General Exalted Discussion XVII: Edition of Cascading Years

[golentan]

I guess I just don't see what having the Charm is doing for you in this case. I mean, if the Charm is mechanically identical to the Presence Excellency except for mote cost (generically a bit less efficient, situationally more efficient), like quite a few of the Presence Charms, then what prevents me from stunting in exactly the same way, and changing the story in exactly the same way, using the Presence Excellency?

I mean, I'm fully in favor of tweaking the rules on the fly to allow things that make sense but aren't supported in the rules (or things that don't actually make sense but are just sufficiently cool ), but I don't see how the player having five dice-adder Charms (that are redundant with the Excellency in terms of mechanical effect) helps with or facilitates that at all.

If you're interpreting charm fluff-text as opening up new mechanical options that would be barred to those with only the Excellency - that bothers me a bit. I find the 3e fluff-text is frequently aimed at pretty specific character concepts (which do not match mine), even on Charms that are at the base of trees that everyone investing in the ability will need to take, so my approach has been basically to treat it as 'here is one example of how this Charm could be interpreted'.

(Harmonious Presence Meditation: my Eclipse would like this Charm, if I ever had to convert her to 3e. The name sounds appropriate for a diplomat. But no, really, it is not about her "virility".)

One of my prime memories from 2e is of using Thoughtful Gift Technique not for the mechanical effect of the Servitude, but in order to show up a rival (Using the charm on the rival, they found the best gift was a gift for the head of the rival's great house. They then stunted it to find the WORST gift that could not be rejected out of hand and arranged for their rival to present the bad gift, consigning Junior to be the Unfavorite for years to come).

Other examples: Keychain of Creation using Changing Plumage mastery with Marena to arrange a quick-clothing change. In 3e, I don't have examples off the top of my head, but the gist of it remains: Look at your charms just not as dice adders or servitude effects, but how they act on the people around them, and how with a little tweak you can make them want to act.

[Guancyto]

That was one example of many. The sloppier the wording and consistency is (even in places that are really easy to be clear; does Force-Draining Whisper ignore the usual rules surrounding Supernal abilities + essence-locked upgrades, or not?), the harder it is to divine intent, and devs have acknowledged that intent is kinda sorta the whole game when things become ambiguous, or when you want to homebrew.

Like, Holden knows in his head what the huge and varied sources of Moar Dice in Craft are supposed to "feel" like and why they fit, and what the much more limited sources of Moar Dice for Melee are supposed to "feel" like but short of opening up his skull with a scalpel and a pair of tongs, it's pretty hard to do that! Not that it hasn't been tempting to do just that, but it's probably a bad formula for getting more Exalted (in the near-term, anyway). I'm not a game developer, particularly good at balance or practicing any kind of iterative design, it'd be really easy to break everything in half if I just let my imagination run wild.

This is why I both dread and really want the Exigents book which promises to provide guidelines on exactly this.

It also makes it, I dunno, harder to trust authorial intent when you get ambiguities you could drive a truck through (like in Wyld-Shaping Technique - for the Specific Land function, do you start again from Phase 1 with all the commensurate dice, costs and parameters? Do you start again with a Phase 1-esque area that rapidly grows again? If you want to build a ship can you make an ocean and use extra successes, or do you need an extra phase? If you want to build a city can you just declare that as your Specific Land? How in the heck does the "Everything Else" section actually work?) and those are the places where you really need to be able to trust authorial intent.

One of my prime memories from 2e is of using Thoughtful Gift Technique not for the mechanical effect of the Servitude, but in order to show up a rival (Using the charm on the rival, they found the best gift was a gift for the head of the rival's great house. They then stunted it to find the WORST gift that could not be rejected out of hand and arranged for their rival to present the bad gift, consigning Junior to be the Unfavorite for years to come).

Mildly related, but I was incredibly disappointed when they rejiggered Thoughtful Gift to be a Know the Soul's Price-alike and piled on the prerequisites to match. I just wanna combine it with Auspicious First Meeting Attitude and randomly get people suspiciously good presents, you know? It was one of the relatively few times I wanted to be a socialite (the other was the various Infernal takes on socialization, Adorjan's and Ebby's in particular where you actually had to consider people in order to either build them up or tear them apart).

