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Thread: Am I doing 5e wrong!
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2016-04-19, 07:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
Its bad when the DM has to twist and convolute the plot and world to prevent a player from breaking the game.
Started work on a 5E OGL SRD game that might get released on Drivethrurpg.com
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2016-04-19, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
"didn't allow for houserules"?
what? How did you play without house rules? Did you actually run the game exactly as presented in Gygaxes wandering, mildly condescending, prose? 1hp/1 spell wizards and all?
That is some dedication.
Is this one of those "the rule that the DM can do what they please is not expressly spelled out so they clearly are not allowed to" arguments? Cause if so you are going to make be break out my 1st edition DMG and read the STD and Struck by Lightning tables and laugh out loud for a bit... and for this I thank you... been too long since I dusted that off
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2016-04-19, 08:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-04-19, 08:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
Back when D&D was new, they almost never used house rules. They were more like military exercises requiring precise execution to work properly.
I didn't say they didn't NEED house rules. I just said you weren't supposed to use them. Almost everyone did use house rules because the game was otherwise nearly unplayable to the point that it was a pre-cursor to the Dark Souls series of games. Just leaving your bed in the morning was a risky proposition.Its bad when the DM has to twist and convolute the plot and world to prevent a player from breaking the game.
Started work on a 5E OGL SRD game that might get released on Drivethrurpg.com
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2016-04-19, 08:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2016-04-19, 08:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
From the 1e DMG's introduction, "The game is the thing, and certain rules can be distorted or disregarded altogether in favor of play."
From the 2e DMG's introduction, "In short, follow the rules as they are written if doing so improves your game. But by the same token, break the rules only if doing so improves your game."
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2016-04-19, 08:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
Gary Gygax had house rules for OD&D. http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/...-rules-for-odd
But there's also clear evidence that he wasn't entirely happy with not only the game's allowance for house rules, but actually reliance on them. In The Dragon #26, he wrote:
Originally Posted by Gary Gygax
Originally Posted by Gary Gygax
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2016-04-19, 08:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2016-04-19, 08:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
That was .... thorough.
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2016-04-19, 08:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
"Barracks room lawyer" is a term that has always made me giggle a bit.
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2016-04-19, 08:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
I like how you leave out the part that talks about not having to house rule in AD&D.
In reality it was a kind of rivalry between two different major developers where they constantly contradicted each other, one saying no house rules should be used and the other saying house rules should be used if it makes more sense than the actual rules.Its bad when the DM has to twist and convolute the plot and world to prevent a player from breaking the game.
Started work on a 5E OGL SRD game that might get released on Drivethrurpg.com
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2016-04-19, 08:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
By "leave out the part" are you talking about the automatic quote removal in the GitP programming? Or are you claiming that he's ignoring the snippet from a magazine in favor of what's written in the actual DMG?
Or are you talking about a different quote altogether that you haven't bothered to post yet?
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2016-04-19, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
What?
Those were both Gary Gygax. I'm trying to see your logic, but I really can't. How do two quotes by the same person prove a "rivalry between two different major developers"? Especially since they go unnamed in your story. Are you allergic to being disproved?Spoiler: Quotes from the Playground
Adapting published monsters to Eberron: Naturalist's Guide to Eberron Latest: Annis Hag
Avatarial Awesomeness by Kymme!
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2016-04-19, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
The quoted passage suggests Gygax hoped AD&D would provide a more solid foundation for a game that wouldn't need house rules. It does not support your contention that "early D&D" didn't allow house rules. If anything, Gygax seems to have hoped that original D&D would continue to be the vehicle for rampant house ruling, experimentation, and customization. Again, from The Dragon:
Originally Posted by Gary GygaxIn reality it was a kind of rivalry between two different major developers where they constantly contradicted each other, one saying no house rules should be used and the other saying house rules should be used if it makes more sense than the actual rules.Last edited by Finieous; 2016-04-19 at 08:47 AM.
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2016-04-19, 09:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
The accepted answer to this question: http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questio...and-mentzer-dd gives the big overview of the rivalry.
"Holmes presents the game as rules to be followed. Moldvay presents the game as guidelines to be considered." quote from the link above.Last edited by NewDM; 2016-04-19 at 09:09 AM.
Its bad when the DM has to twist and convolute the plot and world to prevent a player from breaking the game.
Started work on a 5E OGL SRD game that might get released on Drivethrurpg.com
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2016-04-19, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-04-19, 09:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
I've got to say, as derails go, this is a most interesting one.
After years of disintoxication I'm back in the D&D tunnel
"I don’t understand God. I don’t understand how He could see the way people treat one another, and not chalk up the whole human race as a bad idea. I guess He’s just bigger about it than I would be."
