LGBTAI+ 51: Lay That Hammer Down!

[Lentrax]

Spoiler: New Thor!

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Yes, like they actually thought about what a very strong woman might typically look like!



Me too!

Was it me? Or is there another genderbending Thor here? Here is me:

Spoiler: Genderbent-Feminist-Thor-Kender

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I totally meant you, Kender. I don't know anyone else who could pull it off.

[KenderWizard]

We had female Thor before Marvel. Wait, did Marvel steal our idea?

Note to self, add Kender to the list of people with beautiful eyes.

I guess they did! And thank you!

I totally meant you, Kender. I don't know anyone else who could pull it off.

Thanks, Lentrax! I try! (Missed you while on my hiatus, btw!)

[Remmirath]

Wow, I really have been gone a while. There's an LGBTQ+ support thread now? And it's in the fifty-first iteration?

Y'all don't know me (except possibly Serpentine? Hi again!), but allow me to offer internet hugs for you all, and lots of cake. Carry on, people. Carry on.

The support thread's been here quite a long time, I believe. I think it was here before I joined the forums at all. The question thread is new, though. I think that's in it's first iteration.

Anyhow, I remember you (albeit mostly from art threads)! Feel free to drop in every now and then. Lots of people do that.

I did hear about the whole Thor thing earlier! I can only imagine the massive **** the internet is going to flip over this (or is already flipping-- I sure as hell ain't gonna be the one to look).

The reactions I've seen thus far have ranged from "cool" to "y'know, they already had cool female characters, so I don't know why they aren't making more use of those instead". Of course, those are only amongst people I know, so there are probably worse reactions out there. Me, I've never read any of those comics, so all I could really comment on is the design. Which, typical glaring armour issues aside, seems as reasonable as any other superhero design. At least she looks fairly strong.

And wow, the Thor thing. Cool. O_o Makes me really wish the preview of the character design hadn't gone for an *ahem* breastplate yet again. I swear, these people forget all about how actual armour and blow deflection works the moment boobies are involved.

Yeah, that's a ridiculous armour design. I suppose one could say that on the bright side it actually covers the whole chest, but that really shouldn't be the bright side. Is it truly so hard to draw armour that looks as though it could actually at least work?

I suppose I don't care as much as I usually would because of the genre, though. I don't know of any superheroes who wear anything resembling legitimate armour, so it's not unusual. Not that I've read very many comics in that genre -- for all I know, there are some out there who do typically wear reasonable armour.

Edit: My only concern with the Thor thingamabob is my eternal sadness at the complete lack of respect shown to the original norse mythology. But the authors can dance on the edda's ashes as easily with a female thor as a male one.

Yeah, that's honestly my main feeling on the whole comic-book-Thor thing.

[SiuiS]

SL = SecondLife. I use the Firestorm client myself because it's more stable and gives more graphical bang for your processing buck than the shoddy official client.

I hope that weirdness wasn't directed at SL (or at me for being in SL) :<
That would make me very sad.

Oh, no. I don't actually remember what the weirdness was, but it was more a conversational quirk. Like, a coincidence or déjà vu or something.


Transcending Internet, and the world! take that Internet jerks.

The reactions I've seen thus far have ranged from "cool" to "y'know, they already had cool female characters, so I don't know why they aren't making more use of those instead". Of course, those are only amongst people I know, so there are probably worse reactions out there. Me, I've never read any of those comics, so all I could really comment on is the design. Which, typical glaring armour issues aside, seems as reasonable as any other superhero design. At least she looks fairly strong.

That's a good point. At least it's constructive to ask, though.
I believe the benefits of this outweigh the benefits of just pushing someone else to the front. This speaks of equality directly, rather than the usual separate but equal feel.

[Miriel]

Humpf... Yesterday and today, I was an extra for what seems to be an important LGBT movie. I don't know how much I'm supposed to have the right to say, and I won't say names and stuff even though they are completely guessable because I'd rather not know If I'm allowed to, but I need to talk and stuff, because although it seemed potentially fun, as a trans person, it was a fairly bad experience...

