afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VI

[Urpriest]

So there are various implied connections between D&D settings and Earth. Is it implied that various Pantheons with real-world analogues (Finnish/Egyptian/Greek/etc.) got their start on Earth, or did they likely have their own worlds on the prime distinct from our own?

[afroakuma]

Ah that new thread smell!

Question for you 'Fro, celestial jails. We have Elysium and its Prisoner, there appears to be some jail on Celestia that gets used for souls and possibly other. What's the general outlook in your perspective on the Celestial predisposition on imprisoning people and/or souls. Any additional Canon you recall offhand?

Celestials are willing to imprison transgressors in the hope of rehabilitation, although there are many who believe in paying evil unto evil (as it were). Souls are a much sketchier topic; generally speaking, celestials are extremely opposed to the imprisonment of the soul. Other canon... none offhand, no.

So there are various implied connections between D&D settings and Earth. Is it implied that various Pantheons with real-world analogues (Finnish/Egyptian/Greek/etc.) got their start on Earth, or did they likely have their own worlds on the prime distinct from our own?

We know that the Pharaonic pantheon were worshiped on Earth at some point, but given their nature and power and the nature and lack of power of the world of Earth, it's likely that each of the major pantheons had their own home sphere and world. I've done some tentative sketch-ups of those worlds, but not much.

[enderlord99]

We know that the Pharaonic pantheon were worshiped on Earth at some point, but given their nature and power and the nature and lack of power of the world of Earth, it's likely that each of the major pantheons had their own home sphere and world. I've done some tentative sketch-ups of those worlds, but not much.

Earth? I thought the term was "The Prime world of Terra within the sphere of Solspace."

...Yeah, I guess "Earth" is less of a mouthful.

[Bad Wolf]

Is there anything that would happen if a cleric or a paladin became more powerful then their patron deity?

[Werephilosopher]

Earth? I thought the term was "The Prime world of Terra within the sphere of Solspace."

...Yeah, I guess "Earth" is less of a mouthful.

Do people who know of Earth (like Elminster) refer to it as such? Seems it could be easy to confuse it with the plane.

For that matter, how many people know of Earth, besides those who live on it? On Toril for instance, could an apprentice wizard learn of it in a "compendium of worlds"-type book at the wizard school library? Would such knowledge be held by higher-level and higher-status people, like archmages? Or would it be known by only a small few - Elminster and Mystra, obviously, perhaps one or two others?

[enderlord99]

Do people who know of Earth (like Elminster) refer to it as such?

No, they refer to it as Terra. Also, how do you know Elminster knows about it; sure, he knows a lot, but Solspace isn't even in the same quadrant of Arcane Space that the Radiant Triangle is!

Or at least, Solspace wasn't on that map. Or, at the very least, I couldn't find it there...

[Evolved Shrimp]

Also, how do you know Elminster knows about it

There are several Dragon articles describing meetings between Elminster and other high-level wizards (Khelben? …?) at the home of the Dragon writer, so Elminster appears not only to know about Terra/Earth but to have visited here.

[Clistenes]

Is there anything that would happen if a cleric or a paladin became more powerful then their patron deity?

The deity would turn the worshipper into a proxy long before that, which would give it the power to control its advancement.

[Tzardok]

There are several Dragon articles describing meetings between Elminster and other high-level wizards (Khelben? …?) at the home of the Dragon writer, so Elminster appears not only to know about Terra/Earth but to have visited here.

The articles (titled "The Wizards Three") where written by Ed Greenwood, the original writer of the Forgotten Realms, and the visiting wizards where Elminster, Mordenkainen and some powerful Dragonlance wizard, who was later replaced by his apprentice. I hope that helped.

[afroakuma]

Is there anything that would happen if a cleric or a paladin became more powerful then their patron deity?

And how do you propose this occur without said worshiper becoming a god and thus no longer deriving power from the worship of a deity?

Do people who know of Earth (like Elminster) refer to it as such? Seems it could be easy to confuse it with the plane.

Primes, even well-traveled Prime wizards, refer to the Elemental Plane by its full name. Only planars and natives call that plane "Earth." People who know of the world of Earth know it by that name and may have other names for it as well.

For that matter, how many people know of Earth, besides those who live on it?

Very very few.

On Toril for instance, could an apprentice wizard learn of it in a "compendium of worlds"-type book at the wizard school library?

Not likely. Between the flood of Invaders From Space, the Shou Lung spelljammer fleet, non-infrequent contact with the other worlds of the Radiant Triangle and the fact that Toril has many major space trade ports, spelljammer-based world-to-world contact is much more documented than travels to another world's alternate Prime equivalent. Any such compendium would document worlds like Krynn and Oerth, but Earth is not in the cards.

Would such knowledge be held by higher-level and higher-status people, like archmages? Or would it be known by only a small few - Elminster and Mystra, obviously, perhaps one or two others?

