Gunnerkrigg Court 5: Bismuth as Usual

[spectralphoenix]

Oh yeah, Liffguard, I can agree with that. I can even see where he's coming from with the repeating a year, even though that is absolutely extreme. But having her move out of the dorms with kids her own age? Dickest of **** moves.
I do wonder if it's true that he's trying to isolate her for some reason.

It really isn't that extreme. If she'd been caught cheating at a real school, getting retroactive failing grades for everything she''s cheated on would be the very beginning, even before disciplinary committees and such got involved. Extracurricular activities and permission to work part time jobs are generally based on academic standing, meaning those would be out. I've never been in a school where each year lived in separate quarters, but I'm sure if said cheating took the form of stealing homework from dormmates, at the very least she'd be moved out of Kat's dorm, maybe the whole dorm. Really, what Annie's getting here is the lightest punishment anyone could conceivably hope to get. A real student would probably be expelled for cheating on that scale.

And sure, Anthony's not making this easy - but if I had kids, and I had to have this conversation with them, I'm pretty sure it would be a lot more Old Testament than New, if you get my drift.

And yes, I know this is probably all cover to get Annie out of the way for Anthony and the Headmaster's evil plan to build a baby eating moon laser or something.

[danelsan]

And sure, Anthony's not making this easy - but if I had kids, and I had to have this conversation with them, I'm pretty sure it would be a lot more Old Testament than New, if you get my drift.

However, you would likely have earned doing that kind of talk by not being an absentee father who never tried to help your children with their academic difficulties (not to mention all the other things in which he was not there to provide support). It is not like he was ever concerned with teaching her not to cheat, develop good studying habits and so on, nor was there to even notice her difficulties in math. Taking on the full power of parenthood authority, while taking nearly none of the responsibility makes him at best an *******.

Not to mention that, for someone so devoted to science, it is curious that he would choose a method which is pretty much proven to work poorly for the goal of getting her daughter properly educated, but does have characteristics quite typical of abusive parents.

[eee]

It really isn't that extreme. If she'd been caught cheating at a real school, getting retroactive failing grades for everything she''s cheated on would be the very beginning, even before disciplinary committees and such got involved. Extracurricular activities and permission to work part time jobs are generally based on academic standing, meaning those would be out. I've never been in a school where each year lived in separate quarters, but I'm sure if said cheating took the form of stealing homework from dormmates, at the very least she'd be moved out of Kat's dorm, maybe the whole dorm. Really, what Annie's getting here is the lightest punishment anyone could conceivably hope to get. A real student would probably be expelled for cheating on that scale.

Ah, but the thing is, Annie isn't your everyday student. She's part Fire Elemental. She's at least a strong user of the Etheric. She's a favorite of Coyote, and controller of Reynard. AND she's a fledgling hero, somebody who intervenes and rights wrongs and triumphs over evil. In other words, she's a MAJOR loose cannon, and I suspect one of the reasons the Court hasn't come down on her for the cheating or her other misbehaviors is precisely the fear she might react badly. Which, for the court, could be disastrous. Now, Tony seems to be trying to defuse that land mine by jumping up and down on it.

This may not work well...

[Felius]

It really isn't that extreme. If she'd been caught cheating at a real school, getting retroactive failing grades for everything she''s cheated on would be the very beginning, even before disciplinary committees and such got involved. Extracurricular activities and permission to work part time jobs are generally based on academic standing, meaning those would be out. I've never been in a school where each year lived in separate quarters, but I'm sure if said cheating took the form of stealing homework from dormmates, at the very least she'd be moved out of Kat's dorm, maybe the whole dorm. Really, what Annie's getting here is the lightest punishment anyone could conceivably hope to get. A real student would probably be expelled for cheating on that scale.

And sure, Anthony's not making this easy - but if I had kids, and I had to have this conversation with them, I'm pretty sure it would be a lot more Old Testament than New, if you get my drift.

And yes, I know this is probably all cover to get Annie out of the way for Anthony and the Headmaster's evil plan to build a baby eating moon laser or something.

