OOTS #962 - The Discussion Thread

[Vinyadan]

I want "smite tha tree" game, board game, videogame. Now.

If you're lucky, they may even make a movie out of it! With gadgets and collectibles!

[oppyu]

No one worships Hel, as was mentioned here. That means literally not one single living person, ever. You have to worship a god in order to be their cleric—except in the case of undead, where she has a direct connection to their negative energy lifeforce. But she can't give them XP.

Jeesh, how cruddy does a God have to be that literally nobody in the world worships her? I thought Durkon meant figuratively, like how one might say that nobody likes free jazz or eating spam.

[The Giant]

Jeesh, how cruddy does a God have to be that literally nobody in the world worships her? I thought Durkon meant figuratively, like how one might say that nobody likes free jazz or eating spam.

Yes, that would be an interesting thing to learn. One would hope that someone writes a comic strip about it someday.

[butterbow]

How would one lose their arm in childbirth, of all things? An amputation?

Well, you could lose an arm during childbirth, when the trauma that caused you losing your arm also causes you to go into labour.
Or she was in the process of giving birth, when the encounter(?) happened. As this is a more lengthly process, she could have figth in the early stages of it - but the contractions would be a serious disadvantage/distraction, even if they happened only every few minutes.
Pregnancies in fiction often happen to end at the most unfortunate time.

What makes me wonder if there are actual rules for that in DnD.

[Keltest]

Yes, that would be an interesting thing to learn. One would hope that someone writes a comic strip about it someday.

Alas, if only there were such an individual out there who could do such a thing. Perhaps one with a playground much too small for himself.

[oppyu]

Yes, that would be an interesting thing to learn. One would hope that someone writes a comic strip about it someday.

I'll get started on an Expanded Universe piece about how Hel's inability to attract followers is linked to the mythic and terrible ducksnake.

[butterbow]

Jeesh, how cruddy does a God have to be that literally nobody in the world worships her? I thought Durkon meant figuratively, like how one might say that nobody likes free jazz or eating spam.

Hm... Perhaps Hel's whorshippers tend to live on the shorter side of live. What would be a better sacrifice to glorious Hel than sacrificing your own live? That's the ultimate devotion to a death goddess. Plus you'll get surely into her place, because this is quite clearly a non heroic type of death. Well, at least if you are an dwarf. Or are non dwarfs also entitled to this afterlive, when they happen to whorship one of the gods of this patheon?

[Storm_Of_Snow]

If the amputation site was cauterised, presumably that would prevent regeneration from working. And after a while, maybe the body becomes accepting of the missing part (via morphic fields or some similar phrase), so cutting off the amputation site and casting regenerate would only regenerate the amputation site, not the whole body part.

(A campaign I've had in mind for a while's got an important NPC with high level connections who's an amputee, so I was trying to work out how she'd not have had regenerate cast on her between her injury and the start of the campaign).

As for Durkon's mother, perhaps she lost a lot of blood giving birth, or a blood clot lodged in one of the arteries in her arm, and as a result, the tissues in her arm died due to a lack of fresh oxygen and her arm had to be amputated to prevent gangrene killing her.

[Keltest]

Hm... Perhaps Hel's whorshippers tend to live on the shorter side of live. What would be a better sacrifice to glorious Hel than sacrificing your own live? That's the ultimate devotion to a death goddess. Plus you'll get surely into her place, because this is quite clearly a non heroic type of death. Well, at least if you are an dwarf. Or are non dwarfs also entitled to this afterlive, when they happen to whorship one of the gods of this patheon?

Hel is the goddess of death for the entire northern pantheon. Dwarves favor Thor and Odin, but they by no means have exclusive worshipping rights.

[Caustic Soda]

I just wanted to say that I really appreciate how you've made demihumans of various skin colors a thing without needing to make a big deal out of it in-verse, Giant. It's refreshing to see such things in a fantasy work, where far too many works tend to make everyone 'white'. Or, at best, have humans in a variety of skin colors and the demihumans only in 'white' and various non-human variations like literally white or coal-black etc.

[Midnight Lurker]

That raises another interesting question: just who is this High Priest of Hel? He isn't simply a shadow-reflection of Durkon, or he'd already have the memories... right? If he existed before Durkon, who is he really?

[ratfox]

She used the right arm to hold baby Durkon. C'mon guys.

I thought that at first, then I looked at her again and remembered… Missing right arm.

It's true that people say they learnt to do everything with one hand when they had a baby, so it's kind of funny she would say that.
On one hand (heh), she could have said it even if she still had both arms.
On the other hand, it seems to imply that she lost her right arm about at the same time she had Durkon.

