OOTS #1049 - The Discussion Thread

[Snails]

Ya, if you really want a historically consistent background, you need to play Ars Magica. Ars is set explicitly in Europe 1220AD -- well, "Mythic Europe", the Europe that the Europeans of the time believed in. Henry III is still King of England, but there are faeries in the Black Forest, dragons in the Alps, and Devil really is after your immortal soul. But the parts of the source books that deal with the realistic parts of the setting really do go into a lot of details about weapons and armor and social class and what a "day in the life of a peasant" looks like. Obviously, it's still an RPG, so most things are boiled down to a number or two, and the base source book covers all of Europe which makes it a bit vague, but if you want historical accuracy -- and you have a bunch of friends who really like doing historical research -- it can be a good basis.

Ars Magica is a good choice because it is explicitly set in Mythic Europe, and there is charm to campaigning in a somewhat familiar world. The mechanics are lighter weight than D&D, which can be either better or worse, depending on the audience.

There are other games that took an even deeper dive into the details, but are not set in a real world historical place. Specifically, I would recommend looking at the Harnmaster RPG by Columbia Games and its Harnworld setting.

Another game worth mentioning is Chivalry & Sorcery, which went through 4 editions by various publishers -- it looks like you can find a PDF bundle for not much cost. The original 1st edition C&S predated AD&D, and was very innovative in a number of ways, although rather too rules heavy for most tastes; late editions are much cleaner.

Both these games were created by serious aficionados of history, who tried to set a highly consistent technology level as the campaign base.

[F.Harr]

Ars Magica sounds cool.

Oh no! Poor rocs!

Personally, I think the up-and-down pointing propellers effect the trim of the boat. So you can move around freely on board and even pitch the thing.

Also, I would hope that they can squeeze the helium to manage their boyancy.

Yay! Art wins! Actually, I like engineering and science. s:|

[KorvinStarmast]

Another game worth mentioning is Chivalry & Sorcery, which went through 4 editions by various publishers -- it looks like you can find a PDF bundle for not much cost. The original 1st edition C&S predated AD&D,

Having played a 1e C&S campaign, I would like to point out that by "predated" AD&D (1e) it beat the DMG to the presses.

Neat game, by the way, but rules heavy. Man, we had a lot of fun with C&S.

[8BitNinja]

I'm surprised that Roy and Elan were not worried about the falling rocks.

Because when rocks fall, everyone dies

[nyjastul69]

Having played a 1e C&S campaign, I would like to point out that by "predated" AD&D (1e) it beat the DMG to the presses.

Neat game, by the way, but rules heavy. Man, we had a lot of fun with C&S.

C&S('77) beat not only the DMG('79) to press it also beat the PH('78). The MM('77) was the first AD&D book released for that system. I don't know what months C&S or the MM were released. It could possibly have beaten all three AD&D books to press.

[KorvinStarmast]

C&S('77) beat not only the DMG('79) to press it also beat the PH('78). The MM('77) was the first AD&D book released for that system. I don't know what months C&S or the MM were released. It could possibly have beaten all three AD&D books to press.

My memory vaguely recalls that the MM came out first, but you may be right.

Here's what the wiki article said, since it was published after GenCon 77.

They intended to present it to Gary Gygax at Gen Con in 1977,[2] but changed their minds once at the Con, where they met Scott Bizar who wrote out a letter of intent.[3] After some final changes to get rid of the last remnants of D&D[3] (e.g. the game contained a table of "Saving-throws" similar to D&D), Simbalist and Backhaus published the first edition of their game - now renamed Chivalry & Sorcery - shortly after the release of the first edition of Advanced D&D.

I had forgotten that they beat the PHB to the game store shelves.

[DeliaP]

I was expecting at any moment Roy to say, "It works by magic!" Which is the always-works cop out for hard physics questions.