The problem is, his actions are coming over as an intentional effort to humiliate and tear her down while attempting to control parts of her life that he has no right to, at least not with him being as distant as he makes himself. Or grabbing a specific example, if your hand is not her business, her life outside strictly what your position as a new teacher gets you is not yours either. Expelling her, even publicly, I could swallow, because it'd be an impersonal and "professional", so to speak, consequence of her actions. When he personalizes the way he did it, it becomes abuse, even if, taken completely coldly, the objective parts are lesser than it would have been otherwise.

[Mewtarthio]

Of course, the real evidence of abuse is the fact that he's stripping away every support structure she has and isolating her so he can control every aspect of her life. This is a serious red flag here. He does not have Annie's best interests in mind--If he thinks otherwise, he's a delusional narcissist.

[BannedInSchool]

Well, I could totally see him being completely oblivious to how much of a jerk he's being, that this is just the Way Things Should Be and he's asserting that.

[eee]

Of course, the real evidence of abuse is the fact that he's stripping away every support structure she has and isolating her so he can control every aspect of her life. This is a serious red flag here. He does not have Annie's best interests in mind--If he thinks otherwise, he's a delusional narcissist.

Or he's got a different view of Annie's best interests than we do. To wit: The Fire Elemental has to go. This is the only way Annie can have children and survive. He can't discuss this with her because the Elemental may be controlling her, and she probably wouldn't go along with his plans anyway. Sending her to the Court was a serious mistake, it has allowed her to develop personally and establish friendships and alliances which prevent him from removing the Elemental. At this point he has to isolate and control her so he can remove the Elemental and hope she's young and vibrant enough to recover.

Looked at that way, Tony's actions make sense and are even a demonstration of his love. He's willing to inflict necessary pain on Annie now to protect her life in the future.

He's still being a d**k, though.

AND stupid. He should ask Coyote, Jones, or any of the other major beings the Court is in contact with (Brinnie?) if there's a better way of doing this.

But then, he IS Anthony Carver.

[Mith]

Pretty sure Brinnie would put an axe through his head if he approached her. As for her old man, well he can be kind of like Coyote sometimes.

[Mewtarthio]

Or he's got a different view of Annie's best interests than we do. To wit: The Fire Elemental has to go. This is the only way Annie can have children and survive. He can't discuss this with her because the Elemental may be controlling her, and she probably wouldn't go along with his plans anyway. Sending her to the Court was a serious mistake, it has allowed her to develop personally and establish friendships and alliances which prevent him from removing the Elemental. At this point he has to isolate and control her so he can remove the Elemental and hope she's young and vibrant enough to recover.

Alternate plan: pay for her to get an IUD. Bam, death by Fire Elemental averted.

[eee]

Pretty sure Brinnie would put an axe through his head if he approached her. As for her old man, well he can be kind of like Coyote sometimes.

If she's still angry, more probably she'd give him the Knee so he'd be alive to appreciate the costs of cold shouldering a Valkyrie. As for the Old Man, yes, he can be tricky, AND capricious. On the other hand, he seldom causes trouble just for his own amusement...

Alternate plan: pay for her to get an IUD. Bam, death by Fire Elemental averted.

That option was available to Surma, too. She didn't take it. Indeed, it seems Annie's female ancestors each have been willing to have a child, even when they knew it would eventually kill them. It's as if the Elemental is a parasite that forces its host to breed so it will constantly have a young, strong body to inhabit.

I would suspect that might be Tony's view. The Elemental is a disease, and he's going to cure it so Annie can give him grandchildren without weakening and dying afterwards. The thing is, without the Elemental, Annie might not be Annie anymore. :(

[Ibrinar]

Extracurricular activities and permission to work part time jobs are generally based on academic standing, meaning those would be out.

Out of curiosity where are you from? Is that a general school thing where you are from or for boarding schools?

(I know the concept from japanese schools in manga and anime. Find the school having that much control about non school things very weird.)

[andrewas]

A boarding school acts in loco parentis - IE, they have rights over, and responsibilities to, their students equivalent to the rights and responsibilities of the actual parents. That would include the right to prevent the child taking on a part time job if it interfered with school work. Also, her actual father (not that he acts like it) works there and has full parental authority if the Court want to go beyond what rights they already have.

