afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VI

[afroakuma]

The Marketplace Eternal is an interesting place (Waukeen is my favorite FR power); is there any other examples of Gods from different pantheons working together so closely?

Certainly. Ubtao of the Chultan pantheon and Thard Harr of the Morndinsammar share the Forbidden Plateau, on Krigala in the Beastlands.

The Book of Vile Darkness (the artifact, not the other thing )

It's got a very interesting history from what I gather (e.g. Vecna's invovlement), but more than that I was hoping you'd be willing to go into it's powers and significance.

Like, its says that if a good character looks inside, there is an 80% chance they'll get attacked by an Evil Outsider that night. Is there any fluff to explain how or why this would happen?

Nope.

I mean, why would any given outsider care, and how would they a) know it happenend and b) get to the material so reliably/fast? It all just leaves a lot of open questions is all.

I would assume, given the fact that it is a minor artifact, that the fiend wishes to recover it from an unsuitable possessor. If this is the case, the book is likely enchanted to alert such a being with the capacity to arrive rapidly and put paid to the unworthy mortal.

[Clistenes]

Not sure this is the place to ask this, but, does anybody have an idea of how many people live on Athas? Or at least in the Tablelands?

[afroakuma]

Not sure this is the place to ask this, but, does anybody have an idea of how many people live on Athas? Or at least in the Tablelands?

The so-called "Tyr region" was estimated to contain less than a million people. Perhaps you can project off from that?

[enderlord99]

Not sure this is the place to ask this, but, does anybody have an idea of how many people live on Athas? Or at least in the Tablelands?

Zero, though there are people who exist on Athas.

[Jowgen]

I'm currently trying to consistently reconcile the Spirit World plane (from Spirit Shaman class and PlH) with the death rules from Ghostwalk and the standard great wheel cosmology without killing anything in the process.

So, i have the regular ethereal, the deep ethereal, the spirit world and the astral needing to be fitted together nicely; and I was hoping you might have some suggestions, please?

I've considered replacing the deep ethereal with the spirit world. I have considered having the spirit world as another coterminous "layer" to the ethereal. I've considered giving each plane an ethereal and the Spirit world acting as the connecting conduit between them like the astral does. None of it sits quite right with me for some reason though

[Eldan]

I'd consider just taking some features from the spirit world and giving them to the border ethereal. It's already a coterminous world to the material, inhabited by ghosts. The spirit world isn't much more than that.

[Jowgen]

I'd consider just taking some features from the spirit world and giving them to the border ethereal. It's already a coterminous world to the material, inhabited by ghosts. The spirit world isn't much more than that.

I'll consider it; but my beef with that idea is that the ethereal is meant to be the most peaceful/empty transitive plane. Adding the spirit world would lead to a massive content-spike that I really feel would take away from the desolate flavour.



Thinking about this, I actually just through of another very straight forward question: why do the souls of those who died on the material show up on the ethereal (of some variety) before heading to their final rewards through the astral? The Ethereal is clearly in no way required for "soul-traffic", as evident by the fact that dual-natured things can die and pass on while on any other plane no problem. So, if the ethereal suddenly disappeared, nothing would be lost in this regard, right? So why does it have that soul-pulling quality in the first place?

I suspect it's a legacy-thing; but in case not, what's the reason/point?

[Fable Wright]

I'm currently trying to consistently reconcile the Spirit World plane (from Spirit Shaman class and PlH) with the death rules from Ghostwalk and the standard great wheel cosmology without killing anything in the process.

I would say that the Spirit World as Ordial plane might work if it weren't an idea that afroakuma would flense me alive for. It's the place where belief becomes reality, is a transitive plane, and doesn't require repurposing much. Only problem is that as it's the link between the inner and outer planes, it's likely not coterminous with the material plane, and that the idea is so wrong that afro doesn't know where to begin.

[enderlord99]

So, that guy who was sent back to long ago and sealed in a rock by the Lady of Pain after trying to take over Sigil with a spell that required the destruction of some guy who was, long ago, sealed in a rock by the Lady of Pain...

How did his magical ability compare to that of the devil known as Armaros?

[Beriorn]

It's been hinted that if the Yugoloth were to finish the Tower of Incarnate Pain on Carceri it would link up with their other two towers and Bad Things happen. Has it been described exactly what these Bad Things are, or did the writers keep it deliberately vague to serve as a possible plot point?

