LGBTAI+ 51: Lay That Hammer Down!

[Miriel]

Did you speak the person who wrote the Devoir article? I can understand comments about not the whole "biological sex" term, but the comments about not including asexuals/bisexuals seems a tad misplaced. The Devoir article seemed like a more generalized overview than a comprehensive discussion of every aspect of Transexuality (is that the right noun to use when talking about Trans* stuff? is Trans* alone a noun?). Regardless it was definitely a well written article with a lot of good content.

Are you talking about the one I wrote (*) in the Devoir (which is the same as this, but with tons of cuts, -- they cut even the history stuff, which I found very sad because it was the most important part to me) or the one by Gabrielle Bouchard (which I do find better than mine overall)? In any case, we know each other. I had made most of the points I exposed in mine on a Facebook comment she liked, but I only read her text after I had submitted mine (but before it was published).

I admit that being who I am, I tend to prefer going in depth about a specific item than mentionning many things briefly. Word limits are painful...

(*) I learned much later that they published it. In fact, I learned about it through Gabrielle! I hadn't heard fromt the Devoir, so I sent it to the Huffington Post. Great decision, as the Devoir cut most of my content, and apparently only put it online.

I appreciate it must have been really frustrating. I think what happened here, although I might be wrong, is that your guard was down because you expected people working on the movie to be fully aware of trans issues. Which is absolutely a reasonable expectation. I'd say, though, that the director was likely chosen for the reasons directors are usually chosen (experience and suitability for the genre, with a white-cis-straight-male bias). It was tough to put yourself out there like that, and it was unfair of _someone_ to fail to make sure everyone working on the production, up to the director, was well informed about the people they need, people the movie is about, people the movie speaks to, and to not contribute to the same culture (on a tiny scale) that caused the problems the movie is documenting in the first place.

I heard the director was gay. He may be. But being sensitive to gay issues doesn't mean being sensitive to trans* issues...

But yeah. Something, somewhere went wrong.

[Ifni]

I feel like I don't pass and that I never will. I'm already 3 months on HRT, is there even a point to continue if I started out manlier than The Mountain? :/ here's where I'm at already :/ http://imgur.com/DoSDehF.jpg

Oh, and like everyone else: yeah, you pass. If asked to guess the gender and trans status of the person in that picture, I would've guessed cis woman (or trans woman a long way into transition), and been pretty confident in that guess.

[Mystic Muse]

I do not have a second life, no. I have very little independent contact with anyone ever, for reasons. So while I have a Skype account, I am not supposed to give it out, or turn it on, or talk to people with it kind of deal.

Huh. And you're not allowed to say what those reasons are?

You pass excellently. In fact, you look considerably more feminine than a lot of my cis-female friends do. As a Disney quote is always appropriate, no matter what the circumstances: "Though hope is frail, it's hard to kill." Admittedly, I slightly take issue with that. It's damn impossible to kill. Never lose heart.

LIES!

It's from Dreamworks, not Disney. (Love that song though.)

And yes, you do actually pass quite well. I'd never have guessed that you were trans.

[Coidzor]

The way you phrased that made it sound kind of like you think Kesnit is talking about something he hasn't experienced, but I kind of doubt that's true. To me it seems like a trans man would know just as much about being misgendered as a trans woman?

As someone experienced in matters of putting one's foot in one's mouth in this thread, this was not an episode of tactful communication.

[Miriel]

Forgot, because... I forget things.

1) My name change is passed! I'm officially Caroline!
2) I have the first appointment on the way to surgery! Not my actual date of surgery, but the day I see the surgeon and plausibly set up the actual surgery appointment.

[Athedia]

Non-trans folks, I was wondering. If you could swap gender/sex just to try it, would you do so?

Do you mean swap bodies? When I was a kid I wanted to be a guy because they didn't have to wear shirts. I still wish I didn't have to always wear a shirt and also that I could not always have boobs, but I don't want a guys body. It wouldn't be me. Same with my other features, even ones that I don't like. If they were removed or changed I would feel a loss.