Earth's not of interest to many people, being, as I said, a world on an alternate Prime without native magic. On Toril, the only people likely to know about Earth are those who have had it mentioned to them by Elminster and some rare few who might have journeyed there themeselves at some point or communicated on the subject of alternate Primes with Mordenkainen or Dalamar. So, next to nobody.

The reason you're not finding Solspace on the map is because it doesn't exist; Earth is an alternate Prime with a different cosmology.

[enderlord99]

The reason you're not finding Solspace on the map is because it doesn't exist; Earth is an alternate Prime with a different cosmology.

Well, that's surprisingly convenient: I thought I would need to retcon that for the stories I'm working on involving the Plane of Shadow.

[afroakuma]

Nope, all good. You're covered.

[Naanomi]

Is Earth the source of the original Mulhulorandi immigrants, or was that just another world where the Egyptian pantheon was also big? If it was the former, than Earth may get a mention in the history books.

If Earth is an alternate Prime, how were these Wizards getting thet before the recent expansion of the Plane of Shadows? What other paths to Alternate Cosmologies exist besides the Deep Shadow?

[Evolved Shrimp]

how were these Wizards getting [there] […]?

IIRC, they are described as materializing out of thin air, so I’d assume Greater Plane Shift. (Or some variant thereof – no forked metal rods being held are mentioned, if memory serves.)

[afroakuma]

Is Earth the source of the original Mulhulorandi immigrants, or was that just another world where the Egyptian pantheon was also big? If it was the former, than Earth may get a mention in the history books.

Earth is the source of the original slaves who became the Mulan people, the ancestors of Unther and Mulhorand. However, the Imaskari likely didn't record the name of the world they came from, if they even knew it existed, and the Mulan people wouldn't have known at that level of their cultural existence that they were brought from an alternate Prime or what its name was, nor have they demonstrated a serious interest in their travelly past. Given that a span of nearly 500 years exists between when the portals were opened and when the Imaskari recorded their arcane lore, chances are pretty good that mentions of Earth are nonexistent.

If Earth is an alternate Prime, how were these Wizards getting thet before the recent expansion of the Plane of Shadows?

Those travels occurred before the cosmological shift, and there are a lot of different and bizarre magical interactions and constructs that can conceivably reach alternate Primes. We just don't have them enumerated.

[Fable Wright]

How did Doresain wind up going from relatively minor Demon Lord to a minor deity?

[Werephilosopher]

How did Doresain wind up going from relatively minor Demon Lord to a minor deity?

I just happened across this in the very first planar questions thread, so I guess I'll share it.

Doresain wasn't always pathetically weak (actualy, he isn't now, either). Long ago, Yeenoghu went and kicked his teeth in; Doresain knelt to the Prince of Gnolls and Stupid Stupid Violence. The King of Ghouls eventually escaped and began building power on the Negative Energy Plane; when some stupid stupid people let him into the Material Plane, he established an undead kingdom using his superghouls and the fact that he wields a mace of disruption because Doresain don't care.

Unfortunately, Doresain came down with a case of that strange disease that tends to plague evil beings doing evil things, and a few rather unfortunately terminal seconds later found himself back in the Abyss where his old friend Captain Fuzzybritches was waiting. Doresain got himself good and stunted for his troubles; however, despite all the crap that befell him, his little vacation on the Material Plane gave him some leverage he'd never had before. Doresain started acquiring power. Between 3.0 and 3.5, Doresain acquired godhood. Not a lot, Just enough.

Doresain's quite powerful now (i.e. don't think he's still a piddly CR 10) but doesn't want to take on Yeenoghu and lose. He'll bide his time until he's sure he can safely break out from under the heel of the Prince of Gnolls for good.

[afroakuma]

I really need to come up with some way of wikifying all these answers or otherwise making it more easily accessible.

[Tzardok]

Afro, in thread number 5 you said that guardinals promote over time. In the thread "Do Celestials get promoted" you said they (and curiously also eladrin) don't get promoted. Now which is true? And if yes, do their promotions follow some kind of pattern or hierarchy?

Edit: I just re-read a post you did in the very first planar questions thread and there you said that any being made from soulstuff (meaning exemplars) is recogizable by being able to take more (or less) powerful forms by becoming "more" of it's alignment. Now I am really confused. Please clarify.

[Eldan]

http://lopq.wikia.com/wiki/Library_o...uestions_Wikia

Here. Did the first page of this thread, I'll do more later if I have more time and am bored.

[afroakuma]

Afro, in thread number 5 you said that guardinals promote over time. In the thread "Do Celestials get promoted" you said they (and curiously also eladrin) don't get promoted. Now which is true?