While I am not myself a parent, I believe most people would find holding an infant while cooking, instead of utilizing an advanced parenting aid called a cradle, rather appallingly negligent.

Yep, you're not a parent. It's really, really, common that people do everything while holding a baby on one arm.
On one hand (heh again), they actually like holding their children, and on the other hand, babies often tend
to start crying literally every time you put them down. Or they crawl around and get in trouble.

[Jay R]

I love tha fact that tha rules o' Smite tha Tree explain how Durkon defeated tha druid's trees.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[drazen]

I like how Rich referenced the celebrity scandal in the last page. Which brings to mind. Did he do this comic to keep the comics moving. Or to make that joke?

I thought the joke really fell flat. I don't think what happened to all those celebrities was right, but you shouldn't store private stuff "in the cloud" and expect it to be as secure as, say, under armed guard in a vault in your island volcano fortress (pesky heroes notwithstanding).

Putting your naked pictures in an iCloud account is almost as dumb as e-mailing your credit card number, security code, and PIN in an unencrypted message, or burying your jewelry in your neighbor's backyard with his permission. People shouldn't steal it, but try telling that to, say, the Russian mafia, or any criminal, really, and see how far it gets you in the real world. The only way you could ever make the sort of wishful thinking that totally prevents the dissemination of information and media in world at large function effectively would be with a draconian, totalitarian government like Tarquin's.

I leave it as an exercise to the reader whether or not they think that's truly worth it (for example, consider Germany's recent ruling forcing people to delete shared files after a break-up, even if they're just private on a flash drive in your house).

As far as Durkon's private memories, the analogy fails as he never actually, say, uploaded them to "Macebook." Nobody can steal my private thoughts unless I actually put them somewhere in the real world. A blogging site, even if I make it "password protected," is not the most secure site.

The first rule you should teach your kids about the internet is, don't say or do anything on it you don't ever want anybody else to know about, because someone is going to find out and tell everyone. Or, as my dad always told me, "Life ain't fair, better get used to it."

[Banderwock]

I like how Rich referenced the celebrity scandal in the last page. Which brings to mind. Did he do this comic to keep the comics moving. Or to make that joke?

I found the last panel to be very out of place, I assume for the sake of the topical joke/moral.

It's a minor criticism, but just wanted to give feedback because I'm a fan (though sorry it's my first post).

[Emperor Time]

That interesting about Hel since it shows that even if your one of the original 36 surviving gods. That it doesn't mean that you will have followers as a given. Also it great to see more of Durkon's relatives and it makes me think that we will at least see the cousin that he was playing the "Smite the Tree" game with when they get to the Dwarven lands.

[Keltest]

I found the last panel to be very out of place, I assume for the sake of the topical joke/moral.

It's a minor criticism, but just wanted to give feedback because I'm a fan (though sorry it's my first post).

I found it humorous. Maybe its because I adamantly refuse to keep up with gossip, but it seemed exactly the sort of thing the High Priest of Hel would say to Durkon. Plus, its not like Rich hasn't made a similar joke before.

[oppyu]

I thought the joke really fell flat. I don't think what happened to all those celebrities was right, but you shouldn't store private stuff "in the cloud" and expect it to be as secure as, say, under armed guard in a vault in your island volcano fortress (pesky heroes notwithstanding).

Putting your naked pictures in an iCloud account is almost as dumb as e-mailing your credit card number, security code, and PIN in an unencrypted message, or burying your jewelry in your neighbor's backyard with his permission. People shouldn't steal it, but try telling that to, say, the Russian mafia, or any criminal, really, and see how far it gets you in the real world. The only way you could ever make the sort of wishful thinking that totally prevents the dissemination of information and media in world at large function effectively would be with a draconian, totalitarian government like Tarquin's.

I leave it as an exercise to the reader whether or not they think that's truly worth it (for example, consider Germany's recent ruling forcing people to delete shared files after a break-up, even if they're just private on a flash drive in your house).

As far as Durkon's private memories, the analogy fails as he never actually, say, uploaded them to "Macebook." Nobody can steal my private thoughts unless I actually put them somewhere in the real world. A blogging site, even if I make it "password protected," is not the most secure site.

The first rule you should teach your kids about the internet is, don't say or do anything on it you don't ever want anybody else to know about, because someone is going to find out and tell everyone. Or, as my dad always told me, "Life ain't fair, better get used to it."

Yes, yes, we appreciate that you're very upset that anyone would just feel bad for the victims of this massive flagrant invasion of privacy without remembering how it's their fault for being so stupid. Stupid, stupid victims.