[Lanaya]

That was one example of many. The sloppier the wording and consistency is (even in places that are really easy to be clear; does Force-Draining Whisper ignore the usual rules surrounding Supernal abilities + essence-locked upgrades, or not?), the harder it is to divine intent, and devs have acknowledged that intent is kinda sorta the whole game when things become ambiguous, or when you want to homebrew.

Sure, it's annoying that a lot of the phrasing is weird and there are confusing or seemingly redundant clauses in a lot of charms, but finding those things is the (official) reason we have access to the PDF already. If the errors like lore charms providing upgrades that you already have when taken as a supernal are still in the final book then that'll be something worth complaining about, but Holden's currently working through some absurd amount of feedback trying to fix all those issues so I'd hope that most won't be present in the final version. Similarly, the lack of homebrewing advice is a pain, but it would've been silly to try squeezing it into the already overly wordy core when one of the first major splats is going to be mostly homebrew advice. It's just something that we'll have to wait patiently for. Which does suck a bit now, but waiting for splats that cover the material you want is an unavoidable part of playing any game as big as Exalted.

[Guancyto]

If the numerous issues are fixed between now and release I will be over the moon about it.

I will also eat my hat, so I guess I had better enter my name into a lunar hat-eating contest now and save time.

Also, had a thought. Swift Gambler's Eye is kind of crappy (actually really crappy; more of a speedbump than anything) but it doesn't have to be. At present it only penalizes the other guy's Guile if you're trying to... well, basically just to figure out if he's bluffing at poker. Tells you if he thinks he's going to win.

It seems like it would be less speedbump-y and more likely to drive narratives if you took out the very specific restriction on results you could get with it. What you'd get would be a strong incentive to play cards with people if you wanted to sound out what they're like and what they care about; figuring out from their chess strategy if they were aggressive or reactive, or whether they consolidated their positions or were willing to make sacrifice plays, that sort of thing. Get a truer sense of their outlook based on how willing they are to go all-in compared to just talking with them.

I dunno, I might houserule it.

[ArchangelAzrael]

Hello there fellows! I tried to post a homebrew for 3rd edition and since I didn't get any response I thought I might leave the link here to draw some more attention to it. Thanks in advance!

Spoiler: homebrew battleforged ascention

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http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...tual-P-E-A-C-H

[tonberrian]

Grr I want to get into a game so I can play one of my growing list of character concepts.

[TheCountAlucard]

Grr I want to get into a game so I can play one of my growing list of character concepts.

Such as?

(C'mon, you can't just say something like that and then leave us hanging!)

[HalfTangible]

Grr I want to get into a game so I can play one of my growing list of character concepts.

I also want to get into a game.

But I'm coming up on finals week and am already in at least one high-maintenance game.

[tonberrian]

Such as?

(C'mon, you can't just say something like that and then leave us hanging!)

The latest is a night caste eunuch handservant-assassin.

[Ifni]

Mildly related, but I was incredibly disappointed when they rejiggered Thoughtful Gift to be a Know the Soul's Price-alike and piled on the prerequisites to match. I just wanna combine it with Auspicious First Meeting Attitude and randomly get people suspiciously good presents, you know? It was one of the relatively few times I wanted to be a socialite (the other was the various Infernal takes on socialization, Adorjan's and Ebby's in particular where you actually had to consider people in order to either build them up or tear them apart).

I've actually asked if we could houserule Know The Soul's Price to be pre-errata Thoughtful Gift Technique My Eclipse strongly does not want the Servitude effect, but would actually quite like to be able to tell what people would most like as a gift. It has been suggested she could just use existing KtSP and not invoke the Servitude effect, but... the way the Charm is written, that means if you find out what people want you must then refuse to give it to them, because fulfilling their wishes incidentally involves enslaving them to your will. Which seems awkward.