[Coidzor]

AND stupid. He should ask Coyote, Jones, or any of the other major beings the Court is in contact with (Brinnie?) if there's a better way of doing this.

Neither Coyote nor Jones would tell him if they knew by my reading of them. What makes you think they would?

What makes you think that the Aesir and Vanir would know how to separate out a Fire Elemental that's acting as a major component of a humanoid soul?

[Mewtarthio]

That option was available to Surma, too. She didn't take it. Indeed, it seems Annie's female ancestors each have been willing to have a child, even when they knew it would eventually kill them. It's as if the Elemental is a parasite that forces its host to breed so it will constantly have a young, strong body to inhabit.

I would suspect that might be Tony's view. The Elemental is a disease, and he's going to cure it so Annie can give him grandchildren without weakening and dying afterwards. The thing is, without the Elemental, Annie might not be Annie anymore. :(

Well, that first bit would be a dramatic plot twist. I'm not giving Tony the benefit of the doubt in that regard. It would be like assuming that Gregor Clegane is really a hero because maybe everyone he killed or terrorized was secretly a cultist of the White Walkers hell-bent on destroying the world.

Secondly, shouldn't Annie get a say in this? There's nothing remotely good or noble about subjecting someone to an experimental, potentially deadly treatment without their consent or even knowledge, no matter how much you think they need it. You don't get to declare someone else's sacrifice as "worth the risk."

[spectralphoenix]

Out of curiosity where are you from? Is that a general school thing where you are from or for boarding schools?

(I know the concept from japanese schools in manga and anime. Find the school having that much control about non school things very weird.)

In the US, the details vary by state but a lot of states require work permits for minors from their school or the local board of education. I don't know exactly what's involved in getting one, but I'd imagine this sort of thing would prevent it. Most school-supported extracurricular activities (particularly sports) have built in GPA requirements to participate.

However, you would likely have earned doing that kind of talk by not being an absentee father who never tried to help your children with their academic difficulties (not to mention all the other things in which he was not there to provide support). It is not like he was ever concerned with teaching her not to cheat, develop good studying habits and so on, nor was there to even notice her difficulties in math. Taking on the full power of parenthood authority, while taking nearly none of the responsibility makes him at best an *******.

Discipline is very much a responsibility. One that falls on Anthony by default, since none of the other adults in the Court are willing to do it. If the Donlans or somebody had already taken Annie to task for this and Anthony stepped in and tried to do his own thing, I'd agree with you. But the fact is, the Donlans and Eglamore either don't care enough or are too intimidated by Annie* to punish her, so Anthony's the only one for the job, personal failings or no. I'm not saying Anthony is a great or even passable parent. I'm not even saying he couldn't go about this better. But I am saying it needs to be done.

*A thought that hadn't occurred to me before people on the thread pointed it out. If all of the other authority figure candidates in Annie's life are too scared of her to punish her, than Anthony definitely needs to do this, even if it isn't going to look pretty.

[Coidzor]

Though that also raises the other question of why they were too scared to discipline her when they'd be clearly and unequivocally in the right and could have nipped this in the bud rather than allow things to get this far.

[eee]

Neither Coyote nor Jones would tell him if they knew by my reading of them. What makes you think they would?

What makes you think that the Aesir and Vanir would know how to separate out a Fire Elemental that's acting as a major component of a humanoid soul?

Why wouldn't Jones say? Coyote might or might not if he knew, depending on his mood and plans;but unless it were something like the dinosaurs, in which Jones believes it is best to let men figure out the facts about them on their own, I see no reason Jones wouldn't share any information she has, if asked. Especially since it would affect Annie. Surma and Jones may not have gotten along, probably due to Surma's jealousy over Eglamore. But Annie seems to be as close to a friend as Jones can have.

RE the Aesir and the thousand and one (plus) other gods of Earth: Given the human tendency to have sex with anything possible, I would assume elemental / human hybrids have happened before, and have probably followed the same course as Annie's situation. And perhaps some god, somewhere, had occasion to perform an elementalectomy, and can talk about the results. The thing is, as far as we can see, Tony's not asking. He's just bulling ahead and hoping he doesn't kill Annie in the process.