EDIT: Also Caroline I am sorry to hear about that. Hug?

[KenderWizard]

I heard the director was gay. He may be. But being sensitive to gay issues doesn't mean being sensitive to trans* issues...

But yeah. Something, somewhere went wrong.

Absolutely. Gay (especially gay male) issues are much more mainstream and well understood. Understanding LGBT+ issues from one's own experience as a mainstream gay male in the media business is analoguous to understanding race issues from one's own experience as a white-passing Latin@ in a diverse urban area. It's a relatively priviliged position, absolutely not without its challenges and issues, but there's a whole other set of experiences and severe challenges that isn't an issue from that perspective.

1) My name change is passed! I'm officially Caroline!
2) I have the first appointment on the way to surgery! Not my actual date of surgery, but the day I see the surgeon and plausibly set up the actual surgery appointment.

Excellent news times! Fair play!

[Grytorm]

Hello again. On a topic other than gender questioning. In the past I realized I was attracted to some guys but I largely stopped thinking about it as much once the guy I had a crush on was gone. I started thinking about it again when I saw a cute guy on the bus. I didn't get a good look because I understand that staring was rude and he sat behind me.

What I ended up thinking about is how I find a larger number of my female peers attractive than the male peers. But I don't remember often being very attracted to many women who I don't know. This might be part of the genric desire to have a relationship with someone projected on most girls that I know.

Secondly I wondered how interested/attracted am I to guys. I definitely like the idea of making out with some of them but I have a hard time picturing going much further. But I don't know. Any advice?

[Miriel]

In the world of Science, people apparently thought that showing the legs (and cropping out the heads) of two sex workers who are trans women of colour was a great idea.

http://slantist.com/trans-sex-workers-science-magazine/

[Frozen_Feet]

I'm extremely late to the party, but I wanted to comment on the recent Bleach chapters, because I found your outrage over it to be amusing, but also because I feel the lot of you missed rather key context regarding the quotes.

Namely, the person who said them.

Yumichika himself is the Gotei's resident "dude looks like a lady" - of ambiguous gender and sexuality and going through a fantastic version of "don't ask, don't tell" due to his Kido-based Zanpakuto. He's contrasted by the very macho Ikkaku Madarame, and in Bleach fandom it's relatively popular to see them as a "hard gay & flaming gay" pair.

So what's the point here? The point is that Yumichika could've just as well been at the receiving end of those insults. It is something of a "takes one to know one" situation - a queer person trying to be maximally insulting to another queer person. Your reactions pretty much prove Yumichika hit the nail on the head with those lines.

[golentan]

Frozen feet, you are so very badly missing the point. Also, that conversation was dead and buried, I vote we leave it so. If you wish to climb into the coffin with it, so be it.

[Jaycemonde]

Frozen feet, you are so very badly missing the point. Also, that conversation was dead and buried, I vote we leave it so. If you wish to climb into the coffin with it, so be it.

This wonderful person always seems to have a special place in his heart for trying to piss trans people off because it's "amusing". I'd suggest just ignoring him until he gets bored enough to leave the thread.

In other news, I'm trying to grapple with the revelation that somebody I trusted has been lying to me about respecting my identity and has been casually throwing away whichever part of it didn't "do it" for him at the time for the last couple of years. And my family still sucks. And I've been trying to calmly deal with people I've been avoiding for a long time and they sent making it any easier by accusing me and guilt-tripping me.
And I've been having huge dysphoria episodes, so that's fun.

Okay, last edit.

[TaiLiu]

This wonderful person always seems to have a special place in his heart for trying to piss trans people off because it's "amusing". I'd suggest just ignoring him until he gets out of the thread.

Ouch. That's a pretty strong accusation, my purple-symbol comrade.

[Sobol]

When I was a kid I wanted to be a guy because they didn't have to wear shirts.