(Also, every time I think of Thoughtful Gift Technique, it reminds me of the scene in the Vorkosigan books where the master spy was reminiscing about the time when he had to bribe an ambassador and it turned out what he really wanted most in the world was an elephant. This is in a space opera series, note. There are probably no elephants on the planet in question.

Master spy to ambitious subordinate: "I need you to go collect a bribe for the ambassador."
Ambitious subordinate: "Yes sir. And what is the desired bribe?"
Master spy: "An elephant."
Ambitious subordinate: "... and how big does the elephant have to be, sir?")

TGT is a Charm I really liked, in 2e, precisely because it's interesting.

Sure, there's a place for dice-adders: one of my fondest memories of 2e is having my Eclipse persuade Chejop Kejak to read her proposal for the future of the Immaculate Order, using Irresistible Salesman Spirit. It wasn't just because of ISS, of course. He still could've stopped the social attack easily if he'd wanted to, via use of perfect defenses / Resplendencies / Willpower, and I suspect part of the reason he didn't was the other RP elements of that scene (the Eclipse started it with an apology for the Usurpation, and her manifesto was her best good-faith attempt at an answer to a question that Chejop's apprentice had asked her). But at least with ISS I could be pretty sure it wouldn't just bounce off MDV. Sometimes it is fun to just roll a lot of dice and say "Fifty-two successes". But I would probably resent ISS if it was actually five separate Charms, each of which increased your expected successes/die by 20%, and I had to buy all of them before I could learn You Can Be More. (I mean, I didn't like the prerequisite of You Can Be More in 2e, but at least it was only one Charm.)

I like the 3e Charms that say "instantly figure out cultural norms", or "make people see you as a good target for their schemes", or that kind of thing - I can see how to use those in a way that's interesting to the story. The ones I don't like are the multiple iterations of "Due to having a good poker face, you are harder to read, and can add dice to your Guile". Or "Due to your magnetic personality, you can add dice to your Presence roll. In [circumstances], you can add extra dice." We consolidated the Excellencies. These do not need to be separate Charms.

As far as I can tell, the reason they're separate Charms is because Holden et al like the idea of finely granular power/skill levels in various specialties, and advancement being in significant part a matter of getting slowly better at things you're already very good at, so there's a meaningful distinction in terms of just straight-up numbers between The Strongest Guy In The World and Starting Solar With An Athletics Excellency And A Maxed Pool. I find this a very boring advancement model. That doesn't mean they're wrong, just that I'm not in their target audience on this one. But I feel like I'm not alone in that.

(A while back, I went through the Socialize tree with a weed-whacker. I actually really like the tree if you cut it from ~50 Charms down to ~35 Charms, and disentangle some of the prerequisites.)

Regarding Swift Gambler's Eye and other speedbump Charms, I noticed this set of proposed houserules on rpgnet:
list of houserules
The poster did a very careful and detailed read-through of Ex3 on the Onyx Path forums, which I found very useful, and I like some of the ideas here. Might do something like this if I run a 3e game, although if we get lucky some of the codification of mechanics might be in the final version.

[Sith_Happens]

Random question, what are the Immaculate names for the Lunar castes?

[Recaiden]

Random question, what are the Immaculate names for the Lunar castes?

Frenzied = Full Moon
Trickster = Changing Moon
Ogre = No Moon
Moon-mad = Casteless

[golentan]

(Also, every time I think of Thoughtful Gift Technique, it reminds me of the scene in the Vorkosigan books where the master spy was reminiscing about the time when he had to bribe an ambassador and it turned out what he really wanted most in the world was an elephant. This is in a space opera series, note. There are probably no elephants on the planet in question.

Master spy to ambitious subordinate: "I need you to go collect a bribe for the ambassador."
Ambitious subordinate: "Yes sir. And what is the desired bribe?"
Master spy: "An elephant."
Ambitious subordinate: "... and how big does the elephant have to be, sir?")

TGT is a Charm I really liked, in 2e, precisely because it's interesting.