[afroakuma]

I'm currently trying to consistently reconcile the Spirit World plane (from Spirit Shaman class and PlH) with the death rules from Ghostwalk and the standard great wheel cosmology without killing anything in the process.

Well that sounds like a bad idea.

So, i have the regular ethereal, the deep ethereal, the spirit world and the astral needing to be fitted together nicely; and I was hoping you might have some suggestions, please?

Given that the book explicitly states the Spirit World is intended for a radically different cosmology and occupies the same space as the Astral, I think you have a problem. Leaving aside the larger problem that the Spirit World and spirit shamans were very poorly done in 3.X

I've considered replacing the deep ethereal with the spirit world. I have considered having the spirit world as another coterminous "layer" to the ethereal. I've considered giving each plane an ethereal and the Spirit world acting as the connecting conduit between them like the astral does. None of it sits quite right with me for some reason though

Well, what exactly is it that you want the Spirit World to do? For what reason do you need all of these planes?

I'll consider it; but my beef with that idea is that the ethereal is meant to be the most peaceful/empty transitive plane.

No, that would be the Astral. It's not called the Silver Void because it's a festival of populousness. The Ethereal is home to a dizzying array of natives, not to mention frequent travelers.

why do the souls of those who died on the material show up on the ethereal (of some variety) before heading to their final rewards through the astral?

That's a Ghostwalk conceit. Souls don't go to the Ethereal unless they have a reason to. They got the notion because ghosts exist on the Ethereal. Souls that are not becoming incorporeal undead or aren't bound for the divine realm of a god who resides in the Ethereal head straight for the Astral.

So, that guy who was sent back to long ago and sealed in a rock by the Lady of Pain after trying to take over Sigil with a spell that required the destruction of some guy who was, long ago, sealed in a rock by the Lady of Pain...

How did his magical ability compare to that of the devil known as Armaros?

That's kind of like comparing a guy who speaks 120 languages with one who can speak and write fluent Lycian.

It's been hinted that if the Yugoloth were to finish the Tower of Incarnate Pain on Carceri it would link up with their other two towers and Bad Things happen. Has it been described exactly what these Bad Things are, or did the writers keep it deliberately vague to serve as a possible plot point?

The latter, as usual.

[Beriorn]

Are the Animal Lords deities, and if so of what level? Quasi-deities? Hero-deities? Demigods? Or something else?

[Jowgen]

Given that the book explicitly states the Spirit World is intended for a radically different cosmology and occupies the same space as the Astral, I think you have a problem. Leaving aside the larger problem that the Spirit World and spirit shamans were very poorly done in 3.X

Well, what exactly is it that you want the Spirit World to do? For what reason do you need all of these planes?

I share a campaign world with a bunch of other DMs, all of which run slightly different campaigns, but we aim to keep overall rules consistency so that players can switch if need be. Think the new Marvel Comics' Battleworld. We have corners for just about every location-based splatbook (Ghostwalk's been around for a while) and from time to time we add new ones. At this point, some of the others are wishing to introduce some spirit-world stuff in the oriental- and jungle-based corners that they're drawing up; and have asked me whether/how we can fit the addition of the spirit world in our cosmology.

No, that would be the Astral. It's not called the Silver Void because it's a festival of populousness. The Ethereal is home to a dizzying array of natives, not to mention frequent travelers.

Really? The astral always struck me as the far more dangerous locale; having Gith and Astral Dreadnaughts and the dead bodies of deities floating about (like Knowhere from Guardians of the Galaxy). I suppose I must have inferred that the ethereal was the safest based on that line describing Shadow as the least hospitable transitive (leaving only the Ethereal as the nicest in my mind) and how I know of no powerfull/dangerous natives. I imagine if I check back to one of the prior threads I'll find you elaborating on those ethereal natives and whatnot?

That's a Ghostwalk conceit. Souls don't go to the Ethereal unless they have a reason to. They got the notion because ghosts exist on the Ethereal. Souls that are not becoming incorporeal undead or aren't bound for the divine realm of a god who resides in the Ethereal head straight for the Astral.

Huh. The more you know. Thank you as always for bestowing your wisdom.