[pacovf]

I like the way the HPoH-Durkon relationship is evolving. Soon they will start bickering about who has to do the dishes

[Yrogerg]

I thought the joke really fell flat. I don't think what happened to all those celebrities was right, but you shouldn't store private stuff "in the cloud" and expect it to be as secure as, say, under armed guard in a vault in your island volcano fortress (pesky heroes notwithstanding).

Putting your naked pictures in an iCloud account is almost as dumb as e-mailing your credit card number, security code, and PIN in an unencrypted message, or burying your jewelry in your neighbor's backyard with his permission. People shouldn't steal it, but try telling that to, say, the Russian mafia, or any criminal, really, and see how far it gets you in the real world. The only way you could ever make the sort of wishful thinking that totally prevents the dissemination of information and media in world at large function effectively would be with a draconian, totalitarian government like Tarquin's.

I leave it as an exercise to the reader whether or not they think that's truly worth it (for example, consider Germany's recent ruling forcing people to delete shared files after a break-up, even if they're just private on a flash drive in your house).

As far as Durkon's private memories, the analogy fails as he never actually, say, uploaded them to "Macebook." Nobody can steal my private thoughts unless I actually put them somewhere in the real world. A blogging site, even if I make it "password protected," is not the most secure site.

The first rule you should teach your kids about the internet is, don't say or do anything on it you don't ever want anybody else to know about, because someone is going to find out and tell everyone. Or, as my dad always told me, "Life ain't fair, better get used to it."

If I have a lock on my front door, and someone picks that lock and robs my home, this does not make it my fault for not having a lock AND a deadbolt AND a security system. Is it a good idea to have those things? Sure. But still not my fault. Not even if I live in a high-crime area and my home is literally filled with diamonds. Especially if my home only had the one lock by default and I'd been repeatedly assured by the realtor that was sufficient.

Moreover, people routinely store all sorts of sensitive private data online. This is actually a reality of what people use the Internet for in 2014. My bank information, tax information, medical records, employment history, etc etc etc all exist in online spaces. To say it's irresponsible for them to be is to say I'm irresponsible for being employed by a company with a modern tech footprint, that I'm irresponsible for making amazon purchases, that I'm irresponsible for seeking care at a modern hospital that prioritizes patient convenience, that I'm irresponsible for playing literally any MMO or paying my bills online. In order to function in the modern world, I rely on the companies storing that data to be a) secure, and b) honest about how secure they actually are. iCloud was breached with a dictionary attack, meaning it was, by default, less secure than my Level 80 Mesmer in Guild Wars is. By default, and with little-to-no prompt about what's being stored and how to better secure it. THAT'S an actual problem. People storing personal data online in the first place? Not so much.

[JoeG]

While I am not myself a parent, I believe most people would find holding an infant while cooking, instead of utilizing an advanced parenting aid called a cradle, rather appallingly negligent.

Yep, you're not a parent. It's really, really, common that people do everything while holding a baby on one arm.
On one hand (heh again), they actually like holding their children, and on the other hand, babies often tend to start crying literally every time you put them down.

Seconded. As a parent of three, there are many many MANY times where the only option for one's child (and one's own sanity) is to hold them. ESPECIALLY at inconvenient two-handed-task moments.

(Cradles / bassinets are over-rated. So are prams/pushers/strollers for that matter.)

[Banderwock]

I found it humorous. Maybe its because I adamantly refuse to keep up with gossip, but it seemed exactly the sort of thing the High Priest of Hel would say to Durkon. Plus, its not like Rich hasn't made a similar joke before.

Heh, good strip.

When I reached the end of this one, it felt forced. I think this was mostly due to the topical joke, but not entirely. Before this strip not-Durkon has been more undefined, and things had an "arguing with myself" kind of feel. Now it seems clear that he is a pre-existing entity with a personality completely separate from Durkon. That's fine, but not-Durkon's lines at the end made it all fit poorly with their previous dialogues to me.

[gerryq]

I don't get it...

(I am no a native speaker so maybe it is a misunderstanding on my part ?)

It's to do with a recent mini-scandal in which nude photographs of some actresses stored on the web were released.

[Anarion]

The title raises an interesting question to me. Barring looking in a mirror, Durkon presumably has never seen himself naked, or really never seen himself at all. It's odd that the way the high priest of Hel watches the memories is as a third party viewer from a distance.

I mean, I appreciate from a storytelling standpoint that it's worth bending logic here in irder to portray child-Durkon without requiring a large mirror in every room in the dwarven homeland. But I'm wondering if there might be a good IC reason why the memories are viewers this way instead of from Durkon's first person perspective.