Well "A wizard did it." is now the standard joke way of handwaving stuff that doesn't make sense (it came from a Lucy Lawless sketch on SNL, I think?, where she used it as a response to every single question that a fan kept asking her about continuity failures on Xena) and that's what Elan just assumed.

And, I'd guess, the deeper joke is that trying to seriously give an explanation for that stuff that doesn't really make sense, actually doesn't make for a good story. Or a good joke. Because, you know, a joke tends to get killed when it gets over explained. Because that explanation takes up a lot of time and space which could be used on more interesting things like plot, character development or cool splash panels. Or jokes. So probably not worth going into all that detail over and over again because it would get quite boring. Maybe saying "A wizard did it" would just make the story flow better. Which, come to think of it, Elan would instinctively know, being a bard and all. But Roy would want to be all serious and explain it. Which wouldn't work very well because that wouldn't be funny. Unless the Giant was writing it, because then he'd sneakily drop in an "A wizard did it" line as a throwaway line of Elan, while going on to actually make a funny joke out of it, by subverting all of that and turning the boring explanation into a funny joke itself. Just as long as no-one tries to write some overlong explanation of the joke, because that would kill it, really.

I'm surprised that Roy and Elan were not worried about the falling rocks.

Because when rocks fall, everyone dies

+1 Internet to you.

[KorvinStarmast]

I hate to say this, but Roy's at least a little bit wrong. There is more than gas providing lift on the Mechane.

If you look at the Mechane, you see on the rear of the ship four propellers. Two are aligned with the fore and aft axis of the ship. Obviously, those provide thrust the way a ship's propeller's provide thrust.

There are also two propellers pointing straight up. They are rotating. They must provide at least some lift. I am going to guess that they are positioned in the rear of the ship as a consequence of the machinery providing drive being in the rear of the ship. They would account for the problems with Center of Gravity that would arise were they not there to provide lift/trim to keep the ship more or less level in flight.

Question: is that ship modeled off of something in D&D 3 or 3.5 splat book, a dragon magazine article, or is it a pure invention of the author?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

(it came from a Lucy Lawless sketch on SNL, I think?, where she used it as a response to every single question that a fan kept asking her about continuity failures on Xena)

The Simpsons, actually.

GW

[Jasdoif]

I hate to say this, but Roy's at least a little bit wrong. There is more than gas providing lift on the Mechane.

So which part of Roy's "the basic lift is provided by nonmagical physics" actually runs counter to that?

Question: is that ship modeled off of something in D&D 3 or 3.5 splat book, a dragon magazine article, or is it a pure invention of the author?

It looks a cross between multiple Final Fantasy's airships. Which isn't surprising, since FFVI's airship and its playable characters made an appearence.

[Snails]

There are also two propellers pointing straight up. They are rotating. They must provide at least some lift. I am going to guess that they are positioned in the rear of the ship as a consequence of the machinery providing drive being in the rear of the ship. They would account for the problems with Center of Gravity that would arise were they not there to provide lift/trim to keep the ship more or less level in flight.

You may be correct, but it is hard to say for certain. If you are correct, then if the Mechane were to lose all power to the propellers, the ship would tilt dangerously, possibly throwing crew over the side to their deaths. That makes it nearly impossible to do any kind of repairs to the engines or propeller gearing without landing first. Seems like a design flaw in a vessel that can expect to see combat.

We need to see the Mechane make a desperate vertical direction getaway to know for certain. Does it use those vertical propellers for lift or to tilt the main axis?

[KorvinStarmast]

So which part of Roy's "the basic lift is provided by nonmagical physics" actually runs counter to that?

All he described was helium versus mass/weight. Error by omission. Whatever else he might understand was overtaken by the problem with that lovely splash page curtailing further conversation.

[KorvinStarmast]

You may be correct, but it is hard to say for certain. If you are correct, then if the Mechane were to lose all power to the propellers, the ship would tilt dangerously, possibly throwing crew over the side to their deaths.

