Taking Level 1 of Wizard Mid-Adventure

[Fax Celestis]

I am trying to show you that you can literally take 100% of the fluff they write before the class and throw it away and the game will still work. And as a game it is about having fun. Using such a narrow view of magic lessens the potential different kinds of characters you can have in a game, which means there are less ways to have fun. Yes, you definitely can have fun with the Dumbledore clone presented in the PHB, but you can also have fun with any of the alternatives I've brought up here.

There is absolutely, positively, no reason to treat the fluff text attached to a class as some sort of holy text.

[Milodiah]

I am trying to show you that you can literally take 100% of the fluff they write before the class and throw it away and the game will still work. And as a game it is about having fun. Using such a narrow view of magic lessens the potential different kinds of characters you can have in a game, which means there are less ways to have fun. Yes, you definitely can have fun with the Dumbledore clone presented in the PHB, but you can also have fun with any of the alternatives I've brought up here.

There is absolutely, positively, no reason to treat the fluff text attached to a class as some sort of holy text.

There are several alternatives, and you've become fixated on a singular word I've said in the past, tried (and succeeded) to drag me into a drawn-out argument on the subject, and accomplished nothing overall.

There are hundreds of different ways a wizard can learn his spells. But he's got to learn them from somewhere, or he's just a sorcerer.

[Fax Celestis]

Why is it so hard for you to believe that someone who is so smart they can tell the universe to sit down and shut up can also invent spells that just happen to work like those presented in the PHB?

[Milodiah]

Why is it so hard for you to believe that someone who is so smart they can tell the universe to sit down and shut up can also invent spells that just happen to work like those presented in the PHB?

How did they learn to invent those spells, exactly? What you're saying is that a (non-magical) man standing in the street suddenly becomes a wizard and starts inventing spells on the spot. If it isn't what you're saying, then you need to say more, because what has been said reads exactly like that.

[Fax Celestis]

Trial and error, just like anyone else who invents something. And look, he even has this huge book of notes!

[Milodiah]

Trial and error, just like anyone else who invents something. And look, he even has this huge book of notes!

If you affix "for decades", I'll grudgingly accept this.

[Fax Celestis]

How did they learn to invent those spells, exactly? What you're saying is that a (non-magical) man standing in the street suddenly becomes a wizard and starts inventing spells on the spot. If it isn't what you're saying, then you need to say more, because what has been said reads exactly like that.

This is a universe where gods walk the earth, dragons feast upon the living, the dead walk (and occasionally have jobs!), and men can rub some bat guano together to make explosions. Is it so hard to consider that something just clicks? That he's struck by a spark of inspiration and suddenly everything makes sense?

[backwaterj]

Can the OP call a truce here? Since I think you're both saying the same thing different ways loudly at each other?

Yes, there is a difference between sorcerer and wizard magic, so fundamental a difference that they use a different aspect of their personality (Charisma vs. Intelligence) to access it. That doesn't mean that the only way to learn wizardry is to "study under Gandalf" any more than the only way to learn calculus is to attend college. Some people are self-motivated learners, and, y'know, books are a thing.

That said, the issue at hand is suddenly "becoming studied in the arcane arts" without actually having studied the arcane arts. I think it needs at least a little backstory, even if it's mostly "off-camera".

[Milodiah]

Right, the topic. Sorry.

[backwaterj]

Apology accepted.

And let me say, I do appreciate your informed opinions about this. It's one of those issues without an easy answer, so I'm sure you could ask five people and get ten different solutions.

[otakumick]

I just want to say, self taught wizard(or more accurately epiphany wizard boom flash of light inside the brain "I know a new spell, cool") Nikola Tesla. Wizard who learns by rote and/or steals ideas(spells) from others, that Thomas "Lets kill elephants to discredit Tesla" Edison.

[bjoern]

Just like the reds apple ale commercial.

A guys walking along and someone zings a spell book at his head.

*SMACK*

thinks about it

"I know magic"

Or kung fu, depending on which reference is more suitable.

[satcharna]

I'd personally go the OotS route and imply that the character has been sneaking peeks at the party wizard or whomever fits the idea most.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html

[JusticeZero]

My annoyance was with other classes. Someone once randomly killed a goblin we'd captured and announced that he was taking an Assassin level, for instance.

[Milodiah]

My annoyance was with other classes. Someone once randomly killed a goblin we'd captured and announced that he was taking an Assassin level, for instance.

As in, summarily executed? I know it's (sort of) not the point, but I wouldn't be giving him XP that would bump him up a level for killing a prisoner...

[Fax Celestis]

As in, summarily executed? I know it's (sort of) not the point, but I wouldn't be giving him XP that would bump him up a level for killing a prisoner...

No, but "murdering someone explicitly to become an assassin" is a prereq for the Assassin PrC that people tend to forget about.

[Milodiah]

No, but "murdering someone explicitly to become an assassin" is a prereq for the Assassin PrC that people tend to forget about.

Ah, right, thanks. If everything else was in order, I suppose it's permissible...especially if he happens to be practically straight rogue, which is kind of the fast-track to Assassin for most people. I mean, in-character at least, it isn't that much a leap to make.

[satcharna]

It's up to the GM to interpret that, and I'd argue that executing prisoners isn't exactly qualifying for an assassin. Unless he's getting paid for it, of course. Better would be to ask him to discuss it with the GM first, so he can actually be hired to assassinate someone to qualify for that assassin level.