Spoiler

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Okay, so the movie is about the Stonewall riots. I knew about it because they were looking for trans extras.

A lot of the people were fine. Especially, the person who seemed in charge of the extras was especially nice and seemed to think I, as a trans woman, was meaningful and important -- I always ended up in a fairly visible position when she took decisions. And so on. However, because I can't be there tomorrow, I was taken out of the group of people who are inside the bar. And apparently, the director wants all trans people to be in bar as they should all get arrested or something. So I was told I was not needed, because I can't just be around somewhere and do random stuff, I need to be arrested because I'm a trans woman -- which is strange, because there are visibly effeminate gay people outside, and there is no reason for there to be no trans women near an important spot for gay and trans people, and I'm fairly sure the police didn't arrest all trans people in the neighbourhood in 1969. Many people said they were sad and didn't understand why the director wanted that.

I was paid anyway -- the money is nice, but I would much prefer good representations of trans women to some money.

Also, I got little respect as a trans woman. Some people where fine, but others were weird (not actively transphobic, just... they made me feel bad). The director used "he" and said I was a drag queen. Other people did that too, and it's sort of understandable as there were drag queens and stuff, but it was fairly alienating, especially since it happened so repeatedly.

[Lord Raziere]

Oh, no. I don't actually remember what the weirdness was, but it was more a conversational quirk. Like, a coincidence or déjà vu or something.


Transcending Internet, and the world! take that Internet jerks.

Wait, 40,000 year old sculpture you say?

I now have an idea to make Furryhammer 40,000. no matter how much that doesn't actually make any sense. I think the God-Emperor would be a lionman, or the God-Emperor of Lionkind. would certainly fit him. this would of course mean that all Space Marines would in some way be large predator catmen, which is oddly fitting. aside from Space Wolves. they're wolves.

[Ifni]

@Caroline:

Spoiler

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Also, I got little respect as a trans woman. Some people where fine, but others were weird (not actively transphobic, just... they made me feel bad). The director used "he" and said I was a drag queen. Other people did that too, and it's sort of understandable as there were drag queens and stuff, but it was fairly alienating, especially since it happened so repeatedly.

That sounds pretty horrible You shouldn't have to go through that, and it sounds like the director should've educated himself a bit better. Hugs if you would like them.

[golentan]

Non-trans folks, I was wondering. If you could swap gender/sex just to try it, would you do so?

aside from Space Wolves. they're wolves.

Wielding their wolf-bolters on their wolf packs of wolf tanks which are airwolfed into the wolves' hunting ground by their wolfship the Woofing Wolf. I'm not sure you could make the space wolves any more wolfy by putting them in a furry variation of the setting. Also, wolf totally stopped looking like a real word to me.

[Jaycemonde]

I'm not sure you could make the space wolves any more wolfy by putting them in a furry variation of the setting.

Wait, 40,000 year old sculpture you say?

I now have an idea to make Furryhammer 40,000. no matter how much that doesn't actually make any sense.

The Imperium [canonically] has lots of talking animal people living in it. It's just that they're second-class citizens at best and cattle for feeding the penal population at worst.

I mean, there are exceptions, but the number of planets on which they have equal or above-human rights is like 1-5%.

Oh, no. I don't actually remember what the weirdness was, but it was more a conversational quirk. Like, a coincidence or déjà vu or something.

Oh. Yay! Maybe that means you do have an account!

Transcending Internet, and the world! take that Internet jerks.

I love it when we (talking animal people, be it four-legged or two-) turn out to be more in touch with history and culture than *******s on 4chan or whatever.

[Coidzor]

Spoiler: WH40k, Furhammer40k.

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Furries are traditionally aligned with Chaos amongst the WH40K fandom, IIRC. So leaving them out, especially the traitor legions, would be a serious oversight.

I haven't a freaking clue what you'd make Orks into, since making them back into pig men would sort of defeat the point.

I now have an idea to make Furryhammer 40,000. no matter how much that doesn't actually make any sense. I think the God-Emperor would be a lionman, or the God-Emperor of Lionkind. would certainly fit him. this would of course mean that all Space Marines would in some way be large predator catmen, which is oddly fitting. aside from Space Wolves. they're wolves.

