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2017-03-11, 06:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
If he wasn't able to be slingshot across the board I'm not sure he'd really be viable even at his current price. He's basically an old fashioned Distraction Carnifex without some way to move faster, enough plasma/las/grav/rending will drop him no matter how tough he is, and a Knight Gallant has something like a 56% chance to drop him in one round.
Are they really overcosted? Or did things come out much later that were undercosted, and the new hotness?thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2017-03-11, 06:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
He can only LOS to units from the Victrix Guard formation, and it's a terrible formation so it's unlikely to see play. Unless he's waddling up the board with four units of footslogging Sternguard babysitting him he's not getting LOS.
They did not feel overcosted back before grav in particular meant large targets more or less had to fly to survive.Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2017-03-11, 07:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
He can only LOS to units from the Victrix Guard formation, and it's a terrible formation so it's unlikely to see play. Unless he's waddling up the board with four units of footslogging Sternguard babysitting him he's not getting LOS.
Not so sure of that myself, I started back in 5th and MCs were already on their way out just as a result of missiles and plasma. Grav just cemented the decline of the ones with armour saves and no invulnerables, and Greater Daemons got kneecapped by the loss of EW and going from a 4++ to 5++.
Comparing that a grav cannon with 5 shots seems a little absurd. Its certainly no wonder that regular big monsters are no longer viable in most cases.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2017-03-11, 08:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
Sicarius, 1 Honour Guard unit, 4 Vanguard Veterans/Sternguard Veterans units, no transports allowed. Everyone gets +1WS/BS and Guilliman can LOS to them if within 3".
It did not feel nearly as bad then though. Missiles only had one shot each. Most plasma did have 2, but it were at a lower strenght, and usually with the risk of overheated.
Comparing that a grav cannon with 5 shots seems a little absurd. Its certainly no wonder that regular big monsters are no longer viable in most cases.Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2017-03-11, 10:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Tharggy, on Tellene
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
MCs where partially dieing because of that goddawful 5th ed Nid Codex. I mean, besides Nids it was really just Daemons who had MCs and they still had Eternal Warrior in 5th, so they where fine.
As to Guilliman, he should have been 400. We all know it, hes a giant beatstick that buffs and can come back from the dead on a 4+, that is a lot of crazy stuff. The thing i find funny is, is that im still pretty sure more people are gonna buy the Forgeworld Guilliman if the want to field him, as the GW on looks like they talked to a 12 year old for design inspiration.
"He should be covered in gold and wield a giant flaming sword!!!!"
I mean, i guess you do get two good looking models in that box, but im still not gonna buy it cuz the only guy i really want is Voldus, and ill just make him myself.
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2017-03-11, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- WI, USA
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2017-03-11, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- Tharggy, on Tellene
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
They really do deserve it, i mean, outside of Dark Eldar, im pretty sure they have the least amount of stuff dedicated to them. They got one book with some formations? And it wasnt even like the Nids from that one either, who got really good ones, iirc the Cron ones from there are kinda meh.
Well the Burning One wasn't but then they said you need to use a Transcendent C'tan and everybody said f*** that.
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2017-03-11, 12:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
Oh grav is certainly horrible, but MCs were being slaughtered by heavy weapons long before it was a thing. The problem is guns being cheap and MCs being expensive for their statline. Though grav either needs to lose most of it's shots or face a steep price hike.
As for what should happen to grav, then i dont know. A reduction in the number of shots it have would certainly do a lot. But i prefer the idea of letting plasma be the monster/heavy infantery killer, and instead give grav some other function entirely. Like make units hit move as if they were in difficult/dangerous terrain or something. I believe like it function in 30k right now.
Of course, what i think is really needed is a complete reset like we had going from 2nd to 3rd edition.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2017-03-11, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Tharggy, on Tellene
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
The problem is, 30k Grav sucks. The best rework i've seen of Grav is that its get better the bigger the target is.
Normal Infantry 5+
Bulky 4+
Very Bulky 3+
Extremely Bulky 2+
This puts it as the Monster killer yet, but Plasma's job is now dealing with 2+ Infantry, like Meganobs and Honor Guard
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2017-03-11, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
I don't think a dedicated anti-MC gun is needed, there's not really much that can be done that won't also massacre other units and wind up being undercosted or overcosted into brokenness.
MCs are supposed to be a cross between heavy infantry and vehicles, and pre-grav they were mostly vulnerable to anti-tank and anti-heavy infantry weapons, like krak missiles, plasma, Dark Lances and so on. That was fine, but they often cost too many points, Greater Daemons in 5th were actually very good in my experience, being hard to kill but not impossible for the enemy to take down but Tyranids suffered since MCs ran 200+ points and weren't really good enough to justify it a lot of the time, though not as badly as they suffer now.
The problem is undercosted MCs like Riptides who can massacre their way through the units that should be gunning them down and have a 3++ to shrug off the attempts to kill them with dedicated guns, so you need good ap and lots of shots, but that then overkills any MC without an invulnerable, and the specific implementation also kills everything else.