Not necessarily. Take a look at the principle of autorotation. The Mechane likely descends, and I agree that it would likely descend at least a little nose low, but the two props would likely act as a rotor head does during an engine-out descent. (Yes, I am reading way more into this than necessary). Or it might work another way thanks to the steampunkish art of gnomes.

I do appreciate Jasdoif's link to the FF farce in cliffport, and the similarity in concept between Mechane and that airship.

[Jasdoif]

All he described was helium versus mass/weight.

But that is the basic lift, its boring job is simply keeping the airship in the air...or at least reducing the rate of descent. The propellers aren't basic, they have the fancy job of providing maneuvering control for the whole airship.

I suspect Roy was actually trying to avoid giving Elan an idea to wear one of those propeller hats to "help out"...but he's still technically correct in his word choice

[KorvinStarmast]

But that is the basic lift, its boring job is simply keeping the airship in the air...or at least reducing the rate of descent. The propellers aren't basic, they have the fancy job of providing maneuvering control for the whole airship.

There's more to it than lift, there's stability ...
Airship (no magic)

Airship in action (no magic)

Anyway, this whole conversation got me to looking into the Ebberon airships and they are kinda cool.

[Kantaki]

There's more to it than lift, there's stability ...
Airship (no magic)

Airship in action (no magic)

Anyway, this whole conversation got me to looking into the Ebberon airships and they are kinda cool.

But if you want to explain the way the Mechane flies (and how it differs from a magical airship) -especially if you are talking to someone like Elan- starting with the fact that the helium-ballon provides the basic lift that allows the ship to get airborne is a good idea, even if because it simplifies things (not enough in Elan’s case). Once you have established that you can explain the more complicated aspects of mundane-ish flight like the fact that (and how) the rotors provide additional lift and stabilization and the propulsion you need to get anywhere.
But to answer the questions „How do we stay in the air without magic” and „Why don't we float away” Roy’s answer is sufficient. Or would be if he were talking to anyone else.

[littlebum2002]

Could it be that the vertical propellers are simply there to steer the ship, similar to the rotors on a rotor ship? Perhaps if they go out the worst that happens is the ship just keeps going in a straight line.

[8BitNinja]

+1 Internet to you.

I'll put this on the large pile of internet I already have.

[War-Wren]

Well "A wizard did it." is now the standard joke way of handwaving stuff that doesn't make sense (it came from a Lucy Lawless sketch on SNL, I think?, where she used it as a response to every single question that a fan kept asking her about continuity failures on Xena) and that's what Elan just assumed.

And, I'd guess, the deeper joke is that trying to seriously give an explanation for that stuff that doesn't really make sense, actually doesn't make for a good story. Or a good joke. Because, you know, a joke tends to get killed when it gets over explained. Because that explanation takes up a lot of time and space which could be used on more interesting things like plot, character development or cool splash panels. Or jokes. So probably not worth going into all that detail over and over again because it would get quite boring. Maybe saying "A wizard did it" would just make the story flow better. Which, come to think of it, Elan would instinctively know, being a bard and all. But Roy would want to be all serious and explain it. Which wouldn't work very well because that wouldn't be funny. Unless the Giant was writing it, because then he'd sneakily drop in an "A wizard did it" line as a throwaway line of Elan, while going on to actually make a funny joke out of it, by subverting all of that and turning the boring explanation into a funny joke itself. Just as long as no-one tries to write some overlong explanation of the joke, because that would kill it, really.



+1 Internet to you.

And +1 to you, too. I saw what you did! I read between the lines

[GreyTraveller]

Perhaps if they go out the worst that happens is the ship just keeps going in a straight line.

Well, that is the shortest distance between two jokes.

[8BitNinja]

Here's a head scratcher for you.

If Mr. Burlew didn't want to use "a wizard did it" then why did the wizard conjure the helium? Also, where is the ship's wizard. It can't be V, so who is it?