[JoeG]

Moreover, people routinely store all sorts of sensitive private data online. This is actually a reality of what people use the Internet for in 2014. My bank information, tax information, medical records, employment history ... In order to function in the modern world, I rely on the companies storing that data to be a) secure, and b) honest about how secure they actually are. iCloud was breached with a dictionary attack, meaning it was, by default, less secure than my Level 80 Mesmer in Guild Wars is. THAT'S an actual problem. People storing personal data online in the first place? Not so much.

Hmm. Those companies and whatnot don't (usually) store their data "online". You may enter it online, and they may provide limited internet access to some of it. But it's not stored "online", in any reasonable interpretation of that idea.

A dictionary attack succeeds not because the technical infrastructure is poor, but because the weakest link is the humans.

Anything you put on the internet? Assume it's written on a postcard and posted. Sure, most people won't see it, and most of those who can see it are actually honest. But it's still effectively public. That's been true since the inception of the web, and it's still true today. You *might* believe how many individuals *necessarily* have complete authorised access to any data you post online. (Let alone those who can discover some-human-who-isn't-you has password that's "password".) But then again... you probably wouldn't.

As a junior manager (and tech asset "owner") in "one of those corporations", I used to get near monthly emails requesting me to authorise new high level access for the latest churned technician from some infrastructure support shop in our offshore I.T. support outsource somewhere. No way to actually tell who (specifically) it was, or whether they would actually ever do any maintenance on "my" servers. The emails were legit enough, and the data we managed was *really* sensitive, but golly... so many people with so much access to so much data. Wow!

[Doug Lampert]

Hel is the goddess of death for the entire northern pantheon. Dwarves favor Thor and Odin, but they by no means have exclusive worshipping rights.

But Hel is the goddess of DISHONORABLE death for the entire Northern Pantheon.

Odin is also a death god. Freyja is also a death goddess. And their realms are the fun and interesting places to go when you die.

If you have a prayer for which a death god is appropriate and you worship the northern pantheon which of Hel, Odin, and Freyja do you address it too?

Unless you're asking for better (or worse) treatment for someone who died in bed I can't see why it would be Hel.

Now, it's still odd that Loki's daughter can't get a single worshiper. She's a goddess after all. There are necromancers and would be necromancers out there. The northern equivalent of Tsukiko would almost certainly worship Hel, and it only takes one such nutcase for her to have one such worshiper.

[Psyren]

Why didn't Hel try bequeathing her powers on someone not undead?

Because nobody (among the living, anyway) worships her. Easy.

All her adherents would be either insane cultists or intelligent undead - both of which would fall victim to the fates Darkon described, of being curbstomped by mid-level adventurers before they could get anywhere, as per OotSverse's setup where the minions of the evil gods drew the short straw.

EDIT: Gah, and the Giant himself fielded that one, even ruling out "crazy cults."

[Keltest]

But Hel is the goddess of DISHONORABLE death for the entire Northern Pantheon.

Odin is also a death god. Freyja is also a death goddess. And their realms are the fun and interesting places to go when you die.

If you have a prayer for which a death god is appropriate and you worship the northern pantheon which of Hel, Odin, and Freyja do you address it too?

Unless you're asking for better (or worse) treatment for someone who died in bed I can't see why it would be Hel.

Now, it's still odd that Loki's daughter can't get a single worshiper. She's a goddess after all. There are necromancers and would be necromancers out there. The northern equivalent of Tsukiko would almost certainly worship Hel, and it only takes one such nutcase for her to have one such worshiper.

Hel is the goddess of death. She is ALSO the goddess of, um, Hel, I guess, where dishonored dwarven dead go, but that is in addition to her duties as goddess of death for the Northern Pantheon. Don't assume that because something is one way in the source myths, it must be that way in the comics.

Second Paragraph

[Yrogerg]

Hmm. Those companies and whatnot don't (usually) store their data "online". You may enter it online, and they may provide limited internet access to some of it. But it's not stored "online", in any reasonable interpretation of that idea.

I promise you, everything I listed is LITERALLY accessible through a web browser, by me, at this moment. Online banking, company HR portal, hospital patient portal, all of them.

A dictionary attack succeeds not because the technical infrastructure is poor, but because the weakest link is the humans.

Right, but there's plenty of ways of "nudging" humans, or providing them better security in spite of themselves. Every MMO I've played since '07 has made it a point to repeatedly pester you to add two-factor, as well as sending an email alert for login attempts form a strange IP. It also locks users out and alerts them by email after multiple failed attempts. iCloud is DRAMATICALLY less secure than that, and given the nature of the "backup" (i.e, it hoovers up basically any data you save with your iphone, and rarely, if ever, prompts or reminds you that it's doing it), Apple owes it to customers to make that clear from the outset and to take steps to close some of that distance.