Going shirtless is probably the greatest advantage of being a guy. Especially when swimming, running, wrestling, working out, etc. Or being caught in the rain.
(And the greatest disadvantage is probably facial hair...)

[golentan]

Going shirtless is probably the greatest advantage of being a guy. Especially when swimming, running, wrestling, working out, etc. Or being caught in the rain.
(And the greatest disadvantage is probably facial hair...)

As someone fond of his facial hair and unable to go shirtless without mockery, I must disagree. Politely.

[Serpentine]

Re. Golly's question (what's with the phone version not letting you quote people, or am I missing something): Yes, definitely, absolutely. No doubt about it. I would love to try being male-bodied. I bet I'd be cute... And if I had a penis I would pee, just, everywhere*, just because I could, without having to pull my pants right off or stretch them out and risk splashing all over my feet and I've put too much thought into this haven't I.

*Not *literally* everywhere, like swimming pools or the middle of the street. But like, in the bush, in my backyard, maybe in an alley if I was really busting.

[The_Snark]

Forgot, because... I forget things.

1) My name change is passed! I'm officially Caroline!

Excellent! Glad to hear you finally managed to get through the bureaucratic maze. And the appointment with the surgeon sounds like good news too.

In other news, I'm trying to grapple with the revelation that somebody I trusted has been lying to me about respecting my identity and has been casually throwing away whichever part of it didn't "do it" for him at the time for the last couple of years. And my family still sucks. And I've been trying to calmly deal with people I've been avoiding for a long time and they sent making it any easier by accusing me and guilt-tripping me.
And I've been having huge dysphoria episodes, so that's fun.

Sorry to hear about that. I don't think there's anything I can do to help except offer condolences, but let me know if I'm wrong.

And a little belated, but...

I feel like I don't pass and that I never will. I'm already 3 months on HRT, is there even a point to continue if I started out manlier than The Mountain? :/ here's where I'm at already :/ http://imgur.com/DoSDehF.jpg

You are definitely passing to my eyes, at least. I actually ended up re-loading the link to make sure I hadn't gotten it mixed up with something else, the first time - the adjective ‘manly’ just didn't seem to fit.

[golentan]

Re. Golly's question (what's with the phone version not letting you quote people, or am I missing something): Yes, definitely, absolutely. No doubt about it. I would love to try being male-bodied. I bet I'd be cute... And if I had a penis I would pee, just, everywhere*, just because I could, without having to pull my pants right off or stretch them out and risk splashing all over my feet and I've put too much thought into this haven't I.

*Not *literally* everywhere, like swimming pools or the middle of the street. But like, in the bush, in my backyard, maybe in an alley if I was really busting.

Imagining male Serps... Oh myyy... Though now I'm imagining you marking territory like a dog. It's an interesting mental image in a different way...

I recommend only peeing in natural environs. Though that feels pretty amazing, I do admit.

[SiuiS]

Outside of IMs, which are more for talking to someone who's in another sim/region out of convenience than any kind of privacy (for most people, anyway), I think it's hard to imagine any part of communicating in SL to be "independent contact". Just yesterday I was in a music club (with a live DJ, which was cool--they even have their own radio app) with like fifty other people. Or it was fifty at the height of my stay, which lasted about three hours. At another point it dwindled to eleven. The number of people in a sim can vary wildly depending on what it's used for and the time of day.
Converse example, the Transgender Lounge I go to sometimes (it's really nice, has a little memorial fountain with candles outside and generally gives off an olde englishe countryeside feel) never seems to have more than two or three people in it at a time--if that--even though the group chat flashes up on my chat window every couple of minutes because someone said something.

Oh, it's a sim? Huh. Well, then unless it has a phone version I wouldn't use it anyway.

Caroline's post makes it sound like she thinks the director intentionally misgendered her. I strongly doubt that was the case. By her own admission, the mistake appears to be an honest one.