Grav was an answer to Wraithknights and Riptides, the former with a 5++ and 5+++, the latter with a 3++ and access to 5+++. If the former was properly costed at 400 points base 500 points upgraded, and the latter was either locked to a 5++ or one nova charge per game or cost 100 more points, grav wouldn't have been necessary as lascannons, missiles and plasma would have been able to take either down with no real issue.
It also makes it an ogryn, biker, cavalry, and Tyranids in general killer. It seems unfair to me for it to wound Tyranid Warriors/Venomthropes/Zoanthropes/Tyrant Guard/Hive Guard and Ogryn on a 2+, there's already enough weapons that punish them.Last edited by Grim Portent; 2017-03-11 at 12:52 PM.
Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.
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2017-03-11, 01:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
I agree, i would have preferred if it had never existed, but its here now, and we are kinda stuck with it, we just need to figure out what to do with the bloody thing.
I guess we could make it hit everything on a 4+ (like lesser Fleshbane) with AP - (its got the number of shots, and toss Concussive on it?
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2017-03-11, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
The Swarmlord was always overpriced. I don't think I've ever seen that model successfully used. Though for different reasons over the ages. In the past you could simply make a cheaper Hive Tyrant that was only slightly worse then the Swarmlord, that did 90% of what you wanted the Swarmlord to do, plus being more mobile for having wings.
Agreed. Vehicles, Gargantuans, Super-heavies, psykers, flying, and jinking all could use a change as well.
I'd either drop it's shots down by a lot, like one shot at 48, 2 shots at 24. Or make it wound off of the target's strength value/make the target take a bunch of strength tests. Because being strong is how you'd resist it. Or it still wounds off armor, but you get a strength test to save it.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2017-03-11, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2011
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- Oxford, UK
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
I'll repeat my suggestion that Grav should be blasts rather than multiple shot, allowing it to still kill terminators, but not to also erase vehicles so easily. That does mean Monstrous Creatures are tougher against it, but damn, throw them a bone.
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2017-03-11, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
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2017-03-11, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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2017-03-11, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- Tharggy, on Tellene
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
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2017-03-11, 02:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
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2017-03-11, 02:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
I'm of the opinion that small blasts need to at least able to be snap fire (even if with some caveat like rerolling direct hits or not subracting BS from scatter). 1d6 scatter for normal shots would also be good.
“Stupid entropy ruins everything.”
-Jennifer Ouellette
My divine portfolio (cred goes to Jormengand):SpoilerBobby, the Twist in Time
Divine Rank: 4
Deity of: Twisted Truth, Time
Symbol: A pair of wings made of fossils
Alignment: True Neutral
Worshipers: Archaeologists, forgers
Cleric Alignments: Any neutral
Domains: Artifice, Creation, Knowledge, Time
Favoured Weapon: Longsword
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2017-03-11, 03:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
Grav was an answer to Wraithknights and Riptides, the former with a 5++ and 5+++, the latter with a 3++ and access to 5+++. If the former was properly costed at 400 points base 500 points upgraded, and the latter was either locked to a 5++ or one nova charge per game or cost 100 more points, grav wouldn't have been necessary as lascannons, missiles and plasma would have been able to take either down with no real issue.
The Swarmlord was always overpriced. I don't think I've ever seen that model successfully used. Though for different reasons over the ages. In the past you could simply make a cheaper Hive Tyrant that was only slightly worse then the Swarmlord, that did 90% of what you wanted the Swarmlord to do, plus being more mobile for having wings.
Agreed. Vehicles, Gargantuans, Super-heavies, psykers, flying, and jinking all could use a change as well.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2017-03-11, 03:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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- Central Illinois
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
That Heralds of Ruin Kill Team mini-tourney is later today. Here's my semi final list:
Spoiler: One's a robot, the other's a fascist: together, they fight crime!Leader:
Peltast Alpha (taser goad, conversion field, mindscrambler grenade, incense generator)
Core:
Secutarii Peltasts (x10; enhanced data tether)
Skitarii Vanguard (x5)
Inquisition Acolyte Squad (hot shot lasguns)
Special:
Ordo Xeno Interrogator (hot shot lasgun)
Inquisitorial Chimera (double heavy bolters, psybolt ammunition)
The plan is to put the inquisitor and his goons inside the Chimera, and use all those delicious S6 shots and the five firing ports to let him and his boys roll around and shoot stuff. The Peltasts will shred through infantry out in the open (Math-hammer tells me that they should kill ~6 meqs a turn with the flechette shots, and God help any GEQs that cross their path) and can fill other roles as needed with their special ammunition. The Alpha and the Vanguards will be a nice little surprise in melee, as Vanguard will drop enemy T by 1 and put MEQs under the ID threshold for the taser goad. I'm hoping to bait the enemy leader into charging into my oh-so vulnerable tin men. As transports go, the hope is to glance them to death or just ignore them depending on the situation.Last edited by Bobby Baratheon; 2017-03-11 at 03:53 PM.
“Stupid entropy ruins everything.”