This is not good science... :(

Well, that first bit would be a dramatic plot twist. I'm not giving Tony the benefit of the doubt in that regard. It would be like assuming that Gregor Clegane is really a hero because maybe everyone he killed or terrorized was secretly a cultist of the White Walkers hell-bent on destroying the world.

You mean... he's NOT a hero and they AREN'T cultists? Oh DEAR!

(We really don't know if the Fire Elemental has a separate consciousness in Annie or not. It might contain the collective memories of all the women it's been a part of for centuries. If Annie could access that... O_O!)

Secondly, shouldn't Annie get a say in this? There's nothing remotely good or noble about subjecting someone to an experimental, potentially deadly treatment without their consent or even knowledge, no matter how much you think they need it. You don't get to declare someone else's sacrifice as "worth the risk."

Yes, Annie SHOULD have a say. But Tony's not giving it to her, just as he didn't ask permission before he stuck his bony fingers in her soul and pinned the elemental, putting her in a coma. He's just going ahead, convinced what he is doing is correct.

D**k. As I said.

[Lissou]

I think Carver is definitely being really rash, but I'm hoping there is more to it. That everything he's doing is part of another plan, or that he was ordered to act that way or something. At the very least, I think he thinks it's the right thing to do.

Doesn't prevent me from being really angry with him and the way he's acting right now. He seems to be going really overboard. On the other hand, his daughter has been cheating for years and apparently, everyone knows it and doesn't care? That is not good either, and I'm annoyed at those "everyone else". I do feel that she's been spoiled at times, probably because the adults want to overcompensate for her unhappy childhood. When she wasn't picked as the medium, it looked like everyone thought it should be a birth-given right... But my first though was, Andrew is a really, really good choice. Not only is he much gentler and more empathetic than she is, his power will be really helpful.

But after abandoning his daughter for years, I would expect a father to be warmer. But he's been characterized this way. Honestly, sometimes it seems like he doesn't care about his daughter at all. Then again, Donald said he's just weird about the way he shows affection.

I'm having a Harry Potter flashback here, quite honestly. The question I always wonder with HP, is why would his mother ever want anything to do with his father? He's a complete jerk. What did she like about him? Same kind of thing applies here. Except the father is still alive.

Anyway. I guess time will tell if there is more to it. It's good for Antimony to actually learn all this stuff rather than copy it without understanding any of it, but I wish she could have done that while still going to the higher classes that she was actually good at. And with Kat's help as a tutor or something. As it is, it seems like the guy is just trying to completely crush his daughter's spirit, not give her her best chance.

[Mith]

When she wasn't picked as the medium, it looked like everyone thought it should be a birth-given right... But my first though was, Andrew is a really, really good choice. Not only is he much gentler and more empathetic than she is, his power will be really helpful.

While that is true, my reasoning for Annie being the first choice was that she has such strong ties with the forest, that making her the Court medium would help balance that, and the fact that Jones had thought that Annie would be the best choice. And I doubt Jones thinks in terms of something as short term as hereditary birthright.

[eee]

Though that also raises the other question of why they were too scared to discipline her when they'd be clearly and unequivocally in the right and could have nipped this in the bud rather than allow things to get this far.

I suspect at first they didn't want to upset her. They expected Annie to be like Surma, a willing tool in their maneuvers against the Forest. Even better because she controlled Reynard. With all that, why worry about her cheating? Her obedience was all they needed.

The problem is, contact with Rey, Zimmy, Kat, Robot, Shadow, and Jones, and finding out about Diego and Jeanne, made her suspicious of the Court. And the summer in the Forest put her on the Forest's side. Naturally they wouldn't let her be Court Medium after that. It's not about forming a closer relationship with the Forest, it's about winning. And Annie wouldn't go along with that.

But punishing her for cheating at that point became dangerous. She's got Rey, she's the Forest Medium, she's a Fire Elemental with Etheric powers, she's got friends and allies; and she'd already showed she would simply ignore normal punishments, and there was no parental figure the Court could appeal to. Make her angry enough and she might defect to the Forest completely, which would be a disaster.