Conversely, a director who had trans people show up to help reenact a very big trans rights moment really needs to step up.

Huh. And you're not allowed to say what those reasons are?

They aren't relevant. I've spent twenty years obfuscating my activities to the point that I have three separate credit score files (or did, I had to fix that when my da started showing up on my info). It is sufficient to know that I'm not goin to and that I'm directly not telling anyone why, which is the usual reason someone puts emphasis on the cause without elaboration.

Other stuff:

Frozen feet, we get that. We don't care. It doesn't make it okay. The author is responsible for their work, the end.

Caroline, awesome! Keep it up. :)

Tailiu, I can see Jayce's point. In the same way that frozen Feet is right about Bleach but it doesn't matter, he does often have technically accurate points that seem targeted towards "get over yourself and accept it" which is a big deal for the whole trans thing.

Serpentine, you're better off using the Internet version, even on a phone. The mobile is nice, but I've been spoiled.

[Coidzor]

Conversely, a director who had trans people show up to help reenact a very big trans rights moment really needs to step up.

Or even something inbetween or completely different.

*Not *literally* everywhere, like swimming pools or the middle of the street. But like, in the bush, in my backyard, maybe in an alley if I was really busting.

Eh? You can't already pee in swimming pools?

[SaintRidley]

Non-trans folks, I was wondering. If you could swap gender/sex just to try it, would you do so?

Absolutely. And I'd want to find out how to do it at will, because I'm just really into the idea of being able to try out having different equipment when I want it so I can have different sensations.

[SiuiS]

Or even something inbetween or completely different.:

Purple monkey dancing yogurt?

Absolutely. And I'd want to find out how to do it at will, because I'm just really into the idea of being able to try out having different equipment when I want it so I can have different sensations.

Yo.

[golentan]

Absolutely. And I'd want to find out how to do it at will, because I'm just really into the idea of being able to try out having different equipment when I want it so I can have different sensations.

I would want that as well, for sure.

[Sobol]

And if I had a penis I would pee, just, everywhere*, just because I could

Wow :)

-----

I've got fond memories of wrestling shirtless with a guy in the snow. It was late in the night, in a forest, a few steps from a railroad, and after one round, having defeated me, my friend stood up and waved triumphantly to an approaching train. He says the locomotive driver had such a puzzled look on his face: darkness, calm winter forest - and suddenly, in the headlights, two shirtless guys near the railway, one of them waving...

[Athedia]

Re. Golly's question (what's with the phone version not letting you quote people, or am I missing something): Yes, definitely, absolutely. No doubt about it. I would love to try being male-bodied. I bet I'd be cute... And if I had a penis I would pee, just, everywhere*, just because I could, without having to pull my pants right off or stretch them out and risk splashing all over my feet and I've put too much thought into this haven't I.

*Not *literally* everywhere, like swimming pools or the middle of the street. But like, in the bush, in my backyard, maybe in an alley if I was really busting.

The idea of being male bodied down there kinda creeps me out to be honest.

But the reason I am quoting you is to say the phone version does allow quoting, but the quote symbols tend to overlap a bit and be hidden in a corner. I was using the phone version earlier today and was able too.

[Jaycemonde]

Oh, it's a sim? Huh. Well, then unless it has a phone version I wouldn't use it anyway.

Spoiler: SecondLife, Viewers and Simulators

Show

"Sim" is SL slang/jargon for "simulated region", which is basically a physical space (generally about 512 meters long and wide, although some disconnected "islands" are larger) that you move around and interact in. They're capable of being connected to each other--you can even see the terrain and objects/avatars in neighboring sims--but lots exist in a sort of isolated bubble from each other, with nothing but the ocean surrounding them. Those are referred to as islands.
SecondLife is, when you get down to it, really more of a social network made up of different websites and personal pages that you can view in three dimensions (especially with the advent of Oculus Rift support) than a "game".
Although there are lots of roleplay sims and regions [usually owned by Linden Labs] which are aimed at educational or "true to life" depictions of cities around the world.