What, no bears?

Also, wolf totally stopped looking like a real word to me.

Yeeep.

Humpf... Yesterday and today, I was an extra for what seems to be an important LGBT movie. I don't know how much I'm supposed to have the right to say, and I won't say names and stuff even though they are completely guessable because I'd rather not know If I'm allowed to, but I need to talk and stuff, because although it seemed potentially fun, as a trans person, it was a fairly bad experience...

Spoiler

Show

Okay, so the movie is about the Stonewall riots. I knew about it because they were looking for trans extras.

A lot of the people were fine. Especially, the person who seemed in charge of the extras was especially nice and seemed to think I, as a trans woman, was meaningful and important -- I always ended up in a fairly visible position when she took decisions. And so on. However, because I can't be there tomorrow, I was taken out of the group of people who are inside the bar. And apparently, the director wants all trans people to be in bar as they should all get arrested or something. So I was told I was not needed, because I can't just be around somewhere and do random stuff, I need to be arrested because I'm a trans woman -- which is strange, because there are visibly effeminate gay people outside, and there is no reason for there to be no trans women near an important spot for gay and trans people, and I'm fairly sure the police didn't arrest all trans people in the neighbourhood in 1969. Many people said they were sad and didn't understand why the director wanted that.

I was paid anyway -- the money is nice, but I would much prefer good representations of trans women to some money.

Also, I got little respect as a trans woman. Some people where fine, but others were weird (not actively transphobic, just... they made me feel bad). The director used "he" and said I was a drag queen. Other people did that too, and it's sort of understandable as there were drag queens and stuff, but it was fairly alienating, especially since it happened so repeatedly.

Well that's crappy. It's bad enough from the general population, but that level of ignorance from a director is just bad news for a film that's got any pretense of informing people of anything.

Non-trans folks, I was wondering. If you could swap gender/sex just to try it, would you do so?

Depends upon how much I trust the people and technology involved after reading the latest version of the war between the sexes on Kotaku. Or was it io9?

The posing of existential questions to gynophile friends and associates would be interesting though, I suppose.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: WH40k, Furhammer40k.

Show

Furries are traditionally aligned with Chaos amongst the WH40K fandom, IIRC. So leaving them out, especially the traitor legions, would be a serious oversight.

I haven't a freaking clue what you'd make Orks into, since making them back into pig men would sort of defeat the point.

What, no bears?

Spoiler: furhammer 40k

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Orkz would BE the bears. all the bears. don't tell me Beerz going around yelling "HUNNEE!" wouldn't be funny. while these loners called Beerbeerians go on a quest to find all the best beer. other furries would call them Bearbearians, or Bearbeerians, or beerbearians.....

[KyooTrap]

I feel like I don't pass and that I never will. I'm already 3 months on HRT, is there even a point to continue if I started out manlier than The Mountain? :/ here's where I'm at already :/ http://imgur.com/DoSDehF.jpg

[Ravens_cry]

I feel like I don't pass and that I never will. I'm already 3 months on HRT, is there even a point to continue if I started out manlier than The Mountain? :/ here's where I'm at already :/ http://imgur.com/DoSDehF.jpg

Hun, you pass for me. You remind me of Marigold from Questionable Content. I love your hair.

[Comrade]

I feel like I don't pass and that I never will. I'm already 3 months on HRT, is there even a point to continue if I started out manlier than The Mountain? :/ here's where I'm at already :/ http://imgur.com/DoSDehF.jpg

I can definitely understand where you're coming from when it comes to feeling like you'll never be able to pass no matter what you do, but honestly? From that one picture, I don't think you need to be worried about that. Like Ravens_cry said, you're certainly passing to my eyes. And I've got pretty damn good eyes! When I wear my glasses, anyway. Without 'em everything around me might as well be a Dali landscape. But no worries, I've got 'em on, and you look great!

[SiuiS]

I do not have a second life, no. I have very little independent contact with anyone ever, for reasons. So while I have a Skype account, I am not supposed to give it out, or turn it on, or talk to people with it kind of deal.