[Naanomi]

Could a power living in the Shadow Plane draw worshipers from multiple cosmologies (assuming those cosmologies were 'similar' in that they had belief powered Gods and whatnot)

[enderlord99]

Could a power living in the Shadow Plane draw worshipers from multiple cosmologies (assuming those cosmologies were 'similar' in that they had belief powered Gods and whatnot)

Not under most circumstances. However, I previously asked a question (which has so far gone unanswered, probably but not necessarily because it went unnoticed) that is fairly similar:

Would it be possible for someone (an epic-level psion with multiple personalities, perhaps) to undergo apotheosis whilst so deep within the Plane of Shadow that he can only gain power from (or grant it to) worshipers within that plane... but can do so regardless of which cosmology's section of the Plane of Shadow those worshipers reside within?

If not, I'll retcon it anyway; I'm only asking because I'm curious whether that retcon is actually necessary.

[afroakuma]

Are the Animal Lords deities

Nope.

I share a campaign world with a bunch of other DMs, all of which run slightly different campaigns, but we aim to keep overall rules consistency so that players can switch if need be. Think the new Marvel Comics' Battleworld. We have corners for just about every location-based splatbook (Ghostwalk's been around for a while) and from time to time we add new ones. At this point, some of the others are wishing to introduce some spirit-world stuff in the oriental- and jungle-based corners that they're drawing up; and have asked me whether/how we can fit the addition of the spirit world in our cosmology.

I'd recommend just building something new wholesale on the bits and pieces you've been given. I can help with that if you like.

Really? The astral always struck me as the far more dangerous locale

Dangerous? Possibly, but the question was regarding which is more barren and empty, and the Astral wins that hands down.

I know of no powerfull/dangerous natives

I give you the ethergaunts.

Could a power living in the Shadow Plane draw worshipers from multiple cosmologies (assuming those cosmologies were 'similar' in that they had belief powered Gods and whatnot)

Doubt it. There's no overlap between cosmologies in the depths of Shadow; rather, there's a point where you are no longer in one and not yet in the other.

[enderlord99]

Doubt it. There's no overlap between cosmologies in the depths of Shadow; rather, there's a point where you are no longer in one and not yet in the other.

The last time this was asked, you said that you were always in exactly one cosmology; now you're saying you can, in fact, be in zero?

EDIT: Either way, it seems like Teka will, indeed, require a retcon. The others won't, simply because I consider them to be purely Great Wheel deities.

[Naanomi]

Doubt it. There's no overlap between cosmologies in the depths of Shadow; rather, there's a point where you are no longer in one and not yet in the other.

Interesting. What works in this 'no cosmology land'? Presumably not divine magic... Arcane magic? Psionics? Is it a 'no supernatural' zone like the Spire?

[Tzardok]

I would imagine that it would look quite alien, not even trying to reflect familar things, but wouldn't work or "feel" different from the rest of Shadow. That is, I imagine, the shtick of Shadow, an unknowable, alien darkness beyond that is never quite there and therefor everywhere more or less the same. Of course, that is only my opinion.

[SirKazum]

Speaking of Shadow, its huge retcon always bugs me, especially if you really consider it as canon. Was it really an Ethereal demiplane just the other day? How could a demiplane become one of the major planes in the whole cosmology, especially within such a short mortal timeframe? (Since presumably there are materials set in old 2E cosmology and materials set in new 3E cosmology that are decades apart at most, if not years.) And how does that jive with the whole "accessing alternate cosmologies" thing - how come a plane that started deep within a given multiverse eventually become the only conduit between all multiverses? Was there no way to move between multiverses just years ago? Was there perhaps already a Deep Shadow connecting many different cosmologies, and the previous Demiplane of Shadow is just the way the Great Wheel found to tap into it? Or did this one demiplane from this one cosmology among many become responsible for creating a previously nonexistent connection between the many different multiverses?

BTW, I've been a huge Planescape fan ever since I first got it in 1994 (or was it 1996?), and I'm loving these threads. I bow to your superior knowledge of the planes and Wildspace. I wouldn't dare try fitting the many disparate cosmologies D&D has seen into a coherent whole (personally I prefer a "custom" cosmology for each setting, unless world-hopping is the whole point of the campaign), but I think it's a very commendable effort nevertheless.

[afroakuma]

The last time this was asked

Blugh, fine, whatever, here's my new answer:

Whatever gets me the least flippin' questions about alternate cosmologies and accessing them. Also no, you cannot be in overlapping cosmologies. For some reason. The end.