And yeah, it has a phone version. It has, like, ten phone versions. Some are better than others, but there are definitely a lot to choose from...I think one person even made a text-only app for Blackberries and the less powerful smartphones. It lets you chat and it has a rudimentary radar so you know if someone is standing right next to you, but beyond that it's super basic.
Viewers/clients like Firestorm and Emerald are the "web browsers" through which you view the "network" that makes up SL. Lots of them exist and almost all of them can be used to connect to the same grid.


Here's a gallery full of screenshots I've taken over the eons years, if you're interested. I actually have like seventeen thousand screenshots (not an exaggeration!) on my computer, but this is a small selection.

Conversely, a director who had trans people show up to help reenact a very big trans rights moment really needs to step up.

No ****. This director sounds like an ignorant fool at best and a complete idiot at worst.

Tailiu, I can see Jayce's point. In the same way that frozen Feet is right about Bleach but it doesn't matter, he does often have technically accurate points that seem targeted towards "get over yourself and accept it" which is a big deal for the whole trans thing.

It happens every single time he interacts with trans people on the forum. It'd be less of a pain if he didn't seem to make a habit of actually gravitating toward any trans issue-related thread that popped up just to tell us all to shut up and go back to our little corners. Like that forsaken "Drow transgenderism" thread.

[Serpentine]

Eh? You can't already pee in swimming pools?

Well, yes, but not from outside the swimming pool, and I wouldn't want to do that anyway.

[Heliomance]

I've come to the conclusion that I don't pass nearly as well as I thought I did. I'm pretty sure everyone that interacts with me more than just passing in the street knows, they're just too polite to say anything. And some people just passing in the street spot it. Bah.

[Delusion]

Spoiler: bleach

Show

I'm extremely late to the party, but I wanted to comment on the recent Bleach chapters, because I found your outrage over it to be amusing, but also because I feel the lot of you missed rather key context regarding the quotes.

Namely, the person who said them.

Yumichika himself is the Gotei's resident "dude looks like a lady" - of ambiguous gender and sexuality and going through a fantastic version of "don't ask, don't tell" due to his Kido-based Zanpakuto. He's contrasted by the very macho Ikkaku Madarame, and in Bleach fandom it's relatively popular to see them as a "hard gay & flaming gay" pair.

So what's the point here? The point is that Yumichika could've just as well been at the receiving end of those insults. It is something of a "takes one to know one" situation - a queer person trying to be maximally insulting to another queer person. Your reactions pretty much prove Yumichika hit the nail on the head with those lines.

Spoiler: bleach

Show

No no no no no no no.

First, there is history of violence towards trans women from gay males, insisting that we are just delusional self hating queens etc. So having a possibly gay man be the one to doing the transmisogynistic insults does not make it better.

More importantly, this is yet psycopathic and sadistic villain trans woman. When the stereotype of us being violent sexual predator is one of the main reasons we are denied our rights around the world and of the reasons we are so killed assaulted and killed and denied places in women's shelters when we need them. When that is one of the reasons just using women's bathrooms is so often scary and downright dangerous to us... Then nothing, and I mean nothing, excuses the use of that stereotype.

Yumichika's insults are another example of "haha she has a penis/is really a man" humour that everysingle trans woman has heard thousands of times in the media. Using them when the above trope is in use isn't even distasteful anymore but openly transphobic.

Also implying that trans women are amusing for getting annoyed at yet another extremely poor portrayal in the media... do you realy tink we do not know transphobi when we see it? We who have to live with our entire lives? And calling us amusing? Seriously?

[Kesnit]

@Kesnit: I don't think anyone's suggested the mistake came from malice rather than ignorance, but that doesn't make it not-hurtful, or make Caroline oversensitive for being hurt and wanting to talk about it. This is a support thread after all. (And honestly, I tend to think someone in that situation, where they know there are trans people in the group, should err on the side of caution with pronouns - "Well, she might have been a guy in drag, so I just went ahead with 'he', how was I to know?" is kind of a weak excuse.)