Non-trans folks, I was wondering. If you could swap gender/sex just to try it, would you do so?

Do not grok.
Would I accept being comfortable in body? No.
Would I accept sudden change of body? Yes. Yes I would accept functioning bleedy gibblies.

I feel like I don't pass and that I never will. I'm already 3 months on HRT, is there even a point to continue if I started out manlier than The Mountain? :/ here's where I'm at already :/ http://imgur.com/DoSDehF.jpg

You're doin' fine, hon. Ne'er fear.

[Jaycemonde]

I do not have a second life, no. I have very little independent contact with anyone ever, for reasons. So while I have a Skype account, I am not supposed to give it out, or turn it on, or talk to people with it kind of deal.

Outside of IMs, which are more for talking to someone who's in another sim/region out of convenience than any kind of privacy (for most people, anyway), I think it's hard to imagine any part of communicating in SL to be "independent contact". Just yesterday I was in a music club (with a live DJ, which was cool--they even have their own radio app) with like fifty other people. Or it was fifty at the height of my stay, which lasted about three hours. At another point it dwindled to eleven. The number of people in a sim can vary wildly depending on what it's used for and the time of day.
Converse example, the Transgender Lounge I go to sometimes (it's really nice, has a little memorial fountain with candles outside and generally gives off an olde englishe countryeside feel) never seems to have more than two or three people in it at a time--if that--even though the group chat flashes up on my chat window every couple of minutes because someone said something.

[CWater]

Hi Kaytara! I join the choir who says your art is awesome!

Non-trans folks, I was wondering. If you could swap gender/sex just to try it, would you do so?

Probably not.. I've just in recent years, after I turned 20, managed to become comfortable with my own body (which is female), and a sudden change like that would probably be an unpleasant experience for me. (Though I have never been a man, so I guess wouldn't know.)

But the whole thing of sex/gender has made me more or less uncomfortable ever since I hit puberty. If there was such an option, I wish I would not have to have either of those. I think that would be nice, since I don't think I have much of a gender identity deep down. I consider myself to be a woman because I've gotten used to it.

[noparlpf]

Non-trans folks, I was wondering. If you could swap gender/sex just to try it, would you do so?

I would definitely try it. Sounds interesting. Though it's hard to know whether a cis person would experience dysphoria in the wrong body, so that would be interesting to find out too.

[Miriel]

I feel like I don't pass and that I never will. I'm already 3 months on HRT, is there even a point to continue if I started out manlier than The Mountain? :/ here's where I'm at already :/ http://imgur.com/DoSDehF.jpg

Totally passing.

And also, cute!

@Caroline:

Spoiler

Show

That sounds pretty horrible You shouldn't have to go through that, and it sounds like the director should've educated himself a bit better. Hugs if you would like them.

Well that's crappy. It's bad enough from the general population, but that level of ignorance from a director is just bad news for a film that's got any pretense of informing people of anything.

I guess he cares more about LGB than T stuff? I don't know. Anyway, as a lowly extra, it's impressive I even talked to the actual director. And that was about something like "Is he a drag queen?", which was fairly unpleasant.

I won't comment on the whole movie or dismiss the whole movie, as I don't know what the result will be and the result is what matters. And several people really wanted me somewhere, as I said. But yeah. I am fairly unsatisfied at how I was treated, especially given that I was on the set of an LGBT movie.

I still feel like an impostor in many ways... I feel sort of bad for getting my politics and activism into this. I was just there for the ride, and I was paid, after all. But then, isn't any movie about such an event political to start with? And the fact that I was almost crying even before they cut me out should be meaningful.

The other extras were nice (as were, as I said, several people on set -- I even got a wink from one of the actors!). Many people had never seen a trans person before, and I got lots of (almost always respectful) questions, which is fine because I'm the kind of person who likes educating people and stuff, within reason at least.