Oh my god yes!

Spoiler: Vorkosigan Saga Spoilers

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Or later in that book, paraphrasing, "I knew he was guilty when he tried to bribe me, but I couldn't prove it was a bribe unless I found evidence he was guilty." Plus, I bet you could stunt a defense from Know the Soul's Price with "The one thing it turns out you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart." Speaking of, I desperately want to make a 3e Dawn caste based on Miles (War, Awareness, Dodge, and Resistance caste for sure, since even though he's frail he has all his weird drug reactions which amount to immunity and his ability to keep on trucking through sheer willpower right up until he collapses with an ulcer or he's broken so many bones he's physically immobilized rather than just in mind-melting pain, probably archery to round the set, and then of course all sorts of social abilities and some larceny to represent his bald-faced prevarication and sheer charisma). Or a Zenith based on Cordelia, which I bet would be incredibly fun, but probably not catch as many double takes, since I imagine my Miles-alike literally doing as the quote in Komarr says and jumping in front of a parade to assert leadership over the marchers...

(It's my favorite book series, my favorite book is not from it but as a series it's my favorite).

[Guancyto]

(A while back, I went through the Socialize tree with a weed-whacker. I actually really like the tree if you cut it from ~50 Charms down to ~35 Charms, and disentangle some of the prerequisites.)

I like everything you're saying here; could you go over this in more detail? I'm quite interested in hacking both Socialize and Craft into more manageable forms.

[Sith_Happens]

Hm, so Harmonious Presence Meditation decreases the cost of all social influence Charms by one mote to a minimum of 1m. Does that include Excellencies, effectively making the first die free if you're buying at least two dice?

[Ifni]

I like everything you're saying here; could you go over this in more detail? I'm quite interested in hacking both Socialize and Craft into more manageable forms.

Here are some notes. This is not polished, just my first thoughts when I was playing around with the tree. Most of it involves breaking the Socialize tree into short sub-trees, making it easier to focus on only the aspects of the Ability that you like. This may not be consistent with 3e design in general, and may well lead to results that are too powerful relative to other 3e trees; I make no guarantees of balance. I started out by dividing the Charms up by area of focus, then made each of those areas an individual short tree, and then looked at consolidating or removing Charms within those areas. But yeah, this is definitely just a starting point, not any kind of recommended set of houserules. (For one thing, I haven't reassessed Essence/Ability prereqs or mote/WP costs...)

Spoiler

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Guile/Read Intentions Charms: (13 Charms total)

Trying To Figure Me Out Is A Terrible Idea (5)
GLORIOUS SOLAR POKER FACE (placeholder name) - Night Passes Over + Guarded Thoughts Meditation. Indefinitely raise Guile by 3 points, plus can reflexively spend 2m to ignore all penalties to Guile for an action. [If keeping granularity is desired, could make initial Charm weaker, and have improvements to POKER FACE as their own line of Charms. But I think this is still weaker than "Indefinitely add +3 dice to all social rolls ever", over in Presence.]
Easily-Discarded Presence Method - requires GLORIOUS SOLAR POKER FACE, make people who failed to see through your Guile think they did, and dismiss you for the rest of the scene
Selfsame Master Procurer - upgrades Easily-Discarded Presence Method, adds another option, allows you to instead make people see you as a route through which they can achieve their goals
Inverted Ego Mask - upgrades Easily-Discarded Presence Method, adds another option, Solar can now twist the context of successfully detected Intimacies in addition to other effects
Soul-Void Kata - requires Selfsame Master Procurer and Inverted Ego Mask, sends people catatonic for a scene when they try to read your intentions