Satisfied?

Speaking of Shadow, its huge retcon always bugs me, especially if you really consider it as canon. Was it really an Ethereal demiplane just the other day? How could a demiplane become one of the major planes in the whole cosmology, especially within such a short mortal timeframe? (Since presumably there are materials set in old 2E cosmology and materials set in new 3E cosmology that are decades apart at most, if not years.)

Because there was a major cosmic restructuring between 2E and 3E - Vecna entered Sigil, causing massive damage to the structure of the multiverse, and the Lady of Pain sorted it all out again with a newer and tighter order.

And how does that jive with the whole "accessing alternate cosmologies" thing - how come a plane that started deep within a given multiverse eventually become the only conduit between all multiverses?

It had been a demiplane in the prior cosmology; that does not mean it was a demiplane in all cosmologies.

Was there no way to move between multiverses just years ago?

There were, and still are, many ways to theoretically accomplish it no I will not list them go away. The Plane of Shadow is just the simple one.

[Naanomi]

Afro's limit for alternative cosmology, vestige, temporal prime, or far realm questions is limited; you have to let him recharge after a while or the strange planar energies cause him to explode.

The Plane of Fire has fire of all sorts (it had fire that is cold, and fire that can burn other fire at the very least). Could one find Hellfire there if you looked hard enough, or is it not 'fiery' enough to find a home there.

How would locals (efreet, archomentals) react if someone devilish (an actual devil group or mortal cult, or maybe just deluded fire worshipers) made a large scale attempt to spread hellfire in the elemental plane of fire (or surrounding para/quasi)

[afroakuma]

The Plane of Fire has fire of all sorts (it had fire that is cold, and fire that can burn other fire at the very least). Could one find Hellfire there if you looked hard enough, or is it not 'fiery' enough to find a home there.

Hellfire isn't fire; it's Hell.

How would locals (efreet, archomentals) react if someone devilish (an actual devil group or mortal cult, or maybe just deluded fire worshipers) made a large scale attempt to spread hellfire in the elemental plane of fire (or surrounding para/quasi)

They would be extremely nettled.

[tzar1990]

What happens to elementals when they die on their home plane? Do they dissolve back into the fabric of the plane, do they just cease to exist, are they temporarily discorporated, or something stranger?

Also, if they do die, would it be possible for them to seek out some elemental analogue to undeath in order to escape? Could a Fire Elemental, for instance, link his essence to negative energy and death, becoming some sort of lich-like Ash Creature (or whatever the conjunction of Negative Energy and Elemental Fire gives you)? I know some outsiders can do this (looking at you, Orcus!), but I'm not as familiar with Elementals and how they work.

[enderlord99]

Also, if they do die, would it be possible for them to seek out some elemental analogue to undeath in order to escape? Could a Fire Elemental, for instance, link his essence to negative energy and death, becoming some sort of lich-like Ash Creature (or whatever the conjunction of Negative Energy and Elemental Fire gives you)? I know some outsiders can do this (looking at you, Orcus!), but I'm not as familiar with Elementals and how they work.

There is such thing as an undead elemental, but I don't think any of them become one on purpose.

Source

[WalkingTheShade]

There is such thing as an undead elemental, but I don't think any of them become one on purpose.

Source

Libris Mortis also has the cinderspawn, dessicator and voidwraith that are undead fire, water and air elementals.

[tzar1990]

Thanks! While they're not quite what I was looking for, they show that the idea, at least, isn't something too silly or somehow impossible to exist.

On another topic, I know that Sigil exists on the inside of a Torus - so what would someone find if they dug down while in Sigil, for whatever reason? Just stone followed by an infinite fall down the spire? The ruins of previous buildings that have been built over for an eternity? Some kind of unbreakable substrate? A rather peeved looking Lady of Pain?

[Eldan]

Undersigil, a network of Tunnels, sewers and ruins, fills most of the Torus. Full of unpleasant things.

[Tzardok]

Libris Mortis also has the cinderspawn, dessicator and voidwraith that are undead fire, water and air elementals.

The dust wight in MM3 is the fourth in that set, being an undead earth elemental.

[Eldan]

Strange idea. They sound more like the negative quasielementals. I mean, they even call them "dust" and the rest pretty clearly correspond too.