Now Tony is trying to rein her in. I think he's bungling it and she'll refuse to go along. I also think the Court may be aware of that risk, and they may have plans to come down on her like a ton of bricks if they have to: Neutralize her powers, lock her (and Rey) up, throw away the key. They did it with Rey, they did it with Jack, they might be able to do it to her. The thing is, the Dolans, Eglamore, Zimmy, her friends, the robots, Jones, Coyote, all those might object.

We could be looking at civil war in the Court.

[spectralphoenix]

While that is true, my reasoning for Annie being the first choice was that she has such strong ties with the forest, that making her the Court medium would help balance that, and the fact that Jones had thought that Annie would be the best choice. And I doubt Jones thinks in terms of something as short term as hereditary birthright.

What really annoyed me about that was the way the other adults reacted. The Headmaster had a legitimate reason not to pick Annie, even if they didn't agree with it, and at least Jones had talked about it with him beforehand. And yet they all decide to openly argue with him after he's announced his choice in front of Coyote and Annie* and everyone? Any self-respecting Evil Overlord whose underlings undercut his authority like that in front of a god and a couple of teenagers would have them scrubbing out the mutant pens with toothbrushes.

*Frankly, Annie shouldn't have been invited in the first place. Did he think he was running American Idol?

[Coidzor]

I suspect at first they didn't want to upset her. They expected Annie to be like Surma, a willing tool in their maneuvers against the Forest. Even better because she controlled Reynard. With all that, why worry about her cheating? Her obedience was all they needed.

...Because letting her get away with cheating makes her less obedient?

That's pretty straightforward to me.

She's got Rey, she's the Forest Medium, she's a Fire Elemental with Etheric powers, she's got friends and allies; and she'd already showed she would simply ignore normal punishments, and there was no parental figure the Court could appeal to.

None of whom would approve of her cheating and attempting to evade punishment for it save for Ysengrim and Coyote, who would be disappointed that she went about it in such an unsubtle and bad way.

Refresh my memory though, what normal punishments has she ignored?

Make her angry enough and she might defect to the Forest completely, which would be a disaster.

Why, exactly? Annie is really important to this story as a protagonist, certainly, but we don't actually know what the plans of the court are and what Annie ceasing to be human at all would do to them.

Now Tony is trying to rein her in. I think he's bungling it and she'll refuse to go along. I also think the Court may be aware of that risk, and they may have plans to come down on her like a ton of bricks if they have to: Neutralize her powers, lock her (and Rey) up, throw away the key. They did it with Rey, they did it with Jack, they might be able to do it to her. The thing is, the Dolans, Eglamore, Zimmy, her friends, the robots, Jones, Coyote, all those might object.

We could be looking at civil war in the Court.

Yeah, I don't see Eglamore or the Donlans being willing to kill over this or supportive of their daughter attempting mass murder either. Even Zimmy doesn't seem the type to be gungho about killing a lot of people, even with her low regard for others.

Coyote actively getting involved in assaulting the Court would be disastrous, although presumably they actually had something in place other than Jeanne against the possibility of such an eventuality. Even the robots should object to an assault on their home by forest creatures, and they're the most morally flexible of the potential allies, and even they have some level of reservation about harming humans if not hard coding to limit their capacity for doing so.

And if Annie tries to kill him or go on a destructive rampage then I really only see Ysengrim as supportive of it, though Coyote would probably be amused by it a bit. And if she tries to go on a killing spree then the Court would be right to come down on her like a ton of bricks, just like they were right to stop Reynardine in his murder spree and to have an interest in stopping Jack when he was possessed.

Granted, I also see most of those potentially involved in your scenario as capable of more subtlety than just immediately jumping straight to trying to destroy the court utterly.

[Lissou]

Refresh my memory though, what normal punishments has she ignored?

When she got detention a while ago she didn't go, and she said "what are they gonna do, tell my parents about it?"

I can't remember exactly when that was but it did happen a few times back then. I think both Kat and Renard talked to her about it.