I Know Everything About You (5)
Motive-Discerning Technique: As in book, but Socialize 4+ repurchase is automatic. Socialize 5 repurchase is an Essence 4 benefit that comes automatically with Supernal.
Quicksilver Falcon’s Eye: Based on original Quicksilver Falcon's Eye and Intent-Tracing Stare. Requires Motive-Discerning Technique, scene-long, sense whenever someone makes a Read Intentions action and whenever someone uses Resolve/Guile. When someone defends with Resolve can automatically use guess-Intimacy function of Motive-Discerning Technique.
Wise-Eyed Courtier Method: requires Quicksilver Falcon’s Eye, multi-target read intentions Charm.
Knowing The Soul’s Price: requires Quicksilver Falcon’s Eye, single-target read-price Charm.
Understanding The Court: requires Wise-Eyed Courtier Method and Knowing the Soul’s Price, does what it says on the tin

... And I Have Some Other Tricks (3)
Face-Charming Prana - social attack to make someone try to read intentions on you. No prerequisites (but goes well with the Poker Face tree).
Deep-Eyed Soul Mirror: based on Deep-Eyed Soul Gazing + Seen and Seeing Method, requires GLORIOUS SOLAR POKER FACE and Motive-Discerning Technique, grants a reflexive read intentions action with a bonus when someone attempts to read you.
Fete-Watcher Stance: requires Wise-Eyed Courtier Method, upon noticing hostile intentions, gain Awareness and Join Battle bonuses and share with allies.

[Notes: Aside from messing around with the prereq structure, Night Passes Over and Shadow Over Day are effectively rolled into Guarded Thoughts Meditation, and Penumbra Self Meditation is dropped, in this realization. Intent-Tracing Stare is merged into Quicksilver Falcon's Eye. Humble Servant Approach, Umbral Eyes Focus, Dauntless Assayer Method and Cunning Insight Technique are dropped. Deep-Eyed Soul Gazing and Seen and Seeing Method are combined.

Total Charms removed/consolidated: 9]

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Persona Charms: (7 Charms total)

(Wo)Man With A Thousand Faces (7)
Heart-Eclipsing Shroud - requires GLORIOUS SOLAR POKER FACE, create personas based on Intimacies.
Hundred-Faced Stranger - give personas Abilities and specialties.
Legend Mask Methodology - now they can learn Charms. Synergizes with disguise Charms.
Draw the Curtain - personas gain XP faster.
At Your Service - reflexively become what someone else wants you to be.
Fugue-Empowered Other - reflexively use persona Charms/abilities for a single tick.
Soul Reprisal - become one of your personas when you would otherwise die.

[Notes: I barely changed this tree, aside from the pruning at its base - it already seems pretty strong. Maybe too much so, from the discussions I've seen online.]

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Social-Fu Charms: (8 Charms total)

They Sabotage Themselves, I Hardly Have To Do A Thing (5)
Asp Bites Its Tail - general social counter-attack, turn a target’s claim back on himself.
Aspersions Cast Aside - requires Asp Bites Its Tail, make someone else look like an idiot.
Doubt-Sowing Contention Method - requires Asp Bites Its Tail, make someone else fail a social influence roll.
Endless Obsession Feint - requires Asp Bites Its Tail, make someone obsessed with you when defeated.
Venomous Rumors Technique - requires Asp Bites Its Tail, slander someone.

Savoir Faire, I Have It (3)
Mastery of Small Manners - adapt to expectations of a host culture, induce temporary minor Intimacies
Culture Hero Approach - requires MoSM, learn purposes of unfamiliar rituals. [Seems quite narrow, can we make it broader? If not, okay as-is, with no other Charms requiring it]
Indecent Proposal Method - Indecent Proposal Method as written + Unimpeachable Discourse Technique. Requires MoSM, supplements an instill/bargain/persuade action, prevents people from taking offense, and reroll 1’s if the effect pertains to group policy and MoSM applies.

[Notes: I thought these areas had less deadwood. Rolled Unimpeachable Discourse Technique in with Indecent Proposal Method as a general Diplomats Want This Charm. Otherwise kept most of the Charms, just slashed at prerequisite connections.