No book makes any statement on the matter except the exceedingly terrible Warriors of Heaven. The answer from Glyphstone's thread was from that and from the lack of any other answer available in a book to note things one way or another. Neither eladrins nor guardinals get much fleshing out anywhere, sadly.

Within the context of this thread, Warriors of Heaven is specifically not an acceptable source and its information is not applicable. That's my final word on the subject.

[enderlord99]

I have a theory that Athas isn't metaphorically a dying world, but instead literally. Destination: Minethys. Whole sphere even go bye-bye soon; Then, Prime better off.

Me talk funny.

[Rogthnor]

My group has been having a lot of arguments on what exactly defines something as Lawful or Chaotic behaivor recently, owing in large part to how overlapping, and often contradictory the official material is on the subject, and I was wondering what your particular take on it was? I figured this would be the right place to ask since the law/chaos good/evil divide is so central to the outer planes.

[Brookshw]

; Then, Prime better off.

Is this like a dance off then?

[Eldan]

Page 2 of this thread is on the Wiki.

[Brookshw]

Page 2 of this thread is on the Wiki.

If I can find time I'd love to help with this. Not sure how you want to sort the workload. Shall I start with thread 2?

[Eldan]

If I can find time I'd love to help with this. Not sure how you want to sort the workload. Shall I start with thread 2?

Sure, that would be nice. I thought about starting thread 1, since I don't have much to do this afternoon.

It's about time we had another useful Planescape wiki, really. Mimir is a pain to negotiate sometimes, Planewalker, as far as I know, is still down (and was a pain to navigate before), I can't even find Portalseeker anymore...

[Brookshw]

Sure, that would be nice. I thought about starting thread 1, since I don't have much to do this afternoon.

It's about time we had another useful Planescape wiki, really. Mimir is a pain to negotiate sometimes, Planewalker, as far as I know, is still down (and was a pain to navigate before), I can't even find Portalseeker anymore...

Okay, I'll see what I can do time permitting.

Hey 'Fro, do we have your blessing for this endeavour? This is your brain child after all.

[ksbsnowowl]

My group has been having a lot of arguments on what exactly defines something as Lawful or Chaotic behaivor recently, owing in large part to how overlapping, and often contradictory the official material is on the subject, and I was wondering what your particular take on it was? I figured this would be the right place to ask since the law/chaos good/evil divide is so central to the outer planes.

Although it is blatant pro-devil propaganda, the introduction to Fiendish Codex 2 is quite eye-opening on the nature of Lawful Evil. That might shed some insight on that half of the struggle.

[afroakuma]

My group has been having a lot of arguments on what exactly defines something as Lawful or Chaotic behaivor recently, owing in large part to how overlapping, and often contradictory the official material is on the subject, and I was wondering what your particular take on it was? I figured this would be the right place to ask since the law/chaos good/evil divide is so central to the outer planes.

One of the important things to understand about Law and Chaos is that their perspectives are strongly rooted in how they want their world to be, moreso than what they want themselves and others to do. Law likes constraints, rules, predictability and order; Chaos likes the unexpected, the novel, the emergent and the unique. This is important because it means that rather than just your own choice of actions, Law and Chaos are very much about what you expect the world to do in reaction. A lawful evil character, for instance, may cheat at cards, but would be extremely offended to discover that his cheating has failed because someone else was also cheating. Why? Because nobody was supposed to be cheating. Hypocritical? Obviously. But it speaks to the mindset of a lawful character - they expect, and very nearly demand, that the world work in a predictable, rational way. Lawful good believes that doing so is best for everyone, lawful neutral believes that it's the only rational way for the world to be, and lawful evil believes that if everyone plays by the rules then you can make your bones by them, either by enforcement and lawyering or by compliance and strategic undermining. Lawful characters can lie, steal, cheat, deceive, defy... they just have very very clear ideas about what the outcome of those actions will be, as well as to what extent they either need or deserve to "break the rules."

Chaos desires freedom. Chaos thinks the world should mind its own business. If I say a purple duck is going to fall out of the sky and smack you in the head for touching a doorknob, a lawful character might ask for (or wait for) proof. A chaotic character will grab the doorknob and be offended at getting hit by a duck, because come on. Chaotic good thinks people should be free to improve themselves and not constrained by laws that would force them to live a certain way, that the world gets better when people have a choice. Chaotic neutral is totally individualistic, without any inherent need to improve the lot of others. Chaotic evil is nearly solipsistic in its total focus on the self.

Okay, I'll see what I can do time permitting.

Hey 'Fro, do we have your blessing for this endeavour? This is your brain child after all.

You do indeed. I do wonder, though, if the format of keeping the questions in is helpful. I'd like thoughts on that. I'd be more than happy, when a particular page is more complete, to go through and attempt to compile it into a stable article. Also I do recommend a page be set aside and links put in to notate "afro-canon," given how frequently it might come up.