So if the director calls an actual drag queen "she" and he gets pissed, that's OK?

If I understood correctly, she was cut because she couldn't be in one specific scene (inside the bar), and the director wanted all the trans people to be in that scene, as opposed to other scenes that were taking place at the same time (in the movie), but were to be filmed on the day Caroline was present. If she'd been cis, she could've been in one of the other scenes without a problem.

Which is a rephrase of what I said. Caroline couldn't be in the one scene the director wanted her in. Had they filmed the in-bar scene the day she was there, she would have been in the movie. Since she could not be there the day of filming, she was cut. Therefore, her being cut wasn't because she is trans. (If that was the case, she would have been cut regardless of what day they filmed the in-bar scene.) She was cut because she could not perform the role the director wanted her to perform.

1) My name change is passed! I'm officially Caroline!

YEAH!!

2) I have the first appointment on the way to surgery! Not my actual date of surgery, but the day I see the surgeon and plausibly set up the actual surgery appointment.

DOUBLE YEAH!!!

Hello again. On a topic other than gender questioning. In the past I realized I was attracted to some guys but I largely stopped thinking about it as much once the guy I had a crush on was gone. I started thinking about it again when I saw a cute guy on the bus. I didn't get a good look because I understand that staring was rude and he sat behind me.

What I ended up thinking about is how I find a larger number of my female peers attractive than the male peers. But I don't remember often being very attracted to many women who I don't know. This might be part of the genric desire to have a relationship with someone projected on most girls that I know.

Secondly I wondered how interested/attracted am I to guys. I definitely like the idea of making out with some of them but I have a hard time picturing going much further. But I don't know. Any advice?

You are what you identify as.

Spoiler: For some TMI

Show

When I first started t, I got the sex drive of a teenage boy. Unlike a teenage boy, however, I was well over the age of consent. Since I was single at the time, I did several random hook-ups via CraigsList, and I enjoyed them. There was no emotional tie; most of the time, I never saw them again. (A few I hooked up with more than once.)

After all of that, if someone asks me my orientation, I am a straight man, even though I've had sex with more men than women. Why? Because I'm not emotionally attracted to men.

You say you have feelings for males a females. That's not a bad thing. Maybe you are bi/pan/whatever word you want. Maybe you're subconsciously mixing friendship and romantic attraction. Maybe there isn't a word for you yet. But in the end, all that matters is what makes you happy.

Don't feel the need to push for an answer or an identity. Do what makes you happy (so long as everyone involved is consenting!!!!). Eventually, you'll find your answer, or you'll find there isn't a simple answer, and that's OK because you know what you want.

Going shirtless is probably the greatest advantage of being a guy. Especially when swimming, running, wrestling, working out, etc. Or being caught in the rain.
(And the greatest disadvantage is probably facial hair...)

As someone fond of his facial hair and unable to go shirtless without mockery, I must disagree. Politely.

*chuckle* I have "moobs," but still go to the pool and the beach topless.

Conversely, a director who had trans people show up to help reenact a very big trans rights moment really needs to step up.

Except the Stonewall Riots aren't just about the trans rights movement. The Stonewall Inn catered to all kinds in the queer community. The riot seems to have been triggered by a lesbian - not a transman, a lesbian - calling out to the crowd "Why don't you guys do something?"

Were there trans people there? Of course! There were also a lot of gay men and lesbians.

There were also apparently a lot of drag queens as extras at the filming. Being mistaken for a drag queen does not mean "not passing." (There are some drag queens who look more female than I ever did! And they are hot, too.) The director made a mistake, but it seems to be an honest one. The fact that he had trans people show for the filming shows he is aware that trans people were at the Stonewall that night.