[noparlpf]

I feel like I don't pass and that I never will. I'm already 3 months on HRT, is there even a point to continue if I started out manlier than The Mountain? :/ here's where I'm at already :/ http://imgur.com/DoSDehF.jpg

If I just passed you on the street and you looked like that I'd assume you were a woman. Or girl. Not sure, you look youngish.


Okay, so, I have a question that might be related to the A and might belong in relationship woes if coworker relationships count as relationships. What do you do when a coworker keeps talking to you about sexual things because you're another guy and he thinks all guys are into that stuff?

[Coidzor]

Spoiler: KyooTrap, picture, passing, the actor playing Gregor Clegane

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I feel like I don't pass and that I never will. I'm already 3 months on HRT, is there even a point to continue if I started out manlier than The Mountain? :/ here's where I'm at already :/ http://imgur.com/DoSDehF.jpg

You look like a person of the female persuasion.

You certainly don't look like you started out manlier than Mr. Björnsson. And, if so, the change is all the more... impressive, really.

Spoiler: noparlpf, coworker

Show

Okay, so, I have a question that might be related to the A and might belong in relationship woes if coworker relationships count as relationships. What do you do when a coworker keeps talking to you about sexual things because you're another guy and he thinks all guys are into that stuff?

Have you gone through and tried changing the subject every time he tries to do that, reminding him that it's inappropriate work-place conversation, and saying that you're just not interested in that kind of discussion and would prefer to talk about X or Y, areas of potential or previously expressed mutual interest instead?

[Miriel]

As promised, my article in the Huffington Post. In French. I don't know if I'll translate it, because busy.

[Kesnit]

Spoiler

Show

A lot of the people were fine. Especially, the person who seemed in charge of the extras was especially nice and seemed to think I, as a trans woman, was meaningful and important -- I always ended up in a fairly visible position when she took decisions. And so on. However, because I can't be there tomorrow, I was taken out of the group of people who are inside the bar. And apparently, the director wants all trans people to be in bar as they should all get arrested or something. So I was told I was not needed, because I can't just be around somewhere and do random stuff, I need to be arrested because I'm a trans woman -- which is strange, because there are visibly effeminate gay people outside, and there is no reason for there to be no trans women near an important spot for gay and trans people, and I'm fairly sure the police didn't arrest all trans people in the neighbourhood in 1969. Many people said they were sad and didn't understand why the director wanted that.

I think you are being overly sensitive. You weren't cut because you are trans. You were cut because you could not be in all the scenes. End of sentence. You yourself said the other trans people were in the bar, so it isn't that the director didn't want trans people in that scene.

Spoiler

Show

Also, I got little respect as a trans woman. Some people where fine, but others were weird (not actively transphobic, just... they made me feel bad). The director used "he" and said I was a drag queen. Other people did that too, and it's sort of understandable as there were drag queens and stuff, but it was fairly alienating, especially since it happened so repeatedly.

Again, you are being over sensitive. Do you really think the director was going to keep track of all the extras? Especially when he had someone whose job it was to oversee the extras? And, again, you yourself said there were drag queens there. For all he bloody well knows, you could have been another of the drag queens!

I feel like I don't pass and that I never will. I'm already 3 months on HRT,

3 months is nothing. I'd been on t for about 6 months before I started growing chest hair, and a year before I had solid facial hair.

I guess he cares more about LGB than T stuff? I don't know. Anyway, as a lowly extra, it's impressive I even talked to the actual director. And that was about something like "Is he a drag queen?", which was fairly unpleasant.

See my above comment.

And the fact that I was almost crying even before they cut me out should be meaningful.

Why should it be meaningful?

[Astrella]

Hey, Kesnit, could you maybe not tell a trans woman that's she's being oversensitive over being misgendered and stuff?

[Kesnit]

Hey, Kesnit, could you maybe not tell a trans woman that's she's being oversensitive over being misgendered and stuff?

Caroline's post makes it sound like she thinks the director intentionally misgendered her. I strongly doubt that was the case. By her own admission, the mistake appears to be an honest one.

[Marnath]

Hey, Kesnit, could you maybe not tell a trans woman that's she's being oversensitive over being misgendered and stuff?