[Kornaki]

When she got detention a while ago she didn't go, and she said "what are they gonna do, tell my parents about it?"

Maybe they did!

[eee]

When she got detention a while ago she didn't go, and she said "what are they gonna do, tell my parents about it?"

I can't remember exactly when that was but it did happen a few times back then. I think both Kat and Renard talked to her about it.

Yes, Annie has racked up a considerable string of detentions, demerits, and citations which she has simply ignored. It reached the point where Eglamore, when he was escorting her to the Forest back when, spoke to her about it and told her, straight out, she had to stop it, the Court higher ups were getting increasingly upset.

Get her angry enough, she might ignore Tony's attempts at discipline, as well, and insist on continuing in her current year studies and living quarters. Arranging for a tutor to bring her up to speed on the subjects she's cheated on. I'm sure that would upset the higher ups a lot, too. But again. She's got Rey, who the court seems to be almost as afraid of as Coyote, to the point they tried luring him over to their side by sending Surma out as a road company Mata Hari. Annie's a powerful Etheric user (thanks to Anja's training) and a Fire Elemental. And knows things about the Court I suspect the Court wants kept quiet. As well as a well known figure among the students and faculty. I imagine the Court will do anything necessary to keep her from running off to the Forest. Again. Especially if she takes Rey with her. Because the jolt to their situation would be considerable.

[Cyber Punk]

Today's comic: No, no please no! Let it be a dream! NO!

And the silly girl said 'okay'. What did her father do to her when she was a child, for him to render her so subservient?

[Drascin]

What really annoyed me about that was the way the other adults reacted. The Headmaster had a legitimate reason not to pick Annie, even if they didn't agree with it, and at least Jones had talked about it with him beforehand. And yet they all decide to openly argue with him after he's announced his choice in front of Coyote and Annie* and everyone? Any self-respecting Evil Overlord whose underlings undercut his authority like that in front of a god and a couple of teenagers would have them scrubbing out the mutant pens with toothbrushes.

*Frankly, Annie shouldn't have been invited in the first place. Did he think he was running American Idol?

Jones did talk to him beforehand. The discussion was implied to be that Annie would be chosen. And then suddenly he chooses Smits out of nowhere, so Jones goes "this was not what we talked about". And the adults' reaction clearly shows they all understand that this was done purely as a slight to someone - and I tend to assume it's in large part aimed towards Coyote. Coyote likes Annie, so choosing a medium the other side would like and feel predisposed towards would be the obvious choice if you want to improve relations, but he didn't. It's basically the Headmaster going "yeah, we don't give a **** what you think, I choose who I want when I want and I don't even WANT good relations with you people". So she needed to be there because he needed to make a point.

Of course then Coyote just short-circuited the whole thing, and Smitty turned out to be most emphatically not a puppet either and blow up plan B, and everything went crack.

The Headmaster is just not a good evil overlord, because he keeps assuming court people will agree to everything and non-court creatures are by definition too stupid to pull anything. He's lucky he's in a magic school adventure, because in a high fantasy story this kind of breakage of the Overord list probably would end up with him dead And if my theory about what is going on is correct, now that he's been slighted, he brings in Carver to lash Annie back.

[Rodin]

Welp.

This is now definitely not about Anthony suddenly trying to be a good dad. It's definitely a power play to take control of Annie.

The school stuff? Okay, I can see it, even if it was done in the crappiest way possible.

The Forest stuff? Really pushing it, as he's heading towards "That jerk father from Dead Poet's Society" route.

But this? Now he's gone full villain. There is no justifiable reason whatsoever, and soooo many obvious bad guy ones.

Next strip, Anthony kicks a puppy and steals candy from a baby.

[eee]

For pity sakes, Annie, GROW A SPINE and say "NO!"

If Antimony agrees to all these ridiculous conditions and is miserable - and I don't see any way she could be, otherwise - it will be all her own fault. Not Tony's. Hers.

Maybe that misery - prolonged and terrible - will be necessary for her to finally break free from him.

[DoctorFaust]

Honestly, at this point I'm hoping that this is another Zimmingham episode. I really can't see Annie having this little of a spine otherwise.