Total Charms removed/consolidated: 1]

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Miscellaneous Charms: (5 Charms total)

Friendship Is Magic (2)
Wise Counsel - enhance an ally’s Socialize actions. [Draw mechanics from Effective Counterargument, Discretionary Gesture, Wise Counsel. Possibly use a "pick one option for free, get others for extra XP" structure.]
Friend of a Friend Approach - when encountering a stranger who has a positive Major or Defining tie to someone who has a Defining Tie to the Lawgiver, if the stranger knows it, they get a minor tie for the Lawgiver.

Here Be Dice (3)
Preeminent Gala Knife - requires 5 Socialize Charms, Socialize-based mote-regainer.
Unbound Social Mastery - requires Preeminent Gala Knife, free full Socialize Excellency once/scene
Even-Touched Prophet - requires Preeminent Gala Knife, once/scene apply double 8’s rule to a Socialize-based action

[Notes: I dropped Elusive Dream Defense due to a deep dislike of once/story Charms - it's one thing if there's a long-term impact like "extra Evocations" or "bonus XP", but that's not the case here. Friend of a Friend Approach could pretty easily be dropped, but I can imagine people wanting it, so it stays (as a stand-alone Charm with no prereqs) for now. Effective Counterargument, Discretionary Gesture, and Wise Counsel seem like they could be consolidated.

Total Charms removed/consolidated: 3]

In the end there are 33 Charms, down from 46 originally. The ones that were essentially removed altogether are:
-Elusive Dream Defense
-Penumbra Self Meditation
-Humble Servant Approach
-Umbral Eyes Focus
-Dauntless Assayer Method
(that said, in another draft I have Dauntless Assayer Method in there as a Charm that nothing else requires as a prereq, and would also be fine putting Penumbra Self Meditation in that category)

The ones I was thinking of rolling wholly or partially into other Charms are:
-Cunning Insight Technique
-Unimpeachable Discourse Technique
-Night Passes Over
-Shadow Over Day
-Deep-Eyed Soul Gazing
-Discretionary Gesture
-Effective Counterargument
-Intent-Tracing Stare
(these last three are all effects I quite like, I just felt they could probably be merged with related effects without overpowering anything)

You could do something intermediate between this and the canon Socialize tree by reinstating some of the prereq linkages between sub-trees, if you wanted - even compared to 2e charmsets, I think this has quite a lot of zero-prereq entry-level Charms as currently written. (As I said, I was looking at what would happen if I tried to slice it into separate sub-trees.)

[Sith_Happens]

So I currently have Excellent Friend Approach on a character I'm playing but it suddenly occurs to me that it seems pretty darn unnecessary. Like, how much of a benefit is "You don't have to roll" really when your target is already taking -3 Resolve from having a positive Defining Tie towards you?

Thoughts?

[Xefas]

So I currently have Excellent Friend Approach on a character I'm playing but it suddenly occurs to me that it seems pretty darn unnecessary. Like, how much of a benefit is "You don't have to roll" really when your target is already taking -3 Resolve from having a positive Defining Tie towards you?

Thoughts?

Maybe it's so you can convince your friend to do something so tremendously offensive to them that the bonus they would get to resist is greater than the -3 from a Defining Tie. Combined with Indecent Proposal Method, I don't think they'd even be allowed to get mad at you?

These are the monsters of the grimdark setting we're talking about, after all. Think horrifically.

[The_Snark]

So I currently have Excellent Friend Approach on a character I'm playing but it suddenly occurs to me that it seems pretty darn unnecessary. Like, how much of a benefit is "You don't have to roll" really when your target is already taking -3 Resolve from having a positive Defining Tie towards you?

Thoughts?

Yup, that was my impression when I first read it. I feel like most STs will not be calling for rolls in this situation even if you don't have this Charm: you're the love of their life/their closest friend/unquestioned liege-lord, and all you want is a mildly inconvenient task? I've never seen a ST pull out the social rules for something like that. And even if they want you to roll for some reason (maybe the Defining Tie is imposed by magic, and they don't actually have a compelling reason to you aside from said magic), it's a pretty trivial roll. Presence has lots of Charms aimed at overcoming your target's Resolve already.