[Milodiah]

It's up to the GM to interpret that, and I'd argue that executing prisoners isn't exactly qualifying for an assassin. Unless he's getting paid for it, of course. Better would be to ask him to discuss it with the GM first, so he can actually be hired to assassinate someone to qualify for that assassin level.

It's not that you're being hired to be an assassin for your first kill, it's that you demonstrate the will to kill in cold blood to become an assassin. After all, who would hire someone who wasn't an assassin to be an assassin if they could just hire an already-qualified assassin?

[satcharna]

It's not that you're being hired to be an assassin for your first kill, it's that you demonstrate the will to kill in cold blood to become an assassin. After all, who would hire someone who wasn't an assassin to be an assassin if they could just hire an already-qualified assassin?

From my knowledge of the area, there's nothing that says you, as the GM, isn't allowed to prefer that a player helps you set up something that ends in a better story than "I stab this commoner so I can arbitrarily get an extra dice of sneak attack".

[Milodiah]

From my knowledge of the area, there's nothing that says you, as the GM, isn't allowed to prefer that a player helps you set up something that ends in a better story than "I stab this commoner so I can arbitrarily get an extra dice of sneak attack".

That's not what I said, I was just pointing out how the class works and the reasoning behind why its prerequisites are "kill in cold blood". Which is entirely fluff, as I'll point out.

[JusticeZero]

I'd always considered it "hoops to jump through before a trainer will talk to you" personally. And being paid for the killing invalidates it, oddly enough.

[satcharna]

I'd always considered it "hoops to jump through before a trainer will talk to you" personally. And being paid for the killing invalidates it, oddly enough.

The character must kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins.

I'd argue that a payment in this case (assuming a guild of assassins exists, and is necessary for the training of assassins) is well in line with the prerequisite. The payment could very well simply be admittance to the guild of assassins, much like the Dark Brotherhood in Skyrim.
Even without a guild of assassins a payment makes sense. An assassin is someone who kills for money, the prerequisite for taking up the class would to me be justified as being heartless enough to kill for money.

[Segev]

Yeah, fluff it however you want, and you may reasonably require that a wizard buy his first spellbook (the physical book, in the same sense that a fighter must pay for his sword and armor), but the spells his class "comes with" are truly free with joining the class and leveling up. Again, fluff how you came to have this spellbook around however you like.

Heck, if you want to, you can claim you've been writing notes on your arms and torso or something (there are rules in C.Arcane for tattoo-spellbooks).

[backwaterj]

That is an excellent point, though I don't think either of these particular wizards-to-be would take that route. The cleric in question actually had the party mage pick one up on a teleport back to town.

Just like the reds apple ale commercial.

A guys walking along and someone zings a spell book at his head.

*SMACK*

thinks about it

"I know magic"

Or kung fu, depending on which reference is more suitable.

Mind if I sig this?

[bjoern]

That is an excellent point, though I don't think either of these particular wizards-to-be would take that route. The cleric in question actually had the party mage pick one up on a teleport back to town.



Mind if I sig this?

Lol sure. Those things crack me up.

[Yogibear41]

Nothing in the rules about it, but you shouldn't be able to just say bam, I'm a wizard now. It would be like taking a kid off the street giving him a guitar and expecting him to be able to play it. In the game I play in depending on your original class, it can take years to learn a new one. Now suddenly taking a level in fighter when you were already a barbarian? pretty easy to do. But becoming a wizard when your character was only a barbarian a week ago? Not so much.

[waccio]

Must be part of the roleplay. I had the same issue with one of my player (fighter), so i let him take the path. Hurray!! you are a lvl 1 wizard born in the middle of a dungeon. Spellbook? try to get one here. Spells? try to find them too! As for the ingame motivation, quite clear: ex-mercenarie, friendly bond with previous wizards. Keeps 1 scroll in his inventory, wasting hours of his time trying to decipher. enogh reason to become a wiz.

[KingSmitty]

Imo it really depends on the backstory. Maybe his dad was a wizard but he really wanted to grow up and be a fighter. After trying that for a while he decided to follow the family business. Since daddy showed him a few tticks when he was little he may nor have had to go to hogwarts and learn.

Its really not a big deal, just force them to have no 1st level spells if it sounds cheaty. Though anything but what they start with in the handbook falls under houseruling, and since houseruling = opinion, everyone has their own which is gonna be different than everyone else's .


And there are people who can just look at a calculus book and have an expert understanding of it. There arent many of them due to low reproduction rate of math geeks.

[Pan151]

Character in question was always interested in magic, and often took some time here and there to look up magic lore and basic theories of spellcraft. It was for the most part just a hobby, until a couple weeks ago he decided to give it a try in practice, and after a bit of experimentation found out he actually had some talent for it.

No he didn't mention any of this until the day he took his first level of Wizard. He is also not gonna mention his inclination towards Illithid erotica either, until the day he gets his first level of Aberrant Mangaka .

There, done.

PS. The main problem is that the books try to fluff out 1st level characters as having had years of experience in their craft, when in practice they are just incompetent rookies that can be outclassed by a swarm of angry cats. Plus, if wizard 1 -> wizard 5 can be easilly achieved within a few weeks of fairly conservative adventuring, I don't buy that aristocrat 1 -> wizard 1 takes years of study...