-Jennifer Ouellette
My divine portfolio (cred goes to Jormengand):SpoilerBobby, the Twist in Time
Divine Rank: 4
Deity of: Twisted Truth, Time
Symbol: A pair of wings made of fossils
Alignment: True Neutral
Worshipers: Archaeologists, forgers
Cleric Alignments: Any neutral
Domains: Artifice, Creation, Knowledge, Time
Favoured Weapon: Longsword
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2017-03-11, 03:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2008
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- Canada
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
It's not like it actually fixes things either. It just means one other army actually has an answer to it. Meanwhile everyone else is in the same boat as before.
Oh it could and would do that certainly. But you could make a melee Hive Tyrant that was not quite as good in CC, but still pretty scary. For less points and a 12 inch move.
They've got a bunch of minor issues with them. For example, the 6 roll for stomp. Why is that a removes from play instead of a strength D hit? Also the 12 inch move. Them being really big is not an acceptable excuse, not when that's never mattered before for other models.
As for vehicles, well they've always had the issue of 'I paid 150+ points for the model and you just killed it in one hit. Meanwhile your MC will take 3-6 hits to kill, likely more, no matter what'. Just make vehicle a type and get rid of the damage tables and Armor Values altogether. It's not like they made much sense anyways. Not when MCs don't have a similar thing.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
I Fell in Love with a Storm: MLP
Procrastination: MLP
Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2017-03-11, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
It's not like it actually fixes things either. It just means one other army actually has an answer to it. Meanwhile everyone else is in the same boat as before.
I mean, its hard to ignore why Cheese ramble so much about them, after having seen just what sort of damage they can do. I almost suspect that against most types of targets Grav bikes offer more killing power than Wraithguards. And they got freaking S D weapons.
Oh it could and would do that certainly. But you could make a melee Hive Tyrant that was not quite as good in CC, but still pretty scary. For less points and a 12 inch move.
So a tradeoff.
They've got a bunch of minor issues with them. For example, the 6 roll for stomp. Why is that a removes from play instead of a strength D hit? Also the 12 inch move. Them being really big is not an acceptable excuse, not when that's never mattered before for other models.
As for vehicles, well they've always had the issue of 'I paid 150+ points for the model and you just killed it in one hit. Meanwhile your MC will take 3-6 hits to kill, likely more, no matter what'. Just make vehicle a type and get rid of the damage tables and Armor Values altogether. It's not like they made much sense anyways. Not when MCs don't have a similar thing.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2017-03-11, 05:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-03-11, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
Maybe if they're lasgun hits, but anything larger is going to cause an issue. The (over)abundance of extremely effective anti-vehicle weaponry is pretty brutal for mech armies. Take a look at how much haywire some of the Admech armies can spit out, and then remember how nasty meltaguns and meltabombs are for the low, low price of 10 and 5 points respectively.
“Stupid entropy ruins everything.”
-Jennifer Ouellette
My divine portfolio (cred goes to Jormengand):SpoilerBobby, the Twist in Time
Divine Rank: 4
Deity of: Twisted Truth, Time
Symbol: A pair of wings made of fossils
Alignment: True Neutral
Worshipers: Archaeologists, forgers
Cleric Alignments: Any neutral
Domains: Artifice, Creation, Knowledge, Time
Favoured Weapon: Longsword
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2017-03-11, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- Tharggy, on Tellene
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
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2017-03-11, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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- Central Illinois
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
“Stupid entropy ruins everything.”
-Jennifer Ouellette
My divine portfolio (cred goes to Jormengand):SpoilerBobby, the Twist in Time
Divine Rank: 4
Deity of: Twisted Truth, Time
Symbol: A pair of wings made of fossils
Alignment: True Neutral
Worshipers: Archaeologists, forgers
Cleric Alignments: Any neutral
Domains: Artifice, Creation, Knowledge, Time
Favoured Weapon: Longsword
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2017-03-11, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- Tharggy, on Tellene
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
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2017-03-11, 06:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
That hasn't been true since the end of 5th Edition.
Maybe if they're lasgun hits, but anything larger is going to cause an issue. The (over)abundance of extremely effective anti-vehicle weaponry is pretty brutal for mech armies. Take a look at how much haywire some of the Admech armies can spit out, and then remember how nasty meltaguns and meltabombs are for the low, low price of 10 and 5 points respectively.
Besides that the abundance of anti-vehicle weapons are not in itself the problem. The problem is more that its needed because its possible to actually make mech armies in the first place. Since those armies are immune to small arm fire you straight up need a lot of anti-vehicle weapons to cover for that.
Meltaguns and meltabombs i think are a lot less of a problem than Grav weapons, due to their really short range. Here the problem is more that drop pods make delivery to easy, with limited options for counterplay.thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2017-03-11, 06:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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- Tharggy, on Tellene
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
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2017-03-11, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2012
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Re: Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute
MkIII marines and Tartaros Termies are up for pre-order now, but the interesting thing is the site says they can be added to a Space Marines or Chaos Space Marines force, so we might be seeing rules for the termies to be taken in Chaos armies, which could be interesting since we got stiffed on Cataphracti.
Sanity is nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.