Jim Butcher-Dresden Files, book 3
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2016-04-19, 09:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
Your entire evidence for that whole history of early D&D didn't allow for house rules is a single line on a blog doing historical comparisons of the early editions that states (without evidence) that one of the multiple authors and publishers wanted the rules to be followed?
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2016-04-19, 09:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
Spoiler: Quotes from the Playground
Adapting published monsters to Eberron: Naturalist's Guide to Eberron Latest: Annis Hag
Avatarial Awesomeness by Kymme!
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2016-04-19, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
It may not have been 'all' editions, however the 1E DMG has this to say:
"ADVANCED D&D is more than a framework around which individual DMs construct their respective milieux, it is above all a set of boundaries for all of the "worlds" devised by referees everywhere. These boundaries are broad and spacious, and there are numerous areas where they are so vague and amorphous as to make them nearly nonexistent, but they are there nonetheless."
Which indicates RAW is meant to be followed.
OD&D, 2E, 3.x, and 5e all say house rule whatever you want.Last edited by NewDM; 2016-04-19 at 09:25 AM.
Its bad when the DM has to twist and convolute the plot and world to prevent a player from breaking the game.
Started work on a 5E OGL SRD game that might get released on Drivethrurpg.com
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2016-04-19, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
Oh, don't get me wrong; it is a nice bit of history. I'm willing to believe it's accurate, only because there doesn't seem to be any reason for it not to be and they do provide some citations.
However, the statement in question was not one of the statements that came with a citation; it was simply stated.
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2016-04-19, 09:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
Dr. Holmes was hired to edit OD&D into a form more accessible to new players. Moldvay and Cook were tasked with creating a new edition of D&D. Notably, neither was original D&D, so neither should be used to support a contention that "original D&D didn't allow house rules." I've never seen any evidence for a "rivalry" between Holmes and Moldvay.
Stepping back to original D&D, there were big differences in the way Gygax and Arneson ran OD&D. Here's what Gygax had to say about it in A&E in 1975:
Originally Posted by Gary Gygax
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2016-04-19, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
I don't think you can pick and choose a quote that says the book is a framework while ignoring the quotes which says to cut out rules as necessary.
From the introduction:
"Read how and why the system is as it is, follow the parameters, and then cut portions as needed to maintain excitement." It then goes on to explain how and why you can cut out portions of the game you don't like to improve the quality of the game.
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2016-04-19, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
Its bad when the DM has to twist and convolute the plot and world to prevent a player from breaking the game.
Started work on a 5E OGL SRD game that might get released on Drivethrurpg.com
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2016-04-19, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-04-19, 10:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
Actually, I draw the opposite conclusion. That says to me that there's plenty of room within the game prescribed by the rules for my game, which doesn't pressure me to follow strict RAW. So rule 0 and house rules were allowed in the game from the beginning. Appropriate, when you consider that the game was originally just a bunch of house rules.
Spoiler: Quotes from the Playground
Adapting published monsters to Eberron: Naturalist's Guide to Eberron Latest: Annis Hag
Avatarial Awesomeness by Kymme!
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2016-04-19, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-04-19, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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2016-04-19, 04:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
@narsil
He was referring to a picture on a box that held the Holmes game. I still have it.
Nothing can, because house rules were the habit, not the exception, in the early going.
NewDM is Dead Wrong.
Back when D&D was new, they almost never used house rules. They were more like military exercises requiring precise execution to work properly.
Since I played Chainmail, OD&D, Holmes, and AD&D 1e A Lot -- Moldvay/Mentzer, 2e a bit -- I actually know how they worked and where folks used to fill in the blanks. {scrubbed}
1. In the 1st edition of AD&D, the DMG explicitly encourages DMs to house rule. E G Gygax brings this up time and again in his various expositions in that tome.
2. The foundation for house rules as the norm were laid In The Beginning.
See Wilderness and Underworld Adventures, TSR, 1974, Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, Volume 3 of OD&D, page 36. Italics and bolds added by me to spell it out more clearly.
AFTERWARD:
There are unquestionably areas which have been glossed over. While we deeply regret the necessity, space requires that we put in the essentials only, and the
trimming will oftimes have to be added by the referee and his players.
We have attempted to furnish an ample framework, and building should be both easy and fun. In this light, we urge you to refrain from writing for rule interpretations or the like unless you are absolutely at a loss, for everything herein is fantastic, and the best way is to decide how you would like it to be, and then make it just that way!
On the other hand, we are not loath to answer your questions, but why have us do any more of your imagining for you? Write to us and tell about your additions, ideas, and what have you. We could always do with a bit of improvement in our refereeingLast edited by Roland St. Jude; 2016-04-20 at 12:07 AM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2016-04-19, 07:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Am I doing 5e wrong!
Last edited by 2D8HP; 2016-04-19 at 10:40 PM. Reason: Rules! Not "rues", sheesh!