Maybe it's so you can convince your friend to do something so tremendously offensive to them that the bonus they would get to resist is greater than the -3 from a Defining Tie. Combined with Indecent Proposal Method, I don't think they'd even be allowed to get mad at you?

These are the monsters of the grimdark setting we're talking about, after all. Think horrifically.

Finding something that's horribly offensive yet does not qualify as worse than inconvenient might be tricky... and weirdly, this actually makes it easier for them to resist in a Decision Point: normally they wouldn't be able to use whatever Intimacy they used to boost Resolve as their justification for spending Willpower, but you skipped past that part, so they're spared the trouble of trying to find a second Intimacy that contradicts your influence.

[Ifni]

Yeah, that one's on my list of Charms That Shouldn't Be A Charm. I mean, if the NPC target of one of my PC's Defining positive Intimacies asked her to undertake an inconvenient task for them, it's pretty hard to imagine my response to the GM being "Please have them roll social influence" - it would always be either "Sure" or "Can I do it later? I'm busy right now" (and if they said "No, it really can't wait", she would drop what she was currently doing).

I mean, this seems to be literally the kind of "Light of my life, would you take the trash out?" situation that I think 2e explicitly mentioned should not be handled with the social combat system

@Xefas: to clarify, you only don't need to roll if the task is at the level of "inconvenience" - i.e. you only need people to have a Minor Intimacy you can play on in order to attempt it. The Charm just means that if you can persuade a casual acquaintance to do a task for you, then you don't have to roll to get someone who worships you to do it.

I think it's probably meant to be used with the sex Charm that gives people a temporary Defining Intimacy toward you. (I strongly dislike the fact that there appears to be exactly one way to impose Defining Intimacies by magic in 3e, and it requires having sex with the target, but that's a separate issue.) But still, as others have said, the roll should be pretty easy anyway.

[Sith_Happens]

I think it's probably meant to be used with the sex Charm that gives people a temporary Defining Intimacy toward you.

That's definitely what I picked it up for but thinking about it what's the point even then? Being able to leverage a Tie of lust on pretty much any request you want is just a matter of how you ask anyways.

(I strongly dislike the fact that there appears to be exactly one way to impose Defining Intimacies by magic in 3e, and it requires having sex with the target, but that's a separate issue.)

I definitely noticed a glaring gap in the Presence tree the first time I read it, that being "Wait a minute, where are the Charms that directly fiddle with Intimacies?" Something like the following, maybe:

Heart-Stirring Method

[Cost, mins., etc. TBD]

Magnifying her presence with glorious Essence, the Solar can inflame a listener to great passions. This Charm supplements an instill action to create a new Intimacy. If the roll is successful, the new Intimacy is created at the Major level instead of the Minor level.

[Swooper]

Pardon me for changing the subject from socialize charms and whatnot, but I'll be playing in an Exalted third edition game (my first non-oneshot Exalted game I might add) starting soon, and I'll be playing a sorcerer. If I'm reading the rules regarding thaumaturgy correctly, by knowing Terrestrial Circle Sorcery I get the Thaumaturgist merit for free, and a ritual along with it (though I admit the text is not clear on that last bit - but what's the point otherwise?). The list of example rituals in the core book is quite small though, so I was wondering if anyone has made some homebrewed rituals you're aware of?

Secondly, has anyone bothered to convert spells from 2E yet (e.g. White Treatise)? I wouldn't mind having a broader selection of spells to pick from, and it looks like the 3E equivalent to White & Black Treatises is a ways off.

[Lanaya]

If I'm reading the rules regarding thaumaturgy correctly, by knowing Terrestrial Circle Sorcery I get the Thaumaturgist merit for free, and a ritual along with it (though I admit the text is not clear on that last bit - but what's the point otherwise?).

It's just so you can buy thaumaturgical rituals if you want to without having to pay a large merit tax at chargen, you don't get a free ritual for being a sorcerer. Terrestrial Circle Sorcery is already the biggest bag of goodies in the game and quite possibly the best single charm you can buy, getting a free thaumaturgical ritual on top of everything else would make it unnecessarily amazing.