The way you phrased that made it sound kind of like you think Kesnit is talking about something he hasn't experienced, but I kind of doubt that's true. To me it seems like a trans man would know just as much about being misgendered as a trans woman?

[Ifni]

As promised, my article in the Huffington Post. In French. I don't know if I'll translate it, because busy.

Google Translate's version doesn't get the grammar right, but I can get the gist. Nice article.

@Kesnit: I don't think anyone's suggested the mistake came from malice rather than ignorance, but that doesn't make it not-hurtful, or make Caroline oversensitive for being hurt and wanting to talk about it. This is a support thread after all. (And honestly, I tend to think someone in that situation, where they know there are trans people in the group, should err on the side of caution with pronouns - "Well, she might have been a guy in drag, so I just went ahead with 'he', how was I to know?" is kind of a weak excuse.)

Even if you personally would've laughed off a similar situation ("is she a butch lesbian?" referring to you as you are today), that doesn't mean it's unreasonable to feel bad in those circumstances.

(I mean, I'm a cis woman who's gotten misgendered before - "And is this your little brother?" addressed to my younger brother in reference to me - and it just didn't bug me, I said "Actually, I'm his big sister", and we laughed at it. But it's not the same; circumstances matter.)

I think you are being overly sensitive. You weren't cut because you are trans. You were cut because you could not be in all the scenes. End of sentence. You yourself said the other trans people were in the bar, so it isn't that the director didn't want trans people in that scene.

If I understood correctly, she was cut because she couldn't be in one specific scene (inside the bar), and the director wanted all the trans people to be in that scene, as opposed to other scenes that were taking place at the same time (in the movie), but were to be filmed on the day Caroline was present. If she'd been cis, she could've been in one of the other scenes without a problem.

[Chen]

As promised, my article in the Huffington Post. In French. I don't know if I'll translate it, because busy.

Did you speak the person who wrote the Devoir article? I can understand comments about not the whole "biological sex" term, but the comments about not including asexuals/bisexuals seems a tad misplaced. The Devoir article seemed like a more generalized overview than a comprehensive discussion of every aspect of Transexuality (is that the right noun to use when talking about Trans* stuff? is Trans* alone a noun?). Regardless it was definitely a well written article with a lot of good content.

[KenderWizard]

Non-trans folks, I was wondering. If you could swap gender/sex just to try it, would you do so?

If it didn't freak me out too much, I'd totally love to be able to swap gender/sex. Mostly for cosplay and walking home at night by myself. Maybe job interviews...

I still feel like an impostor in many ways... I feel sort of bad for getting my politics and activism into this. I was just there for the ride, and I was paid, after all. But then, isn't any movie about such an event political to start with? And the fact that I was almost crying even before they cut me out should be meaningful.

The other extras were nice (as were, as I said, several people on set -- I even got a wink from one of the actors!). Many people had never seen a trans person before, and I got lots of (almost always respectful) questions, which is fine because I'm the kind of person who likes educating people and stuff, within reason at least.

I appreciate it must have been really frustrating. I think what happened here, although I might be wrong, is that your guard was down because you expected people working on the movie to be fully aware of trans issues. Which is absolutely a reasonable expectation. I'd say, though, that the director was likely chosen for the reasons directors are usually chosen (experience and suitability for the genre, with a white-cis-straight-male bias). It was tough to put yourself out there like that, and it was unfair of _someone_ to fail to make sure everyone working on the production, up to the director, was well informed about the people they need, people the movie is about, people the movie speaks to, and to not contribute to the same culture (on a tiny scale) that caused the problems the movie is documenting in the first place.

[Septimus Faber]

I feel like I don't pass and that I never will. I'm already 3 months on HRT, is there even a point to continue if I started out manlier than The Mountain? :/ here's where I'm at already :/ http://imgur.com/DoSDehF.jpg

You pass excellently. In fact, you look considerably more feminine than a lot of my cis-female friends do. As a Disney quote is always appropriate, no matter what the circumstances: "Though hope is frail, it's hard to kill." Admittedly, I slightly take issue with that. It's damn impossible to kill. Never lose heart.