[factotum]

"A wizard did it" means, in this case, "A wizard enchanted the hull of our ship along with a magical doodad that refreshes the supply of helium in the balloon". There's no necessity for the wizard to be along for the ride, any more than a wizard needs to be present to maintain the magical enchantment on Roy's +5 greatsword.

[goodpeople25]

Well the strip never specified a wizard (the class) did it, and we saw a possible cleric crewmember back in #952.
Plus clerics get planeshift earlier anyway (though just getting helium from a plane could be a lower level spell and that might be more suitable for arcane magic, and a spell that works that I don't know about could already exist)

Or what factotum said.

[Rift_Wolf]

The helium might well extinguish the flames, depending upon the location of the fire.

Semi-related note, I used to work with superconductors and lots of liquid helium and liquid nitrogen.

Stuff is incredibly dangerous, especially when the superconductor quenches and converts the liquid He or N to gaseous He or N. It's a huge change in volume and if not properly vented it can shove all the air out of a room and suffocate you before you even know its happened.

Q

Just a question about this; is the safety procedures different for the two gases? I'm wondering because helium is light while nitrogen is much heavier. Without understanding the exact physics, helium would fill an enclosed space from the ceiling down (like smoke) while nitrogen would fill from the floor up (like dry ice). I'll freely admit I'm not a chemist and shouldn't be allowed unsupervised access to liquid anything.

[Peelee]

Just a question about this; is the safety procedures different for the two gases? I'm wondering because helium is light while nitrogen is much heavier. Without understanding the exact physics, helium would fill an enclosed space from the ceiling down (like smoke) while nitrogen would fill from the floor up (like dry ice). I'll freely admit I'm not a chemist and shouldn't be allowed unsupervised access to liquid anything.

Air is almost 80% nitrogen. I think it's something like 79% nitrogen, 20% oxygen, and 1% other. The N₂ would likely disseminate more or less evenly throughout the room, I'd imagine.

[factotum]

Air is almost 80% nitrogen. I think it's something like 79% nitrogen, 20% oxygen, and 1% other. The N₂ would likely disseminate more or less evenly throughout the room, I'd imagine.

Nitrogen is *slightly* denser than the mix of gasses that make up air (density of air at STP is 1.225 kg/m^3, nitrogen is 1.251), so it would tend to sink if there wasn't some sort of agitation mixing it in with the air already in the room. Also, Quibbilicious is talking about liquid nitrogen going gaseous, so perforce the gas would be very cold and thus denser still than the warm air in the room.

[Valley]

Take THAT Science!


Rocs? I hate Rocs...a Roc killed my last Dwarf Adventurer in DF Adventure Mode. Bloody Rocs.

Still, story is going strong.

[Yendor]

Nitrogen is *slightly* denser than the mix of gasses that make up air (density of air at STP is 1.225 kg/m^3, nitrogen is 1.251), so it would tend to sink if there wasn't some sort of agitation mixing it in with the air already in the room. Also, Quibbilicious is talking about liquid nitrogen going gaseous, so perforce the gas would be very cold and thus denser still than the warm air in the room.

Air at STP (100kPa, 0°C) is 1.275 kg/m^3. It's 1.225 kg^3 at 15°C. Nitrogen is lighter than air; the other significant components of air are all heavier than nitrogen.

[brian 333]

Whenever I wonder what it is about The Giant's work that is so compelling, I discover it is the details, the amazing variety and depth of details, that make his world seem so real when we know it can't exist at all. For example: Falling Rocs. I'd never have thought of that one, nor do I know anyone else who would have.

Then there was some boring technical stuff I never bothered to read. Plus, if Redcloak can summon Silicone Elementals, I don't see why another wizard couldn't summon a Hydrogen one.

[Peelee]

Then there was some boring technical stuff I never bothered to read. Plus, if Redcloak can summon Silicone Elementals, I don't see why another wizard couldn't summon a Hydrogen one.

Helium.

Also, the summon duration for wizards would be a bit taxing