were serious.

[QuintonBeck]

Hahahahahahahaha...

Oh, you were serious.

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting about the ritual slaughter and rampant slavery in Tzalteclan. Meh, I'm not near it

[TheDarkDM]

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting about the ritual slaughter and rampant slavery in Tzalteclan. Meh, I'm not near it

And my neighbors are cool with it, so it works out.