Secondly, has anyone bothered to convert spells from 2E yet (e.g. White Treatise)? I wouldn't mind having a broader selection of spells to pick from, and it looks like the 3E equivalent to White & Black Treatises is a ways off.

The sorcery book, Paths of Brigid, is actually going to be one of the first splats released for 3e - though given the edition's track record, that would still make it quite a long way off.

[Swooper]

It's just so you can buy thaumaturgical rituals if you want to without having to pay a large merit tax at chargen, you don't get a free ritual for being a sorcerer. Terrestrial Circle Sorcery is already the biggest bag of goodies in the game and quite possibly the best single charm you can buy, getting a free thaumaturgical ritual on top of everything else would make it unnecessarily amazing.

Aha, fair enough. My questions stand though, free ritual or not.

[Serafina]

P. 166 says "Exalted character who take the Charm Terrestrial Circle Sorcery gain this merit at no cost."

That's it. No line in the book says anything about learning a Ritual due to having the Merit - neither the Merit itself, nor anything on p. 490 (which talks about Thaumaturgy).

If you want to learn Thaumaturgy you have to pay experience points for it, or take the charm Dark-Minder's Observance which grants you (Essence) thaumaturgical rituals for free. Given that the charm costs at least 8 XP (and as a charm can not be paid for by SolarXP) and rituals cost either 3 or 5 XP, this charm is only really worth it at higher Essence-ratings.

[Guancyto]

Ah, grammatical ambiguity...

[Swooper]

P. 166 says "Exalted character who take the Charm Terrestrial Circle Sorcery gain this merit at no cost."

That's it. No line in the book says anything about learning a Ritual due to having the Merit - neither the Merit itself, nor anything on p. 490 (which talks about Thaumaturgy).

If you want to learn Thaumaturgy you have to pay experience points for it, or take the charm Dark-Minder's Observance which grants you (Essence) thaumaturgical rituals for free. Given that the charm costs at least 8 XP (and as a charm can not be paid for by SolarXP) and rituals cost either 3 or 5 XP, this charm is only really worth it at higher Essence-ratings.

Yup, I got that already from the previous reply. No one has answered my actual questions yet though, which were about homebrewed thaumaturgy rituals and conversions of 2E spells. I guess they were the sort of questions that don't get answered if the answer is "no" though...

[tonberrian]

Current inspiration: soulsteel-moonsilver alloy armor forged from the soul of a deceased lunar mate, exploring the concepts of clingy jealous ghost lover and nightmare, in all senses of the word.

[Ifni]

I am not aware of homebrewed spells or rituals - they probably exist, but I don't know where.

Going back a bit, Miles Vorkosigan as Solar is an interesting thought, although I'd be inclined to tag him as Supernal Presence (a case can be made for Supernal War, but he's really really good at talking people into going along with his plans). In fact, I feel like that would be a good starting point to fill out the Presence tree some more - what should Miles Vorkosigan, Supernal Presence Solar, be able to do?

(Off-hand: something to boost bargain actions. Instill Intimacies he himself shares. Make it easier to talk people into Crazy Plans, e.g. by lowering the level of Intimacy it requires. We've already got Be Deeply Intimidating Charms and Be Sexy Charms, although the latter isn't really Miles' specialty - he gets a fair amount of sex, but it's not generally a means to an end, except that one time with Taura, and there it was more a matter of "building up someone else's self-confidence" rather than "making them fall in lust with you". Empowering Shout gives Make People Better At What They Do; perhaps an upgrade could be some kind of continuous group effect, like Heroism-Encouraging Presence in 2.5.)

[Inspector Valin]

Well, we've got a look at Perfect Soul.

I... Ok, I hate Perfect Soul on a bunch of levels. I have problems with the story and the writing. But leaving that aside for the moment... what's the point of Jiara when we've got canon characters THIS caught up in it? Are we supposed to replace them with our own? Interract with them as allies? Seems weird when it's Perfect Soul's land. Solars don't usually just work for an older Solar (at least not PC Solars.)